poll Are characters balanced?

[Jessie_]

3 minutes ago, Canis said:

As someone who made a large thread about the game's balance and attempted to propose changes to fix them on a large scale, I can tell you one thing:

Don't.

proposing changes wasn't the problem with that thread, it was all the weird nonsense like claiming klei has "Newcomer Bias", presenting your opinions as "objective and un-biased", repeatedly calling yourself a "veteran" like that means anything, acting like you speak for every "veteran" of the game, asking for a ridiculous special "Veteran Closed Beta" available only to "select few trusted veterans" and that everyone that leaks secret features from it should be punished heavily, etc

your thread was just plainly inane

Spoiler

On 9/18/2019 at 4:13 AM, Canis said:

(Disclaimer: This is in no way meant to start a smear campaign towards Klei in any way. This was made as a way to help Klei find internal issues and fix them. In addition, this was proofread by several big names and experts in the community, just to deflect any bias accusations.)
 

 Klei Entertainment.
    Everyone's favorite video game company, without a doubt. They're genuinely great people that put the value of players over the value of money, unlike a large margin of the gaming industry. However, more and more of the community have started to worry in recent times, since Klei have made questionable decisions throughout 2019. The most prominent example is the recent Woodie rework. Even if we disregard it's rocky initial release, it still leaves Woodie mains with mixed feelings, and makes people that main characters like Wendy fearful as they don't want a complete reimagine of the character; They just an upgrade to make their character not suck. A "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, if you will.

So, without further dilly dally, let's go through objective, un-biased, and common worries regarding Klei, and their methods of working on Don't Starve Together. Possible solutions to these problems will also be provided, in hopes that Klei will take this to heart.

 

Newcomer Bias:
 Klei has seemingly made it apparent that they want to make a lot of mechanics easily accessible in early game, with a few notable exceptions (such as Willow still requiring beard hair for Bernie, and Warly's powerful crockpot recipes.). DST as a whole has become much easier with the addition to new characters, especially since a good portion of them don't have a downside. In the case of Wortox, he makes regaining health practically free. In addition, he has a new way of "dodging attacks". While this isn't a problem in of itself, he has 200 health on top of this, which allows him to be both a tank and a 'trickster' character. As for Winona, she has no practical downsides and has the ability to solo raid bosses with little to no combat effort on her end. The one time this year that Klei changed a character to flourish in mid-to-late game (Warly), it became absolutely broken in every sense of the word. For instance, a Wolfgang that's paired with Warly can do 600 damage per hit with the correct preparation. Six. Hundred. Damage. Even without Wolfgang's inherent x2 modifier, that's 300 damage for any other character. Back to Woodie, his rework has left Woodie mains disappointed. He is no longer "The Lumberjack" but now "The Canadian" that's a jack-of-all-trades character, which isn't exactly why Woodie mains picked him up in the first place. In short, people that have chosen to stick around for a long time and main a certain character are starting to feel alienated, or fearful for what's to come.
 
 It also goes without saying, but veterans to DST have been begging Klei to make the game harder for a long while now, whether the difficulty be optional, or progression-based. For these players, the game becomes extremely autonomous, repetitive, easy, and worst of all, boring. While yes, Klei has a lot of stuff on their plate in regards to 2019 and possibly 2020, the questionable part of this is that they haven't said a single word regarding this issue. This is problematic to say the least, as yes, there are always new players, the veterans to the game are the die-hard fans that keep this community alive.

 This goes into my next point quite smoothly.

Balancing Issues:
 People are starting to question whether Klei themselves actively play their own game. The fact that this is even up in the air is a red flag towards Klei's method of balancing things as of late. For example (again), the Woodie rework. The initial release was a train wreck, however it got better when Klei implemented community-made ideas. This was also a thing with the Winona update to an extent, although nowhere near as severe as Woodie. To make sure that severe mis-steps don't happen again and make everything smooth sailing, let's propose this idea to Klei:

Have a closed beta branch available to a select few trusted veterans within the community (the klei forums), chosen by Klei. In this branch, said veterans are able to test out the new character/mechanic/whatever and give Klei feedback. If these people give the beta code to other people, or leak the contents of the closed beta, they should be punished. (For example: If you willingly leak contents in the closed beta, your klei account could get temporarily suspended for, say, a month. Also, you'd lose access to the closed beta.)

What's the difference between this closed beta and a public beta?:
-The Veteran Closed Beta has much fewer people playtesting, however these people have been playing DST for a very long time, meaning that Klei would get more precise and useful feedback, and less non-helpful feedback.
-Veterans are part of the community, and are not Klei staff, meaning that they are well aware of the intricate details of what people want, and know what will spark drama. In addition, they can be used as a "safety net" of sorts to prevent problematic mechanics and aspects before it reaches a public build, saving time.
-Veterans have a clear vision on what "balanced" means in terms of Don't Starve Together, and are above the "Skill Level Plateau", meaning that they are easily able to grasp new mechanics, and apply them to normal gameplay, which is a good trait to have in terms of playtesters.
-A good portion of the veteran community wants to see DST be a better game as a whole, meaning that most of them are willing to happily volunteer their time and effort for Klei, without the need of a paycheck.

To be transparent, here are some possible downsides to this idea that should be considered:
-Veterans are not Klei employees, and they may be a liability depending on the person. (Such as leaking content early.)
-If they dont have a deadline, people will playtest on their own time. If they do have a deadline, it's possible that they'll be unable to playtest.

In addition, for things like Character Updates, Klei can seek after veterans that main that character, since their thoughts are arguably more important than anyone else's.

Now, on to the next topic that constantly sparks debate and discussion.

DST's Difficulty curve. (or rather, lack of one.)
 Granted, this is not an easily fixable thing, and will most likely take a long time to implement correctly, given the fact that Klei is currently working on a lot of updates. However, this needs to be talked about in detail because it is a valid problem with the game, and how Klei avoids talking about said problem, which is a shame since the terms "Uncompromising Survival" and "Trial and Error" has seemingly been lost to time. Survival games aren't meant to be easy.

In detail, here is a list of problems that most veterans have with DST:
-After Late Game, the player is usually never in any risk or danger; the game becomes less of a survival game and more of a base-building sandbox.
-In all stages of the game, it is easy to throw on a simple Football helmet and hambat and kite anything and everything that the game can throw at you.
-Insanity is laughably easy, and it has no real risk to a player that knows what they're doing, save for a select few situations.
-Most new and reworked characters lack an impactful downside.

Here are some possible solutions:

Make DST difficulty progression-based.
With the exception of hound waves, the difficulty of the game stays just about the same throughout the entire run. While each person has a different idea of difficulty, depending on who you ask, here's generally one that no one has a problem with.
When you accomplish a certain feat in the game, the world grows harder. For example, if you kill the Ancient Fuelweaver, Insanity would become more menacing to stay in, and Charlie could instantly kill players instead of hitting them for 100 (which is reduced to a measly 20 with a football helmet.)

An optional "Hardcore mode".
On world creation, there could be a "Server Difficulty" option to switch between "Default" and "Uncompromising". When the Uncompromising Difficulty is chosen and the world is generated, the following effects would take place.
-Dead players leave their dead body behind, in addition to becoming a ghost. Instead of giving a heart or amulet to the ghost, players now have to give the heart to the dead body. if they are attuned to an effigy, they can revive themselves. If the player was wearing a life amulet upon death, they'll be resurrected.
-Touchstones require to be touched by an individual player before they can resurrect with it. The way they'd resurrect would be similar to an effigy and/or singleplayer.
-When there are no living players in a server that are attuned to a meat effigy / touchstone, the world is deleted.
-Rollback is permanently disabled.
-In the server browser, worlds that have this setting enabled are marked with a special icon, and/or highlighted in red.

Of course, this mode would not be recommended for public servers. This Uncompromising Difficulty mode would be geared for those going out of their way for a challenge, and to make DST comparatively difficult to Singleplayer. Also, if Klei wants to add a temporary measure that they can get back to later, a "diet" version of the Uncompromising mode could make it so that servers only delete the world when nobody is left alive, and disables rollback.

Alternatively, we could borrow ideas from another survival game: Terraria. That game has something called "Expert Mode", which increases the stats of almost every enemy in the game, such as attack and defense, with a select few mobs gaining additional attacks. However, this is meant to be risk/reward, as Expert Mode bosses drop special and powerful drops that are usually used throughout the entire run.

All of these options have kept in mind the fact that newcomers struggle with the beginning of the game already. Hence, early-game is generally unaffected from these solutions unless the player goes out of their way to enable them. In addition, the "Uncompromising" mode could easily be implemented for the moment while Klei focuses on other things.

Those are all of the main problems that Klei and DST have that is currently upsetting the community. Klei is most likely reading this, as they do indeed lurk the forums. I encourage them to reply to this, whether it's assuring that they care, saying that we're wrong about a few points, or anything really. These are genuine concerns that a good portion of the community share, because just about every single one of us wants Klei - and DST - to be the best that it possibly can be.

 With love,
    Don't Starve Veterans.

 

@JoeW

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Speaking on my own personal bias now, as in, these are my (Canis') personal thoughts.

I have been a Woodie main for *at least* a year now. However, with this rework, I can't say that I want to keep playing as him. Yes, he's viable, but now he's just... bland.

Sometimes I (and other people on the forums) feel like they're not being heard in terms of initial character perks for these reworks. Yes, if it's small enough (or we create enough drama) Klei will most likely add it, but we shouldn't NEED to set the forums on fire just to have something added.

As of the Woodie update, my faith in Klei has been wavering, to say the least. Before this, I fully believed that Klei knows what they're doing, and they're fully transparent. However, the Woodie update was a kick in the rear end. I stopped being ignorant, and I realized that Klei has problems of their own, just like anyone else. They're not perfect.

However, I still love Klei, which is why I'm so hard on them. 

 

I still really hope that we at least get a response, as opposed to the other threads in this vain. (Granted, most threads "in this vain" are mainly just rant/vent threads, which this thread isn't.)

 

[Canis]

2 minutes ago, Jessie223 said:

proposing changes wasn't the problem with that thread, it was all the weird nonsense like claiming klei has "Newcomer Bias", presenting your opinions as "objective and un-biased", repeatedly calling yourself a "veteran" like that means anything, acting like you speak for every "veteran" of the game, asking for a ridiculous special "Veteran Closed Beta" available only to "select few trusted veterans" and that everyone that leaks secret features from it should be punished heavily, etc

your thread was just plainly inane

Drama bait.

It was objective, but I worded it poorly to the point where it didn't sound like it anymore. Mistakes happen..

[Jessie_]

4 minutes ago, Canis said:

Drama bait.

what? you brought it up first, i don't understand this accusation

4 minutes ago, Canis said:

It was objective, but I worded it poorly to the point where it didn't sound like it anymore. Mistakes happen..

i don't think you understand what the word "objective" means

it was a thread about your opinions, and how your opinions should affect klei's decision-making process

[Seero]

10 minutes ago, Canis said:

As someone who made a large thread about the game's balance and attempted to propose changes to fix them on a large scale, I can tell you one thing:

Don't.

I'm not scared of backlash from doing something out of good intent. People disagree with each other, it's normal. Even if discussion quality is potentially brought down because someone got too upset from disagreeing. Besides, we will never know without trying, and this is completely avoiding what the contents of this potential thread may be.

[me real life]

10 minutes ago, Canis said:

It was objective, but I worded it poorly to the point where it didn't sound like it anymore. Mistakes happen..

In what way was it objective? The very beginning of the thread claims Wortox has no downside, it's 100% your opinions based on your gameplay (or lack thereof, in the case of Wortox.)

[Canis]

35 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

In what way was it objective? The very beginning of the thread claims Wortox has no downside, it's 100% your opinions based on your gameplay (or lack thereof, in the case of Wortox.)

I say its objective (ie not solely my opinions) because I got several people to proofread it.

Christ, I mention the thread (that's more than a month* old now) and the fact that it's a mistake and drama gets sparked. I regret the thread, and every time someone brings it up I get a massive headache, but by all means, please continue if you want to restate things that have been told to me hundreds of times in the past.

[me real life]

3 minutes ago, Canis said:

I say its objective (ie not solely my opinions) because I got several people to proofread it.

"Objective" =/= an opinion that multiple people agree with.

ob·jec·tive

/əbˈjektiv/

adjective

1. 1.

   (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

   "historians try to be objective and impartial"

[Seero]

8 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

"Objective" =/= an opinion that multiple people agree with.

ob·jec·tive

/əbˈjektiv/

adjective

1. 1.

   (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

   "historians try to be objective and impartial"

A good word to replace objective with, in Canis' context it's "Credible" if multiple people agree with it

[JoeW]

How about we just get back to the topic please?

Keep it polite. Keep it constructive and on-topic and no personal attacks. 

Let's be better here. =) 

If you can't do that - just move on to another thread. This is a forum about video games, there is no reason to attack each other over things.

Thanks. 

[Siorm]

I personally really like that the characters are so diverse! (Well i mean they are not balanced, obviously). What i value the most it's the playstyle and unique interactions (quotes and lore). So i'm happy the way the game it is, but i'm all in with changes if that makes the character more fun and interesting.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I'm surprised Warly is doing the best so far, his advantages and disadvantages harmonize internally, but it feels like a mismatch for a world with winter, and what ought to be some nice perks are ultimately immaterial trivia.

He feels too incomplete to me, but so do Wormwood and Wurt.

 

 

[Zeklo]

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I'm surprised Warly is doing the best so far, his advantages and disadvantages harmonize internally, but it feels like a mismatch for a world with winter, and what ought to be some nice perks are ultimately immaterial trivia.

He feels too incomplete to me, but so do Wormwood and Wurt.

I kinda feel this.

Warly's 'advantage' seems like the kind of thing that's better for non-Warlys.

The glaring example being giving the Volt Food to Wolfgang.

It's neat being able to buff the team but at the same time he lacks that extra bit to make Warly himself fun to play.

His cooking mechanics and, to a lesser extent, how he handles hunger both seem like mechanics that would be great universally. It almost feels like a waste tagging it to a single character.

[Steve Raptor]

I think that Warly is Klei's greatest success at creating a "Big Advantage Vs Big Disadvantage" character.

[Steve Raptor]

54 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I kinda feel this.

Warly's 'advantage' seems like the kind of thing that's better for non-Warlys.

The glaring example being giving the Volt Food to Wolfgang.

It's neat being able to buff the team but at the same time he lacks that extra bit to make Warly himself fun to play.

His cooking mechanics and, to a lesser extent, how he handles hunger both seem like mechanics that would be great universally. It almost feels like a waste tagging it to a single character.

Although Warly really shines when played with other people, he is very enjoyable even when playing solo.

Hes food and seasoning gives him great tools to handle the majority of the game activities with a distinct advantage.

Honey seasoning turns him into a Pesudo-werebeaver and allows you to de-forest and empty rock biomes really fast, greatly improving resource gathering rates.

Pepper and garlic seasoning give you edge in all combat situations, especially versus bosses, which is really great

Hes unique food is the other great part of this character. Volt goat jelly + pepper turns you into a mighty Wolfgang and allows you to dish extraordinary damage especially during rain. Hes utility food is great in a variety of situations. He feels like a Jack of all trades master of nearly everything, even solo, and this feels great.

And he even "Scales" with the content updates, as he gets more features to play with.

He received a new seasoning option with salt in the "Return of them" and perhaps will get more stuff to cook in "Hook line and inker", as I assume will include deep-sea fishing.

 

[Zeklo]

1 minute ago, Steve Raptor said:

I do not agree here.

Although Warly really shines when played with other people, he is very enjoyable even when playing solo.

This is exactly it. He makes sense for solo for exactly the reasons you list, but in multiplayer he's just the errand cook who buffs everyone else.

Sure a buffed Warly can combat well but a buffed Wolfgang can do it better.

Sure a buffed Warly can chop well but a buffed Woodie can do it better.

At that point his purpose is just to make the food for those who will benefit from it more. Neat as a solo. More or less just a tool in multiplayer-and for a game that's about multiplayer it's a bit of a shame.

[Steve Raptor]

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

This is exactly it. He makes sense for solo for exactly the reasons you list, but in multiplayer he's just the errand cook who buffs everyone else.

Sure a buffed Warly can combat well but a buffed Wolfgang can do it better.

Sure a buffed Warly can chop well but a buffed Woodie can do it better.

At that point his purpose is just to make the food for those who will benefit from it more. Neat as a solo. More or less just a tool in multiplayer-and for a game that's about multiplayer it's a bit of a shame.

I agree with you, but I think you look at it in a negative light.

What you describe is a "Support Character", and this is exactly what they do.

They use their tools to help other characters who specialize in different roles, you may look at it as being a "Errand-man" or "cooking slave", but you can also look at it as being an extremely valuable team player that brings a lot of weight into the table. Those type of characters, not only in DST but in other games, are the one appreciated and respected the most by other players because they bring a lot of benefits to the team.

But Warly is not helpless by himself, he can fight and he can partake in group activities himself just like other characters, it doesn't sit on the line and cook 24/7.

In solo perspective, of-course wolfgang and woodie should be the best at what they do (otherwise it would be pointless to play them), the benefit of Warly is being able to do what both of those characters do although not topping the originals.

Finally, In addition to my solo session, I also have a session which I play with my sister (She plays wormwood). And it never feels like I'm doing my stuff and only serving her for her purposes. She helps me farm and grow crops and protect our base with traps.  In turn I cook for both of us and season our food, and together we go exploring and killing bosses and overcome stuff together with combined methods, it feels fair, and it never leaves you with a bad feeling of you being some kind of "slave" or anything like that, it feels like both of us bringing our strengths to the table and contributing each in hes own way.

[Zeklo]

19 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said:

I agree with you, but I think you look at it in a negative light.

Yeah I think it's just our personal tastes.

Trust me, when it comes to MOBAs, MMOs, or whatever I main supports. That's my thing.

It might just be how I've been playing Warly, or feeling their downside overshadows the benefits, or them not being too flashy. I'm not sure.

Its like if the Dark Sword was character exclusive. Being (practically) the best cost for result weapon of course it makes a character with it more viable but the reality is that it makes everyone with one more viable by the same amount. 

I guess it's the consequence of being an item-based character perk? It just feels like unnecessarily gated content instead of a character perk. Like I dunno. If Warly could cook recipes with three ingredients instead of four. That's an inseparable perk. It stays with them. It still helps others, just indirectly (and that's just an example for what I mean, not a suggestion).

But anyway, yeah I see your points I think it's just a fundamental factor of our preferences differing.

[CaptainChaotica]

Jesse.

If you have absolutely no interest in this thread, why the beep are you commenting on it?

In fact, if you think we're all DWEEBS...why are you even _on this forum_?  In your own words:  just go play the game.

Now, Canis--huh.  According to your original post on this thread, it looks like apparently the characters I like playing the most ARE the "balanced" ones, 'cos at least half the ones you gave three stars to are my favourites! 

...Notorious

[Jessie_]

5 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Jesse.

Jessie

5 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

If you have absolutely no interest in this thread, why the beep are you commenting on it?

i'm interested in why a lot of people seem to be terribly obsessed with "character balance", "character tier lists", "character roles", and such, however i apologise if i interrupted a discussion about them

5 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

In fact, if you think we're all DWEEBS...why are you even _on this forum_?  In your own words:  just go play the game.

each person is on a spectrum of dweebness at any given time, and it's a very mutable attribute

different activities apply different levels of dweebness among their participants

an activity i deem to be quite dweeby is assigning some form of value to characters based on "balance", "roles", etc which usually have arbitrary meanings and varies from person to person, yet people tend to argue about whose subjective views on a character or mechanic are more objective or not, so i do not get why people exert so much effort in this kind of activity

[Seero]

13 hours ago, Rosten said:

The characters aren't really balanced, and a few of them just don't really work in a multiplayer setting without everyone playing them (i.e. Webber, rip.) 

Webber is extremely good for farming silk,glands,monster meat, all which can be extremely useful to other players

Cooked monster meat has a very low stat cost considering it could be used as emergency food Or just general crockpot food.
Glands are for, well healing and sometimes reviving (although you should really have a booster shot ready or use life giving amulets).

And silk is just extremely useful but now it's even better because masts require a lot of silk.

9 hours ago, Zeklo said:

This is exactly it. He makes sense for solo for exactly the reasons you list, but in multiplayer he's just the errand cook who buffs everyone else.

 

from the replies on how this is more personal taste then anything, I think this affect warly has would be seen most in public servers. Not private servers with your friends.

 

 

Also, to comment on the poll currently, Wolfgang has the least votes (2.29% with 12 people) 

And Wigfrid/Wilson are tied (10.48% with 55 people)

Something bizarre is that, Woodie has more votes then Maxwell? Woodie has no downside - He's basically Wilson with an epic axe, if you don't use his idols, which yeah they have side effects but there not so much a downside because they're optional and have huge upsides when you use it.

Maxwell on the other hand, is smol 75 health baby

[Rosten]

6 minutes ago, Seero said:

Webber is extremely good for farming silk,glands,monster meat, all which can be extremely useful to other players

Cooked monster meat has a very low stat cost considering it could be used as emergency food Or just general crockpot food.
Glands are for, well healing and sometimes reviving (although you should really have a booster shot ready or use life giving amulets).

And silk is just extremely useful but now it's even better because masts require a lot of silk.

from the replies on how this is more personal taste then anything, I think this affect warly has would be seen most in public servers. Not private servers with your friends.

IMO Wendy is a lot better for farming spider stuff. Not that she's better at it than Webber, but she doesn't have the same debilitating downsides that Webber has in terms of things like not being able to be around pigs that affects the way the entire base has to be built instead of just being a personal thing, and she can pretty much do it to the point where you almost always have enough spider stuff anyways.

[Seero]

3 minutes ago, Rosten said:

IMO Wendy is a lot better for farming spider stuff. Not that she's better at it than Webber, but she doesn't have the same debilitating downsides that Webber has in terms of things like not being able to be around pigs that affects the way the entire base has to be built instead of just being a personal thing, and she can pretty much do it to the point where you almost always have enough spider stuff anyways.

Kill the Pigs, picking them off 1 by 1 isn't TOOO difficult. plus wendy has a .75x dmg modifier, webber is normal and averagely-strong as everyone else WITH more average health too.

[Terra_Zina]

DST is not a competitive game like the many mobas out there, so balancing is not as big of an issue as people make it out to be. However, I will agree that there are certain characters that are WAY out of everyone elses league. WAY overpowered.

I'm glancing specifically at Wortox as I'm typing this. He's got one of those character designs that made me think "there's no possible way they would actually make that", but oh boy they did. 20 hp a pop in a large aoe circle, free teleportation and an easy way of farming nightmare fuel. They really went all out on this guy.

Wickerbottom is stupidly busted aswell, but atleast she got the excuse that she came from a singleplayer game.

[Zeklo]

Yeah, 'balanced' tends to be one of two things in my opinion:

Is this character above or below the rest?
Does this character's downside match their upside (and vice versa)?

In a coop scenario I think the second is a better gauge, but it's important to make sure there's a reason to play each character so you can't just forget the first.

[b_legend]

Let's be honest Wicker and Wolfgang are broken OP