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Yank31

Opening bunker doors, for rockets, during meteor showers

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Yank31    21

When the sky is clear, my network quality is 100% so it's very easy and reliable, I open the doors 160 seconds after I receive the rocket signal.

When there is a meteor shower, my network quality drops to 0%, so now,my scanner will detect a returning rocket with a 1 to 200 seconds delay, meaning there is a ~20% chance they will not detect it in time (any rolls < 38s), and thus the rocket will smash the doors. And I really don't know what to do about that, in fact it seems there is nothing I can do about that.

When there has recently been a meteor shower (that much I can know, with signals), then the quality is "somewhere" between 0 and 100%, because of the regolith tiles still being processed. Meaning not only I do not know what my network quality is (it's not 0%, it's not 100%, it's... anywhere between those 2), but I also do not know what the range of warning delay is. Odd-wise I'm probably fine, but still, there is much unknown here, even more than during a meteor shower.

 

Now yes, I've heard there is one way around it, or almost around it. That would be to power toggle your scanner on and off, because they appear to reset their "event detection" every time they get powered on, basically just forcing the odds in your favor. It's very smart, but I consider it exploity and do not want to do that. Also, even this "trick" will only give you much better odds (than a normally powered scanner would) ; this is still not 100% reliable.

 

-> Is there a way to reliably detect a returning rocket on time (that means a 40 sec warning signal at minimum) during a meteor shower? If not, why? I have all the techs, materials, a lot of power, give me/us a way...

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avc15    416

Each scanner on the network can detect any object, even though each scanner only individually sends a green signal for one object.

That is, if only your 1st scanner is set up to send green for your rocket "Venus Crane III" but your 5th scanner sees it, even if your 5th scanner is outputting for meteor showers, your 1st scanner will output green even though he didn't see it. * A much better way to put this is that if you have 10 scanners, for all intents and purposes each automation signal you hook to checks 10 times. The 10 are in a network.

The answer is to just build more scanners. It doesn't matter which object they're selected to. If you have 10+ scanners the odds are VERY low to not get at least 150s of advance warning for doors to open. You can still every once in a rare while smash some doors but it becomes a rarity.

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Yank31    21

What you're saying makes sense however are you sure it works like that?!

I have 8 scanners. 6 of them for meteor shower (100% network), 2 for rockets. If it works like you describe, this setup should give me 20%^8 = 0,000256% chance of failure (warning < 40s). That's low.

When there is a meteor shower, my rocket door is opened as soon as a rocket is detected (no delay), just green -> open. Not taking any chances. Heh.

My rocket still occasionally smashes the doors. So either I'm the unluckiest dude ever, either... something ain't right.

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avc15    416

whoa hold on. it's not 0.000256%.

You need 150s of warning, that's how long the doors take to open. Call it 160s because there seems to be some variance. So, you're measuring the odds that at least one sensor detects your rocket within the first 40 seconds. It's easier to express the complement of that, what are the odds that every sensor fails to detect my rocket for more than 40 seconds? I.E. failure.

The probability of one scanner failing = 160 / 200, or 80%.

The probability of 8 scanners failing on the same return = 0.8^8 = 17%

The probability of 16 scanners failing on the same return = 0.8 ^ 16 = 3%

(build more scanners)

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nakomaru    1,434

If you refuse to toggle, you still can predict safe periods using automation. You get 10 days of showers and 4 days of peace. Keep track of this, then launch your rockets when they will return during peace.

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Yank31    21

I power my doors so they take 40 seconds to open (I reckon the actual time is 38,2 sec, but I round it up for "safety"...

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avc15    416

Well I seem to have some details wrong on this one  :D

Carry on.

It's worked for me, just spamming scanners. Maybe give it a try.

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Yank31    21
Just now, nakomaru said:

If you refuse to toggle, you still can predict safe periods using automation. You get 10 days of showers and 4 days of peace. Keep track of this, then launch your rockets when they will return during peace.

That is a great idea, maybe a bit inconvenient for short distance spam, but I like the idea :)

However the wiki does not agree with your 10/4 cycle... what gives?

 

Oh boy, space...

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Saturnus    3,401
12 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

If you refuse to toggle, you still can predict safe periods using automation. You get 10 days of showers and 4 days of peace. Keep track of this, then launch your rockets when they will return during peace.

Not quite so anymore. It's much more complex. See https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Meteor_Shower#Season_Parameters

But if you want to make absolutely sure you never have broken doors then you can use my updated water clock I posted a short while ago. It will tell you exactly when it's peace season or meteor season (precision is -0/+2 seconds), and then you can calculate forwards to only launch when you know it will land in a peace season.

Mostly the peace season clock is to power off the meteor scanners while it's peace season as they're not needed.

 

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Yank31    21

Yes I just saw your topic, right on time for this one it seems.

 

Well this looks overly complicated just to avoid smashing my doors with rockets, but... well, that's one other way i guess :):)

Seriously, can it not be done a much straight forward way?

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nakomaru    1,434

Build 100 scanners anywhere for each rocket. They get separate rolls from 1-200. You'll be very likely to detect in time.

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Saturnus    3,401
1 minute ago, Yank31 said:

Yes I just saw your topic, right on time for this one it seems.

 

Well this looks overly complicated just to avoid smashing my doors with rockets, but... well, that's one other way i guess :):)

Seriously, can it not be done a much straight forward way?

You can look at it this way. NASA and every other space agency don't just launch rockets willy-nilly. They calculate a launch window. This contraption allows you to do the same.

And it'll cut your scanner array power cost by about 1/3rd.

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nakomaru    1,434
Just now, Saturnus said:

And it'll cut your scanner array power cost by about 1/3rd.

Don't scanners not consume electricity when sending a red output? So they will use 0 watts during peace anyway? That's what I hear on the forums anyway.

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Saturnus    3,401
5 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Don't scanners not consume electricity when sending a red output? So they will use 0 watts during peace anyway? That's what I hear on the forums anyway.

No.

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Yank31    21
25 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Build 100 scanners anywhere for each rocket. They get separate rolls from 1-200. You'll be very likely to detect in time.

Well I guess that is a second way to do it. You are correct, that should work indeed. 12k W per rocket well spent... (oh lord :D)

 

24 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

You can look at it this way. NASA and every other space agency don't just launch rockets willy-nilly. They calculate a launch window. This contraption allows you to do the same.

And it'll cut your scanner array power cost by about 1/3rd.

Yes, well, ok. I may give it a shot but, for now I see some problems.

It's not NASA, it's ONI and, you know, well, my purpose was to see how much I can automate. Those doors escape my grasp and that's annoying. But on to the contraption <-> situation problems :

1°) How do I know which season is which? I understand your system gives out green or red for peace or meteor war, but how do I, if I am to calculate, can know which green is 10, 7 or 5 cycle long? Basically how do I segregate between the greens, or reds for that matter (as in if it's red, which peace season are we in - I know they're all 4 cycles long, I mean what is the next meteor season).

2°) Using this system, in this case, defeats automation because it requires me to... anticipate, well, manually intervene before every launch. This effectively renders all my rocketry automation moot, or not very purposeful. Not too thrilled by that.

3°) Cutting scanner array cost is amazing and I dig it. I currently turn 5/6 meteor scanners off during meteor showers, and +100s after them, which I like. Turning them off during peace season is great and I was contemplating that, however...

However it **** my rocket detection very hard if I do that. If I turn them off to save power during peace, then... I can never open my doors reliably on time, because I never have the network for it (no network during showers, no network during peace -> might as well just leave a container full of steel near the doors, for the repairs).

 

It really feels like power toggling is the easiest, cheapest & safest way. Extra cheap actually because not only do you need only 1 scanner for each event, you also cuts its power consumption in half (or so). That's a whole lot of pros, for a... well, edgy solution.

I wish we had a "proper" way.

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Saturnus    3,401
11 minutes ago, Yank31 said:

1°) How do I know which season is which? I understand your system gives out green or red for peace or meteor war, but how do I, if I am to calculate, can know which green is 10, 7 or 5 cycle long? Basically how do I segregate between the greens, or reds for that matter (as in if it's red, which peace season are we in).

I'm sure you can figure that out by seeing that it's 10g/s per tile combined flow rate of water. So you can quickly see on the water level how many seconds it's into the the full 34 cycle... uhm... cycle.

Just note that for the calibration to work, it start with the first peace season after a iron meteor season just like it says in the picture.

11 minutes ago, Yank31 said:

However it **** my rocket detection very hard if I do that. If I turn them off to save power during peace, then... I can never open my doors reliably on time, because I never have the network for it (no network during showers, no network during peace -> might as well just leave a container full of steel near the doors, for the repairs).

Why would you need rocket scanners when it's peace season unless you have something else that requires it? You can just have the doors open during peace season.

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Yank31    21
36 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Don't scanners not consume electricity when sending a red output? So they will use 0 watts during peace anyway? That's what I hear on the forums anyway.

Yeah I've read the same, it's not true anymore. They eat 120W no matter the signal. However they DO turn off randomly (for a tick every 3 or 4 seconds, it's very weird).

Maybe that's how they refresh their "event detection", just power off themselves regularly (/facepalm).

 

10 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Why would you need rocket scanners when it's peace season unless you have something else that requires it? You can just have the doors open during peace season.

Jesus... yes.

 

10 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I'm sure you can figure that out by seeing that it's 10g/s per tile combined flow rate of water. So you can quickly see on the water level how many seconds we into the the full 34 cycle... uhm... cycle.

Just note that for the calibration to work, it start with the first peace season after a iron meteor season just like it says in the picture.

Hmm, would there be a way to extract sub green signals from that? Good sir redwire? :)  Could you make the machine send me green signals for every meteor season, then I would know the 1st one is iron, 2nd green is gold (or w/e) and etc.

Or even better (?), have 3 outputs. Output 1 would be iron, 2 copper, 3 gold.

 

That would be useful for commercial journeys (as in cargo bays rockets on small distance) :)

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Saturnus    3,401
14 minutes ago, Yank31 said:

Hmm, would there be a way to extract sub green signals from that?

Yes, but it would take some additional wiring. The information is there already. For example between 24kg and 66kg of water it's copper season. You can figure out the rest from the valve settings.

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Nativel    274

How to make a door in a gun barrel?

-Why?

I don't know, I just have doors every where why not just place them into gun barrel too?

- Cause it's danger!

....

- Why not just place bunker tiles under rocket?

Because I got regolith and it will borrow rocket...

- Are you sure?

No never done this before... Also I need to remuve and place pilot in my rocket every time...

- Why? It's not nessary, just place him once and that's it!

I just like to do that, another problem is uncomfortable to put pants over my head, any solution?

- I see. sorry can't help you.

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biopon    226
4 hours ago, Yank31 said:

Also, even this "trick" will only give you much better odds (than a normally powered scanner would) ; this is still not 100% reliable.

That is technically true. If a pulse cycle takes 3 seconds, you may fail 53 consecutive 80% rolls and get a door smasn. So it's only... wait, calculator tells me that 1 minus 9e-38 is 1? Okay it's 100% accurate, calc.exe knows arithmetic... :) 

I get it, it feels exploity, and it's very hard to argue this is intended behavior. I can rationalize it to myself, mostly because I think that this is an oversight by Klei.

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Yank31    21

:D

I didn't realize the odds of failure were so low, I genuinely thought they were higher.

 

This whole situation bugs me because power toggling is just so strong, in any ways. I could cut my meteor shower expense by 6. I simply wish there was a "good boy" option, like, well, like there is for meteor showers. I placed 6 scanners, 100% network, I'm a good boy.

Now sure I can optimize this, by turning them off with my automation (or probably soon with saturnus automation for even sharper optimization); but this already works, I'm just scrapping watts.

 

Opening doors on time, for returning rockets, during meteor showers, does not work. There is no good boy way, unless... well, see above. But those are crazy compared to what power toggling would require (~50 kg of refined metal, 10 seconds to build, ~60W?). And the less crazy one hardly allows for auto-launches anyway.

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biopon    226

I know what you mean, and trust me you're not alone. People are doing pretty desperate things, like putting out naked scanners to be hit by meteors and then have it be repaired by dupes. (That's still only 13% network, so a 91% chance to detect in time when it's not broken, but that's beside the point.) Klei will probably get to it in time. Unless it's an intended mechanic, which would suck.

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OxCD    467

I do appreciate this topic as this question also popped-up to me.

As an alternate way, you can completely avoid scanner and build water clock system that allow you to time exactly when the rocket will return. Could be a manual system, where you choose when your rocket is taking off, so you set the timer manually every time, or could be a cyclic system, when the rocket is set for "auto-launch", and then you use the output automation port of the rocket to start the clock, which have always the same length.

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