Pop Guy

As Klei could very easily implement a difficult mode (without distorting the gaming experience through intensive modification of the world generation)

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hamstar    18

This makes only combat more difficult. Some combat instances are already about not taking hits as is, so they're even less relevant.

Edited by hamstar

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FreyaMaluk    5,002
21 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

How can I repay an invitation from the mafia godfather in person? :'D

Refuse at your own peril. 

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Rosten    909
7 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

<snip>

I am desperately trying to separate this into the point you're making and it is legitimately impossible. I would like to congratulate you on writing the most incomprehensible thing that probably still makes some object-level linguistic sense I have ever read.

Edited by Rosten
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Mike23Ua    792
33 minutes ago, Rosten said:

I am desperately trying to separate this into the point you're making and it is legitimately impossible. I would like to congratulate you on writing the most incomprehensible thing that probably still makes some object-level linguistic sense I have ever read.

Hopefully your not offended by this but I am a HUGE Batman fan.. and imagined the Riddler saying this. 

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Pop Guy    3,513

@x0VERSUS1y

I am amused by the inability of the average user of this forum to understand the meaning of the posts. A riot of confused faces and people asking for greater synthesis and clarity. I laugh every time I see an idiotic face as a reaction, ahahah :'D

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Crimson Chin    471
12 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

The funny thing, dear forumites, vast majority of players out there in Constant's deep dark forests of doom, the player-base bulk, struggle. They are the ones being munched by cats and spiders on first autumn, the ones going yellow-green with fear when that "very easy, most baby facile" hostile you guys laugh at already-tenderly-stroking the 6 incoming-on-a-silver-plate Living Logs rises in all its walking Ent glory, they are the ones when by Moon's hazy miracles survive Winter's come, are being totally obliterated by Clops with "baisu" and surroundings. They go on pubs, public server, the essence of fun madness and creative griefing, screaming in chat where's base day 2, what @Bleksmits actually underlines for those maddening adventures - it's casuals, not his friends. Trust me, the fun you'll have, dear forumites that play mostly alone, will be tenfold. Want PvP without actuall PvP? Go the pub way! Feel the slimy pleasure of tentacles spawned on gate courtesy of a kind granny, see the joyful Winona feeding their pet a Mandrake standing on fire and then pooping some Gunpowder beside your sleeping self for a BOOM melodic outro. See your base going in flames knowing you have a foxy wolf in your noobish flock and can do nothing about it, see that Wolf eating all fridge and more just to run around base Mighty while meme-ing in chat about Rick and Morty or SCPs, oh that Roboto gulping the gears chest and now smashing le flingos... you haven't seen scarcity and madness if you haven't bathed in public servers, the more the better for unmoderated, unadulterated sweet insanity! :roll:

 

Time and again I also pointed this: imo what DST needs to be more interesting.. at least for a time, is a 2-steps difficulty incrementation: have a significant event that, after occurring, it changes the world - it makes it more dynamic, more alive, amps up difficulty, making it seem like world evolves with player's advancement. Have then that diseases-spreading toad proposal rotting all your world, structures included, feel the pleasure of Bee Queen and her majesty's nasty hordes of Grumbles stinging all-that's-alive in base to glorious thorny death, feel tornadoes, chills, blizzards, death and destruction, get sick yourself, bleed, crumble into dust and wither, all the calamity Klei could imagine and introduce us to its marvelous disaster.

I definitely do understand a good chunk of the playerbase are new players that struggle. Which its confusing to me that Klei wanted to move away from that "uncompromising" label, yet the game is currently still extremely unforgiving to new players. I don't get that, why would they want that label not associated with DST, when THAT part of the game hasn't changed at all. Is the reason behind making unengaging content REALLY just the new players? Either way.. catering to just one chunk of your audience is never a good idea when its definitely possible to strike a nice balance and keep everyone happy. Not to say the new players will ever see this content, so seemingly they are missing both targets!!!

And I definitely am all for your world changing event suggestion, an easy way to add significant content without affecting new players at all really. Like many have said in this thread, the content currently getting added seems to pointless. Its more of the same, and it suffers the same flaws as... the same.

12 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

  For a time, dear forumites, you'll be entertained.. in your solo world. Then you'll master this too. But pls, for the sake of rest of us loving the sandbox aspect, don't advocate for the DST becoming a giant wave-based mobs/bosses-rush Arena you gleefully seem to desire. Ty!

I think the idea here is to make content that can't just be memorized. Its been pointed out many times now, but making difficulty or any kind of content only work if you don't know about something is silly in a game meant to be replayed constantly. And I also don't think anyone here is really advocating for DST to become a battle arena , but rather get some kind of new combat system that takes skill.... and not memory. I know its probably tiresome at this point to compare DST to terraria or minecraft, but there is a reason those games are so much more successfull. Its not impossible to make difficulty that lasts even after experiencing it multiple times. Its also definitely not impossible to keep old players and new players playing. These games aren't meant to be "uncompromising" by any means, yet both of them still take a lot more skill and are far more challenging that DST ever will be.

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Frashaw27    363
2 hours ago, Crimson Chin said:

I think the idea here is to make content that can't just be memorized

So you have way to high expectations for the game. You see memory is funny on the fact that you really try to make something outside of the box, you will rember it. The problem that lies is that ypu can't stop rembering something when you are actively doing the related action as the brain considers it relavwnt information and will put back into your active memory. The point I trying to say is that you can't just say that memorization is the problem as ypu will just do the same thing when anything new comes out. You experince it the first time, learn, and then adept to the point where you can do it and then build a stratgey for it and eventually perfect it. That is essentially what kiting is, a stratgey that has been perfected. Sure you can change some things about the enemy but then it would just have to change the stratgey and then perfect that. If you added something like randomized attack periods, then it would get even more boring because tanking causes even less engagment then kiting to you. There is much less you have to do when you are just standing there hitting and getting hit, eating a pierogi every once in a while, that is so much more boring then kiting. Tanking would regin supreme because the RNG would make it so much less efficent to actually complete a task that just taking it would be more efficent in resources and time as it removes the guess work from it. Kiting something also makes you engaged because you have to keep active attention on the moves you make, your opponet makes, and the area around you when compared to tanking,which has you focus on amount of armor and health. It also helps show growth because your first time fighting something, you will die or get somewhat close to it because of inexperince, but them you slowly learm the attack patterns and ypu eventually beat the boss woth taking little to no damage. This feels really good and actively shows growth on your part. I dp think the combat system should have some numbers tweaked and add more attack verity, but it should still have the ability to kite because it shows mental growth, skill growth, and it just feels good to do something better and more efficently.

2 hours ago, Crimson Chin said:

I know its probably tiresome at this point to compare DST to terraria or minecraft, but there is a reason those games are so much more successfull. Its not impossible to make difficulty that lasts even after experiencing it multiple times. Its also definitely not impossible to keep old players and new players playing. These games aren't meant to be "uncompromising" by any means, yet both of them still take a lot more skill and are far more challenging that DST ever will be

The problem is that these 2 games are fundementally different games. Terraria has a massive focus on bosses and has a lot more RPG mechanics them the other 2 combined. Its not a survival game, its a rpg that has really good build elements. Sure your first few nights might be spent in a hut scared of the undead hoard, but once you get decent armor and a upgraded armor, its focus on survival fizzles out as you just keep on getting stronger and stronger. Even when hardmode hits, you already have some sort of home or base to go to so the new mobs can be avoided or hid from and will allow you to slowly ease you into the new difficulty. Minecraft is a more compariable thing but it is also flawed. The survival elments do relate it more to DST but its never the main focus. There isn't anything you to really do to survival day to day once you get a renewable food source, which is easier done then said. A simple comple of seeds can perpetually feed you for a few days after they have grown and will give you more seeds to plant. This is really the only element that really forces survival upon you as you can easily just wait out any other challenges until you are armed to the teeth as there isn't any motivator besides new stuff to use that forces you to go for it. This is also a problem im DST, but the difference is that the items gotten can all feed into your survabilty increasing as most boss items (or to be more specific craftables) all help you accomplish over a area of the game. The scorched furnace helps you counter the cold of winter, bee queen crown helps you fight bosses as to not go insane while fighting them, and even the funcap can help you as a generally hat. Compared to minecraft, there are far more reasons to do the optional content as you will gaon some reward to help you. As it's core, Minecraft is a building game, a damn good one at that, but the problem in comparing to DST or DS is that they are 2 seperate things take have a few simular ideas. Minecraft focuses more on the ability to do what ever you want with you near infinate world, while DST focuses more on you conquering the world and bending it to your will. This uniqueness is what seperates DST to other survival games as it has its roots in survival. There might be other ones like it, but DST is this truly unique game and doesn't really have a one to one comparison like other types of games.

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x0VERSUS1y    3,548

@Pop Guy Oh well, what can I say more than what I've already pointed: no matter their personal circumstances, if someone finds a post not to their liking (too long, too divergent, too complicated, too etc), just gloss over, is that simple. As for the people themselves, who knows. Am sure my punctuation plays a prominent role, being faulty - after all English isn't even my second language - but hey, in the end they don't say "average" for nothing I suppose. The bigger problem though is their potentially low-end Dunning-Kruger effect and most worrisome the suggestions they might propose based on that fallacy.

 

@Crimson Chin The "uncompromising survival wilderness" part recurrently pointed is rather subjective; some linked it with DS style-usage of Life Giving Amulets and Touchstones - aka actual wearing of said amulets and activation via touching of mentioned magical paraphernalia - coupled with total lack of Telltale reviving option, also the elimination of Ghost mechanic. For me, related to said survivability mechanic, "uncompromising" would mean no reviving whatsoever. No amulets, no touchstones, no nothing. You died, that's it, caput, you kicked the bucket and your world progress. Then there's the "wilderness" aspect: for me that implies no bases, no decoration no nothing yet again. You have your backpack, your torch and your guts. You live off the land, picking fruits, vegetables, hunting wildlife.. and in turn be hunted yourself, as part of the food chain. Would all above be fun? For me they wouldn't, as it only means struggle, and - most importantly - without consistent rewards is pretty much meaningless. This is not a tier-based games with ratings of players to be motivated via such method and should remain tier-less, as it invites the toxicity one can find in competitive gaming well too much. I get what "uncompromising survival wilderness" is accepted as in general by community - yet, as JoeW stated, and was a pretty heated argument in past regarding a theoretical multiplayer component for DS when it was first brought up, that "uncompromising survival" aspect cannot be maintained in a multiplayer context if you also want to promote co-op; co-op implies you helping your friends and vice-versa, including in life-death situations. You want to have fun with your friends, and if you and/or your friends aren't adept at the game, is a bummer to restart maps all over again under 10 days, basically doing same stuff on and on just to kick again the bucket in a silly way, without any possibility to redeem oneself. Don't forget: bulk of player base plays the game casually. If they die too often, have world reset and are stuck in same first 5 days... will quit, in quite large amounts, even more so than presently (and I have friends that did so even in current state of game, precisely because dying too often).

We all have complains, but then there's the proposals part too. I read some people wanting "harsher" conditions. One aspect is the food, other - the enemies. What can be done?! I for one brought in the 2-steps difficulty event to not have newbies destroyed day 1 by an Ent with 2,3,4-margins of attack randomization I presume some people would want for enemies amp-up. Because I for one see only this type of enemy leveling up: either have 2-3-4 types of attacks in a set pattern, or have 2-3-4 margins of RNG for one type of attack's recurrence. Let's take the punctual case of Treeguards: you have it alternate between 2-3-4 types of strikes or have one type of strike repeat in 2-3-4 RNG patterns - now it hits after 2-kites-window, then it hits after only 1-kite window, next window it doesn't let you kite at all and just strikes you etc. In this case your best bet is to tank about 50% of hits, and you'll need even more armor. You can imagine what such scenario would do to casuals if implemented from day 1.

You can also point to Forge for a combat revamp. But that was an arena, where only fighting was done, matches had the span of around 7 minutes and the strategies were so-and-so, theoretically, easy to learn. But when you opted for random matches with .. casuals... Moon help the wicked, heh. Most such matches ended in total failure even late in the event. And, again, Forge proposed clear roles, had smoother learning curve and so on. Imagine now how such tight/heavily team-dependent combat system would fair in regular DST pubs, where pretty much anyone does their mojo and most of times they have no clue about that mojo.

 

What I stress in the end is: it's hard to re-balance the game, redo the core mechanics and whatnot without either alienate the hard survival enthusiasts and combat-oriented competitive players or ditch the bulk casuals that cannot invest time, effort and the like in the game. But not impossible. Time will tell how Klei handles this challenge.

 

For now I myself would be happy to only have 2-3 more challenging bosses come for you RoG style, have some more weather mechanics (winds, chills, haze etc), 1 more MacT mob for ocean, good loot table that actually helps you survive and is well balance... oh well, list keeps growing doesn't it?! But I surely know what I don't want, and that is a giant wave-based mobs/bosses Arena.

 

PS: there isn't just an issue of memorization with kiting and other stuff, but of dexterity from practice as well.

Edited by x0VERSUS1y
*some corrections*
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Rosten    909
43 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I'd say they're doing a bad job if the dissonance between reading the wiki and playing the game right after is so massive. The average new player in DST dies because they don't know or understand half of the mechanics, which the game doesn't bother to explain(especially the part where you should turn lag compensation off...is that listed anywhere....by the tutorial...oh wait, the game doesn't have a tutorial).

Most players find the game hard because nothing is explained to them, and they can wander about for a while without the game explaining some mechanics, some of which are nearly impossible to figure out via trial and error.y

That's... The point. The point of Don't Starve was always exploring the world and learning how to survive from scratch. There's a reason the game becomes a lot more boring when you understand it inside out. *Experimentation is the point*

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Sketched_Philo    1,073
43 minutes ago, Rosten said:

That's... The point. The point of Don't Starve was always exploring the world and learning how to survive from scratch. There's a reason the game becomes a lot more boring when you understand it inside out. *Experimentation is the point*

if a game is based on learning the right answers and how to play then the fun ends once you do that. read the wiki. fun's over for dst.

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Crimson Chin    471
6 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

So you have way to high expectations for the game. 

This is already incredibly disappointing. Do you not have high expectations for the game? Why shouldn't I have high expectations for DST? Is this to say Klei incapable of significant change? I know I'm asking for a lot, but why not dream?

6 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

You see memory is funny on the fact that you really try to make something outside of the box, you will rember it. The problem that lies is that ypu can't stop rembering something when you are actively doing the related action as the brain considers it relavwnt information and will put back into your active memory. The point I trying to say is that you can't just say that memorization is the problem as ypu will just do the same thing when anything new comes out. You experince it the first time, learn, and then adept to the point where you can do it and then build a stratgey for it and eventually perfect it. That is essentially what kiting is, a stratgey that has been perfected. Sure you can change some things about the enemy but then it would just have to change the stratgey and then perfect that. If you added something like randomized attack periods, then it would get even more boring because tanking causes even less engagment then kiting to you. There is much less you have to do when you are just standing there hitting and getting hit, eating a pierogi every once in a while, that is so much more boring then kiting. Tanking would regin supreme because the RNG would make it so much less efficent to actually complete a task that just taking it would be more efficent in resources and time as it removes the guess work from it. Kiting something also makes you engaged because you have to keep active attention on the moves you make, your opponet makes, and the area around you when compared to tanking,which has you focus on amount of armor and health. It also helps show growth because your first time fighting something, you will die or get somewhat close to it because of inexperince, but them you slowly learm the attack patterns and ypu eventually beat the boss woth taking little to no damage. This feels really good and actively shows growth on your part. I dp think the combat system should have some numbers tweaked and add more attack verity, but it should still have the ability to kite because it shows mental growth, skill growth, and it just feels good to do something better and more efficently.

I get what you are saying and I agree that memory DOES help. In other games..... like Terraria or Minecraft..... enemies do definitely have patterns, and like you said you develop strategies around these patterns once you memorize them and get them down. However, you still have to time it right and react accordingly, to pull the "strategy" off. The difference between that and DST's combat system is that memory is all that it takes. The strategy is literally just counting in your head and walking backwards a bit. I suppose the little movement you have to make once you know the enemy is going to attack is.... something, but barely anything. Again DST's combat system isn't engaging at all. There is no risk to it if you know what amount of hits you can get in. I'm also definitely not asking for unavoidable/random attacks, like you said that's even less engaging as tanking takes quite literally 0 skill for the most part. I'm just afraid that Klei is going to see these complaints and add something LIKE that, to try and make some kind of artificial difficulty. 

6 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

The problem is that these 2 games are fundementally different games. Terraria has a massive focus on bosses and has a lot more RPG mechanics them the other 2 combined. Its not a survival game, its a rpg that has really good build elements. Sure your first few nights might be spent in a hut scared of the undead hoard, but once you get decent armor and a upgraded armor, its focus on survival fizzles out as you just keep on getting stronger and stronger. Even when hardmode hits, you already have some sort of home or base to go to so the new mobs can be avoided or hid from and will allow you to slowly ease you into the new difficulty. Minecraft is a more compariable thing but it is also flawed. The survival elments do relate it more to DST but its never the main focus. There isn't anything you to really do to survival day to day once you get a renewable food source, which is easier done then said. A simple comple of seeds can perpetually feed you for a few days after they have grown and will give you more seeds to plant. This is really the only element that really forces survival upon you as you can easily just wait out any other challenges until you are armed to the teeth as there isn't any motivator besides new stuff to use that forces you to go for it. This is also a problem im DST, but the difference is that the items gotten can all feed into your survabilty increasing as most boss items (or to be more specific craftables) all help you accomplish over a area of the game. The scorched furnace helps you counter the cold of winter, bee queen crown helps you fight bosses as to not go insane while fighting them, and even the funcap can help you as a generally hat. Compared to minecraft, there are far more reasons to do the optional content as you will gaon some reward to help you. As it's core, Minecraft is a building game, a damn good one at that, but the problem in comparing to DST or DS is that they are 2 seperate things take have a few simular ideas. Minecraft focuses more on the ability to do what ever you want with you near infinate world, while DST focuses more on you conquering the world and bending it to your will. This uniqueness is what seperates DST to other survival games as it has its roots in survival. There might be other ones like it, but DST is this truly unique game and doesn't really have a one to one comparison like other types of games.

I definitely understand they are completely different games, that's no question. However, they are all survival games mixed with sandboxes. Its just that DST doesn't seem to completely fill the survival aspect OR the sandbox aspect. I definitely agree Minecraft is more sandbox than it is survival, but I'd argue the "challenge" Minecraft offers, that being enemies, aiming, blocking, building something to help you survive an enemy, etc... are all better than what DST offers there. In Minecraft there is truly a thousand ways to do something, when in DST there may be another way to do something, but it just ends up being unfun or tedious. Exploits are also another issue, while I'm not going to say Terraria and Minecraft are completely clean, DST suffers the most from them. DST's already unengaging combat system quite literally gives you no reason to actually want to fight a boss or enemy if an exploit is available, because COMBAT ISN'T FUN. 

And terraria is definitely the more combat oriented one out of all these games, and it does that very well. Like I have been saying, does difficulty in terraria just disappear once you know an enemy? No, it definitely might go smoother, but something will never just stop being a threat because you know about it. Again, I completely understand these are different games, but I think these comparisons are fair since they share quite a few elements.  I know DST could have been something big, it still can be. These major flaws are keeping it from even having a chance because the game.... feels like it breathes no life. Its unforgiving and cruel to new players, but becomes stale so quickly for old players when the game is entirely based around memory.

6 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

 

 

@Crimson Chin The "uncompromising survival wilderness" part recurrently pointed is rather subjective; some linked it with DS style-usage of Life Giving Amulets and Touchstones - aka actual wearing of said amulets and activation via touching of mentioned magical paraphernalia - coupled with total lack of Telltale reviving option, also the elimination of Ghost mechanic. For me, related to said survivability mechanic, "uncompromising" would mean no reviving whatsoever. No amulets, no touchstones, no nothing. You died, that's it, caput, you kicked the bucket and your world progress. Then there's the "wilderness" aspect: for me that implies no bases, no decoration no nothing yet again. You have your backpack, your torch and your guts. You live off the land, picking fruits, vegetables, hunting wildlife.. and in turn be hunted yourself, as part of the food chain. Would all above be fun? For me they wouldn't, as it only means struggle, and - most importantly - without consistent rewards is pretty much meaningless. This is not a tier-based games with ratings of players to be motivated via such method and should remain tier-less, as it invites the toxicity one can find in competitive gaming well too much. I get what "uncompromising survival wilderness" is accepted as in general by community - yet, as JoeW stated, and was a pretty heated argument in past regarding a theoretical multiplayer component for DS when it was first brought up, that "uncompromising survival" aspect cannot be maintained in a multiplayer context if you also want to promote co-op; co-op implies you helping your friends and vice-versa, including in life-death situations. You want to have fun with your friends, and if you and/or your friends aren't adept at the game, is a bummer to restart maps all over again under 10 days, basically doing same stuff on and on just to kick again the bucket in a silly way, without any possibility to redeem oneself. Don't forget: bulk of player base plays the game casually. If they die too often, have world reset and are stuck in same first 5 days... will quit, in quite large amounts, even more so than presently (and I have friends that did so even in current state of game, precisely because dying too often).

Its definitely true that this can be subjective. To me uncompromising means... well... unforgiving, I wouldn't expect an uncompromising game to feel bad for me or give me any pity points. It really is weird being on this side of the coin for once, since usually I am the one advocating for accessibility, I'm pretty terrible at games! While I wouldn't mind a struggle, I will say again that I am not JUST crying for some form of difficulty, but also something that will keep players engaged. This is why I'm all for a terraria like hardmode/world changing event that would increase difficulty, but also rewards.  I think it would be awesome for something like the RoT waters to appear once a "world changing" event occurred, something would cause the chunk of the moon to fall and turn the normal cardboard water into traversable RoT waters. Of course in this hypothetical world changing event the moon island would have to be something entirely different... and the waters would have to offer more than just...... salt and another health sponge boss.... ANYWAYS, the combat system, exploits, and the overall reliance on memory is what makes it extremely unengaging for me. Like I said, the most fun I get out of the game anymore is with friends, clowning around with other randoms on public servers, or PVP, never actually playing the game the intended way.

I suppose I have different tastes as I love challenging multiplayer games, which is fine! I think going down together is all part of the fun, but I understand how with DST's current systems that can be frustrating to some. However, with how reviving works currently and how easy it is to just have a million back up lives, I don't think it would hurt to actually have a chance of dying. I again will say I'm not trying to scare new players off, like we have established there are ways to satisfy older players while not even affecting newer ones, an example being this world changing event idea. While this would increase difficulty, it would also increase reward. Anyways, I am of the opinion that new players aren't going to stick around either way if they don't like getting their teeth kicked in a few times. Like we said, the "difficulty" in DST is cruel when you have no idea what you are doing, but that starts to wear off after only a few play throughs. Which its normal for a game to get easier for you as you play, but nowhere near the levels of DST, because like I said, there is still some skill involved in EXECUTING a strategy, where as in DST all you have to do is count to 6 in your head. My friends that don't stick around dst would give it a try, they don't mind dying, but its hard to stay engaged when you have experienced everything the game can possibly throw at you in a few playthroughs.

6 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

You can also point to Forge for a combat revamp. But that was an arena, where only fighting was done, matches had the span of around 7 minutes and the strategies were so-and-so, theoretically, easy to learn. But when you opted for random matches with .. casuals... Moon help the wicked, heh. Most such matches ended in total failure even late in the event. And, again, Forge proposed clear roles, had smoother learning curve and so on. Imagine now how such tight/heavily team-dependent combat system would fair in regular DST pubs, where pretty much anyone does their mojo and most of times they have no clue about that mojo.

Again, we can go with that world changing event to have the forge mechanics unlocked, and the new enemy patterns/ai like you were talking about, so new players don't really get affected. Again its strange to me that Klei wants to dissociate themselves from the "Uncompromising Survival Game" tag, when DST is extremely unforgiving for new players. It makes it feel like more of an excuse rather than an actual philosophy change since they have done next to nothing to throw a bone to anyone learning... or in this case memorizing..... the game.

6 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

What I stress in the end is: it's hard to re-balance the game, redo the core mechanics and whatnot without either alienate the hard survival enthusiasts and combat-oriented competitive players or ditch the bulk casuals that cannot invest time, effort and the like in the game. But not impossible. Time will tell how Klei handles this challenge.

I absolutely understand this, especially this late in a game's life. It just seems like a crime though to let DST go out without even trying anything new. I just wish..... they would make an attempt... anything.... I know DST could have ... and still can go way farther than it has... Klei just has to be willing to try something new. These fluff content updates... don't fix anything or really even add anything for anyone.

 

Edited by Crimson Chin
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Rosten    909
14 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

if a game is based on learning the right answers and how to play then the fun ends once you do that. read the wiki. fun's over for dst.

That's like saying "if a story is based on learning what happens then the fun ends once you know what happens. If you spoil the story, then the fun's over."

Like, duh. Yeah?

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Rosten    909
22 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Okay I might not have explained myself that well. Here's what I meant.

-In Don't Starve Together, the fun comes from the "ah yes I figured out how to play I'm 1 step closer to surviving" moments that the game has some of...you can skip all this if you read the wiki. The game relies on you not knowing how to play for it to be fun. That's kind of bizarre isn't it? isn't chess more fun when you know how to actually play? Often a game is more engaging when the participants understand what they even have to do.

That's the issue with DST. Once you learn how to play it's often not challenging nor engaging anymore. The game lacking a tutorial is, ironically, the only reason this is possible.

That's how the game is meant to function. I know what you're saying, I'm telling you that's the point and always has been the point. 

If you go on the wiki and spoil yourself on how all of the mechanics work, the only thing you can blame for your lack of enjoyment is you for purposefully ruining it for yourself. New players are supposed to struggle. The game is about learning how to survive in an uncompromising wilderness through trial and error. 

Edited by Rosten
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Lammarr    1,025
1 minute ago, maradyne said:

I remember thinking years ago (before DST) that Minecraft would benefit from ripping off of Don't Starve and putting a recipe guide of some sort in-game, because it would ease the somewhat ridiculously steep learning curve of a new player who hasn't spent hours memorizing the wiki/keeping up with patch notes.
...then they did, and it turned out to be a great benefit to the game; the ratio of people that seem to know what they're doing in multiplayer went up drastically.

Here we are years later, and I'm wishing that DST would rip off of Minecraft and add achievements that guide the player through the basics of the game, so content wouldn't have to cater so much to the assumption that the main playerbase is incapable of using a fork without offing themselves.

God this is weird.

I say yes to this mainly for the puns and references that it would have.

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Sketched_Philo    1,073
3 minutes ago, Rosten said:

That's how the game is meant to function. I know what you're saying, I'm telling you that's the point and always has been the point. 

If you go on the wiki and spoil yourself on how all of the mechanics work, the only thing you can blame for your lack of enjoyment is you for purposefully ruining it for yourself. New players are supposed to struggle. The game is about learning how to survive in an uncompromising wilderness through trial and error. 

I'm sorry, it must have been so self-evident to me how bad of an idea that was that I never framed it as anything else but you not understanding what I was saying. I suppose I can't agree with you on this at all.

Edited by Sketched_Philo
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Rosten    909
2 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I'm sorry, it must have been so self-evident to me how bad of an idea that was that I never framed it as anything else but you not understanding what I was saying. I suppose I can't agree with you on this at all.

If you don't like it, play a different game? I'm not sure what to tell you, it's pretty entitled to expect the developers to upend the entire basic philosophy under which the game was designed to cater to your taste.

I'd say Don't Starve's 50k positive reviews on Steam speak for themselves in terms of whether or not it's a good idea.

Edited by Rosten
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Sketched_Philo    1,073
13 minutes ago, Rosten said:

If you don't like it, play a different game? I'm not sure what to tell you, it's pretty entitled to expect the developers to upend the entire basic philosophy under which the game was designed to cater to your taste.

I'd say Don't Starve's 50k positive reviews on Steam speak for themselves in terms of whether or not it's a good idea.

Imagine how many more it'd have with a different philosophy...

 

Edited by Sketched_Philo
field seems prepared to defend the status quo with confused emotes
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fimmatek    3,372

Sometimes I feel as if I were the only one who actually learnt the game by trial and error, dying a ton of times by making horrible mistakes but having so much fun at the same time. And I still enjoy it a lot, even after more than a thousand hours. Undeniably, the era of exploring the game has ended for me and that type of fun will never come back - but I found many other ways that make DST still enjoyable. Now I'm not surviving, but thriving or chilling, whatever I want.

16 minutes ago, maradyne said:

Here we are years later, and I'm wishing that DST would rip off of Minecraft and add achievements that guide the player through the basics of the game, so content wouldn't have to cater so much to the assumption that the main playerbase is incapable of using a fork without offing themselves.

But that would be quite the opposite of what Klei wanted to do since the early access of DS, since when they wrote that article about extrinsic vs intrinsic rewards. Their tests showed that when players got achievements, at the end they found the game boring and stopped playing. That's why the devs never added any achievements to DS/T (on steam at least).

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Sketched_Philo    1,073
12 minutes ago, fimmatek said:

Sometimes I feel as if I were the only one who actually learnt the game by trial and error, dying a ton of times by making horrible mistakes but having so much fun at the same time. And I still enjoy it a lot, even after more than a thousand hours. Undeniably, the era of exploring the game has ended for me and that type of fun will never come back - but I found many other ways that make DST still enjoyable. Now I'm not surviving, but thriving or chilling, whatever I want.

But that would be quite the opposite of what Klei wanted to do since the early access of DS, since when they wrote that article about extrinsic vs intrinsic rewards. Their tests showed that when players got achievements, at the end they found the game boring and stopped playing. That's why the devs never added any achievements to DS/T (on steam at least).

In my experience , the game was quite difficult for me playing this way. I didn't check the wiki, consciously, for...I'd say about 20-30 hours of play, and I improved at an agoniously slow pace, primarily since I played alone and without anyone but my brother, someone who was also new to the game(he got me the game so we could play together). The game felt very very very difficult.

At some point I decided to play on my own without him and join public servers. And that's when I started picking up on stuff that made the game seem a lot less...daunting that it seemed when I was absolutely clueless. And suddenly things that were a struggle, like being ready for winter, suddenly were...just nothing. Just do the thing. It was just a checklist.  The challenge was gone. Now, some things like boss battles and the ruins still held some challenge(don't get me wrong, there are a few things in dst that are genuinely challenging and not that vulnerable to exploits...the klaus fight stands out).

Now, this by itself wouldn't be a problem, that the difficulty relies on playing the game blind, if there was more to the engagement and challenge of the game than just that. It lacks replayability as a result of difficulty relying ENTIRELY on just this. I enjoyed games like Slay the Spire and FTL:Faster the Light during my new days and during my days as a player who understood the mechanics(I have 300+ hours on both of those, not sure if that's meaningful to the discussion but just to be clear). In fact, Slay the Spire withholds practically NO information from the player from the get-go: it explains how cards work and has descriptions that can be seen at any time, which is likely easier due to the game being turn-based, but still. It also has a tutorial when you play it for the first time. Point being: the developers made a game challenging with most information being available to the player about the combats. That's a true accomplishment. I just wish DST could be as good as Slay the Spire. That game doesn't have the most impressive aesthetic and DST easily surpasses it in that way.

A game with Slay the Spire's design quality and replayability and DST's aesthetic would absolutely slap.

Edited by Sketched_Philo
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