Saturnus

Introducing the split steam turbine and it's uses

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Saturnus    3536
7 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

I take it you must vacuum out the steam chambers so that lighter-than-steam gases don't block turbine ports?

No. You don't need to do that apart from the steam vent tamer.

(It's automatically a vacuum since the steam chambers are completely filled with water from the start on all the other builds)

Edited by Saturnus

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Craigjw    405

You could perhaps place a pressure valve in the steam vent, only allowing the AQ to run when it has pressure and the liquid is above 20c.  This is what I do.

You can also place an empty tile, like where the top of the loader is in the metal volcano, when there's steam, the hydrogen will naturally disperse into this higher tile, freeing the ports.

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OxCD    488
On 13/10/2019 at 7:48 PM, Saturnus said:

you cannot trust valves to split an intermittent stream correctly. The variance is up to +-8%

Can we conclude from this that water clocks are not as reliable as we thought ? 8% could lead in something very imprecise over time.

Nice post by the way, as always !

Edited by OxCD

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Craigjw    405
1 hour ago, OxCD said:

Can we conclude from this that water clocks are not as reliable as we thought ? 8% could lead in something very imprecise over time.

Nice post by the way, as always !

The key is in the wording; intermittent. A water supply to a water clock is constant and not intermittent.  Therefore, I don't think that this applies.

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OxCD    488
1 hour ago, Craigjw said:

The key is in the wording; intermittent. A water supply to a water clock is constant and not intermittent.  Therefore, I don't think that this applies.

Not sure about this. I guess the test that has been made by saturnus showing the two pool with different load of water, has been done with constant flow. Otherwise he would have replicate the same intermittent flow than one you could get from following setup. Knowing the fact that the efficiency of each steam turbine into each setup is a bit different, flow is, number of successive water output packet is, so result could be.

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Craigjw    405

I know that pumps don't output full packets in the final tick when being disabled, could something like this be happening with the flow valve perhaps.

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OxCD    488
14 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

I know that pumps don't output full packets in the final tick when being disabled, could something like this be happening with the flow valve perhaps.

And that would spoil his discovery, because of course if packets are not always the same size, then the valve cannot always split in fixed packet size ! That's why it leads me to think that he used constant flow for test, or at least fixed packet size. And you cannot guarantee any of those two with turbine output...

Edited by OxCD

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Yunru    1140
2 minutes ago, OxCD said:

or at least fixed packet size. And you cannot guarantee any of those two with turbine output...

 

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Craigjw    405

I don't think having a million buffer or filter gates in serial is going to be any more accurate than a water clock to be fair.  In conclusion, all our dupes are doomed to failure because we only have 3 significant figures of rounding error.

Edited by Craigjw

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OxCD    488
7 minutes ago, Yunru said:

 

So constant size, but not constant flow.

That doesn't contradict my main worry. Cans this discovery reveal a water clock weakness ?

 

7 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

I don't think having a million buffer or filter gates in serial is going to be any more accurate than a water clock to be fair.

Completely agree, by the way.

Edited by OxCD

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Yunru    1140
3 minutes ago, OxCD said:

That doesn't contradict my main worry. Cans this discovery affect the reliability of water clock ?

It depends on the build I guess. With a constant flow, sticking the above in would truncate the end and delay the start, but nothing else.

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OxCD    488
20 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

Using 10kg packets for a water clock might work, although, it'd be excessively large...

lol. 170 000km rocket. 45,9 cycles. 27 540 sec. 10kg packet / second. Water clock using a 275 400kg liquid pool. Please stop thinking about that ^^

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Yunru    1140
1 hour ago, Craigjw said:

Using 10kg packets for a water clock might work, although, it'd be excessively large...

You can throttle flow with a valve (with excess feeding back in before the stacker). 

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Saturnus    3536
3 hours ago, OxCD said:

Not sure about this. I guess the test that has been made by saturnus showing the two pool with different load of water, has been done with constant flow. Otherwise he would have replicate the same intermittent flow than one you could get from following setup. Knowing the fact that the efficiency of each steam turbine into each setup is a bit different, flow is, number of successive water output packet is, so result could be.

I did indeed imitate the intermittent flow you'd see from a steam turbine in these set ups including a random number generator to vary flow time.

Valves are perfectly accurate with constant flow.

Edited by Saturnus
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Craigjw    405

There you go, just set a flow valve to 10kg/s to be doubly sure it's accurate and you have yourself a water clock that needs at 600 tiles of space, nice!

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psusi    189

Say what now?  The steam from the vent is both less than the minimum temperature and insufficient volume to drive even 1 port of the turbine.  It doesn't look like you are using the port blocking trick to get hot steam to one port either, and if you did, the power output would be very low, but you show full power.  The hydrogen vent temperature is plenty hot, but the mass is so minuscule, it isn't going to provide enough heat to run the turbine.

 

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Saturnus    3536
5 hours ago, psusi said:

Say what now?  The steam from the vent is both less than the minimum temperature and insufficient volume to drive even 1 port of the turbine.  It doesn't look like you are using the port blocking trick to get hot steam to one port either, and if you did, the power output would be very low, but you show full power.  The hydrogen vent temperature is plenty hot, but the mass is so minuscule, it isn't going to provide enough heat to run the turbine.

I have no idea what this post is supposed to mean. Care to elaborate?

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psusi    189
6 hours ago, Saturnus said:

I have no idea what this post is supposed to mean. Care to elaborate?

What part didn't you get?  I'm questioning how your steam turbine can possibly work.

 

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beowulf2010    574
3 hours ago, psusi said:

What part didn't you get?  I'm questioning how your steam turbine can possibly work.

 

Quite well actually, considering that it is there purely for cooling the hydrogen and self powering the pumps. I built the hydrogen one last base and was impressed with just how efficient it was. (I knew it was good as Saturnus doesn't make posts like this until he's tested things thoroughly, but wow is it awesome.) 

Build it, watch it, realize it works, and then you'll begin to be able to ask the proper questions about how it works. 

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Prince Mandor    128
16 hours ago, psusi said:

Say what now?  The steam from the vent is both less than the minimum temperature and insufficient volume to drive even 1 port of the turbine.  It doesn't look like you are using the port blocking trick to get hot steam to one port either, and if you did, the power output would be very low, but you show full power.  The hydrogen vent temperature is plenty hot, but the mass is so minuscule, it isn't going to provide enough heat to run the turbine.

 

This is not about COOL Steam Vent, it is about normal steam vent with very hot steam

Edited by Prince Mandor

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psusi    189
4 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Quite well actually, considering that it is there purely for cooling the hydrogen and self powering the pumps. I built the hydrogen one last base and was impressed with just how efficient it was. (I knew it was good as Saturnus doesn't make posts like this until he's tested things thoroughly, but wow is it awesome.) 

Build it, watch it, realize it works, and then you'll begin to be able to ask the proper questions about how it works. 

Well I already explained what's wrong with the water one, but since you want to, let's look at the hydrogen one.  It looks like it is using the low pressure steam pocket on the left to trick the turbine into thinking there is high enough heat to run, without actually supplying it with enough pressure to do so.  The right side seems to hog the water, which will tend to keep the hydrogen going to the pump cooled down to 100 C.  Any extra heat will boil the water to steam, and when the pressure gets high enough, the turbine will run to eat the steam and replace it with 95 C water.  The pump of course, kicks on whenever the pressure is high enough to reduce the pressure so you don't block the vent, and dumps it into the infinite pressure storage below using the high pressure vent in liquid trick.

That looks pretty good, but why the logic to make sure only one pump is on at a time?  I wonder if I can use metal tiles instead of the diamond windows?  I think you can improve it a bit by having the first pump preferentially export the hydrogen directly rather than send it to the infinite storage, then you don't waste power pumping it twice unless your downstream gas storage and hydrogen generators fill up.

 

26 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

This is not about COOL Steam Vent, it is about normal steam vent with very hot steam

Ahh, that explains it.

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Saturnus    3536
43 minutes ago, psusi said:

That looks pretty good, but why the logic to make sure only one pump is on at a time?

So you avoid making excessive power wiring. I use this technique basically everywhere possible. I often have conductive wires which have in excess of 5KW potential load but because things connected to it are time sliced and/or mutually exclusive like here the actual maximum possible load on the wire is 2KW. It dramatically cuts the needed number of transformers.

48 minutes ago, psusi said:

 I wonder if I can use metal tiles instead of the diamond windows? 

I noted in the first post somewhere that you can but since we're talking a steam turbine build access to an oil biome is sort of given. And most people have enough diamond that they really don't know what to use it for.

51 minutes ago, psusi said:

I think you can improve it a bit by having the first pump preferentially export the hydrogen directly rather than send it to the infinite storage, then you don't waste power pumping it twice unless your downstream gas storage and hydrogen generators fill up.

Possibly. We're talking less than one watt on average though.

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