Saturnus

Introducing the split steam turbine and it's uses

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beowulf2010    528

Wow. Thanks! The timing of this is just about perfect. I was going to half ass a hydrogen vent tamer first thing next time I play. :D

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biopon    224

I usually just block off hot po2 vents, but this build is small enough to absolutely make it worth cracking them open.

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Tobruk    302

I read your post twice and I still can't quite grasp it. You mention using it to cool something that is below 125 and yet you present us with builts for geysers that are incredibly hot (around 500C). Are you by any chance using the "averaging" mechanic you mentioned to trick the steam engine, thinking it is receiving (on average) 200C and not 500C by using the cold steam?

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BLACKBERREST3    232

Let me know if I have this correct or not. When you average the incoming steam through the turbine, this is enough to cool itself with its 95C water output. So in other words, it does not generate or delete heat, it simply slows the temperature transfer to the turbine while still functioning like a normal turbine. This also means that if you try to cool itself without this divide, it would overheat because it takes on too much heat for its 95C water to cool it down.

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Saturnus    3,321
10 hours ago, Tobruk said:

I read your post twice and I still can't quite grasp it. You mention using it to cool something that is below 125 and yet you present us with builts for geysers that are incredibly hot (around 500C). Are you by any chance using the "averaging" mechanic you mentioned to trick the steam engine, thinking it is receiving (on average) 200C and not 500C by using the cold steam?

The source may be 500C (326.9C in the oil fissure case) but the amount of heat (except in the steam vents case) is very small and is easily cooled by a normal self-cooled steam turbine set up. However, a normal steam turbine set up would not be able to cool it below 126C thus necessitating steel pumps. And equally important, a normal steam turbine set up is in most of these cases not nearly as efficient at extracting the last bit of energy out of the heat, and thus not being able to be self-powered. In the steam vent case the steam room temperature can exceed what a steel aquatuner can tolerate (325C) if it's one with particularly powerful eruptions. That case yes, the split room makes the aquatuner sit in a separate room with lower steam temperature.

I should note the builds as presented can tame any of the vents in question. From the lowest to the highest possible output of them.

Edited by Saturnus
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Grimgaw    523
16 hours ago, Saturnus said:

A while ago I discovered that if you split the steam chamber of a steam turbine in two the steam turbine produces heat based on the average steam temperature and amount of all it's open input ports.

Nice discovery!

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Saturnus    3,321
9 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Yeah, as I said in what you quoted it was a while ago. Before @mathmanican's post on it. I just didn't have a practical use for it at the time.

Edited by Saturnus

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BLACKBERREST3    232
1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

Nice discovery!

Well turbine splitting has existed for a while and even though temp averaging within the turbine is not new, this is the first practical application I have seen.

Was already typing when you posted :p

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whodunit    2

Great post! But I'm not sure why this:

 

23 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Double bridge preventing the loop from blocking close up.

Is single bridge not a good idea? I've always been using a single one.

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Saturnus    3,321
15 hours ago, whodunit said:

Is single bridge not a good idea? I've always been using a single one.

No. It's not. It's been discussed at length in other threads. Single bridges can clog up and fail when overfilled (unless you have a valve or a double bridge elsewhere). Double bridge bypasses cannot fail.

Edited by Saturnus
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mathmanican    2,312

I posted about temp averaging and eating less than 2K steam, back when the new turbine came out. 

Spoiler

 

I also built a plan (Nov 2018), long before the new turbine came out, to circumvent this issue. 

Spoiler

 

All of these builds have been labeled as exploits by the community (no surprise).  The November 2018 build  left open the two sides, because people didn't like "port blocking".  The new turbine reduced inflow when you block ports, so it's not really a problem.  Being able to cool stuff way down to close to 100C was posted long ago.  

What I like, @Saturnus, about your recent posts on this topic are the recognition that you can greatly increase the temp of the material that comes in on one side of the turbine, provided you are willing to balance it on the other side. With 3 ports taking in 100C steam, you can get really hot steam through one port. This I have not been doing at all, but cooling stuff well below 125C I've been doing for quite a while (and stopped posting about it basically after the first few days it came out - due to exploit haters...) 

Or, you can trickle in tiny amounts of super heated steam to one vent, and let 3 other vents massively cool stuff below 125C. Or you don't have to trickle anything in.  There are lots of options. Thanks for sharing.  @Saturnus, I have enjoyed following your builds on the discord channel.  It's great to see you are quite active over there. 

 

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Saturnus    3,321

@mathmanican I don't think I ever claimed that blocked ports and temperature differentiation was something I've exclusively discovered. It's been common knowledge on the forum for ages. Thanks in large part to your posts. The section on how that works is just a summary for those that might not have payed attention.

What I do claim, at least as far as I know, is the much more important discovery that valves or any other passive pipe splitting set up cannot be trusted to split the return water output of a steam turbine correctly into the split turbine chambers, and finding a practical, reliable and simple solution to the problem.

These builds presented here will also be difficult for exploit haters to object to since there's no exploits involved (unless you count the infinite hydrogen storage in the hydrogen vent tamer which some still object to). Blocking ports on a steam turbine cannot be considered an exploit as long as you feed each port the amount of steam it's supposed to take in as is done here. The builds are not using micrograms of steam on one port heated from a practically infinite heat source to trick the steam turbine or anything else involving the steam turbine set ups that could possibly be considered an exploit.

Thinking that blocking ports is somehow in and of itself an exploit is a legacy from the old steam turbine where it definitely was. The current implementation of the steam turbine correctly identifies blocked ports and the steam turbine changes behaviour accordingly so if some people think that blocking outputs of the steam turbine is still an exploit then they can stick that opinion where the Sun don't shine as it has no merit whatsoever.

Edited by Saturnus
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Oozinator    2,375
32 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

...can stick that opinion where the Sun don't shine as it has no merit whatsoever.

When they use lubricant for it, i would call it an exploit!
pointer.jpg.e93d9bf08250203863d421a01ceca36e.jpg

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beowulf2010    528
12 minutes ago, Gamers Handbook said:

@Saturnus Please forgive my ignorance, but why not just have the pipe make a T for 50/50 water distribution?  Is it unreliable with flows that aren't constant?

Yes, it is extremely unreliable. A T junction in pipes will split the packets 50/50, which is fine if all packets are guaranteed to be identical sizes. But if the packets are 2kg-8kg-2kg-8kg-2kg-8kg, you will get 6kg one way and 24kg the other way. Bridged junctions are the same, but can actually be worse due to their ability to send 100% of a flow one way if the other way is full.

(Note: I never use T junctions anymore. I always bridge into/out of junctions. I can explain more if you'd like.)

Valve junctions also do not work as if you set a valve to 5kg (50%) but your packets are inconsistent and average only 5kg, the vast majority of the water will be sent only one way.

Saturnus found the only way to guarantee a long term average 50% split on the output water by measuring the steam volume in one chamber and diverting the excess water to the second steam chamber via shutoff valve.

Edited by beowulf2010
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Saturnus    3,321
22 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Yes, it is extremely unreliable. A T junction in pipes will split the packets 50/50, which is fine if all packets are guaranteed to be identical sizes. But if the packets are 2kg-8kg-2kg-8kg-2kg-8kg, you will get 6kg one way and 24kg the other way. Bridged junctions are the same, but can actually be worse due to their ability to send 100% of a flow one way if the other way is full.

(Note: I never use T junctions anymore. I always bridge into/out of junctions. I can explain more if you'd like.)

Valve junctions also do not work as if you set a valve to 5kg (50%) but your packets are inconsistent and average only 5kg, the vast majority of the water will be sent only one way.

Saturnus found the only way to guarantee a long term average 50% split on the output water by measuring the steam volume in one chamber and diverting the excess water to the second steam chamber via shutoff valve.

I can expand on that and say that the return water mass can vary between 800g/s and 1600g/s.

I've also found that a T-junction first packet preferred direction resets after a while so if you have an odd number of packets that will also cause variance.

And since we're talking about builds that run over 100s of cycles that will eventually lead to one of the steam chambers becoming a vacuum (that's how I found out in the first place).

All builds demonstrated here have run for minimum 400 cycles.

Edited by Saturnus
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The steam vent build keeps having a hard time starting up. getting over pressure before the initial start has even warmed up the petroleum, drywall, or tempshifts, so the vent goes idle. Also, does the steam tamer work for cool steam vents, or is it overkill?

Edited by FSharpDotNet
added more questions

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Yunru    1,127

If valves are unreliable for not working on Portal 3 not splitting smaller packets evenly, why not just stick a packet stacker in-line so that it only receives full packets?

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Saturnus    3,321
2 hours ago, FSharpDotNet said:

The steam vent build keeps having a hard time starting up. getting over pressure before the initial start has even warmed up the petroleum, drywall, or tempshifts, so the vent goes idle. Also, does the steam tamer work for cool steam vents, or is it overkill?

What you can do is set the temp sensor controlling the steam turbines lower than 100C, and set the cooling loop temperature lower so that the aquatuner needs to run and increase temperature in the aquatuner chamber until the turbine start running releasing the pressure in the large steam room..

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Craigjw    325

For the Hydrogen geyser, the top left air pressure sensor, I'd like to confirm that you have set this at 20g of pressure?

Thanks in advance.

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Saturnus    3,321
49 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

For the Hydrogen geyser, the top left air pressure sensor, I'd like to confirm that you have set this at 20g of pressure?

Thanks in advance.

No, 20kg... or 20.000g as it says. The maximum setting (in vanilla game).

Edited by Saturnus
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Craigjw    325

yes, 20g is definitely the maximum.... :D

Has this been adapted for a cool steam vent at all?  I tried making one in survival however it wasn't entirely successful as condensation didn't happen quickly enough and the the steam vent became overpressure too quickly.

 

 

 

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Ixenzo    39

I take it you must vacuum out the steam chambers so that lighter-than-steam gases don't block turbine ports? From what I see in sandbox, injecting CO2, ethanol gas, sour gas or chlorine into the chamber has no long-term consequences, and the tiles get eventually deleted, whereas hydrogen, natgas, oxygen, and PO2 stick around in the ceiling and block the ports.

I even pumped ethanol into the big steam chamber where it would be constantly and reliably deleted at small enough quantities per second. Though if one were to delete heat via injecting superheated gas into the chamber, heating up steam, and deleting the now temperature equalized gas, a pipe radiator with a release to space has much higher throughput without any chance of blocking the intake ports :)

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