Fi7iP

I think AI in DST need a remwork

What is your opinion on AI in DST?  

107 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your opinion on AI in DST?

    • It's good as it is.
      29
    • A small change would be good.
      59
    • It needs a big remwork.
      19


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Sunset Skye    3,935
12 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

"An uncompromising wilderness survival game"

On 9/18/2019 at 4:46 PM, JoeW said:

Very early on we let people know that if multiplayer were ever to come DS, it could not be the same as how it was designed as a single player experience, so we did avoid the "uncompromising" message when we first started on DST

 

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mrxarous    173

I think many forget that DST is based of the same lua that Don't Starve was built on. It's old and outdated, but that's what we have to work with. I would love one day for DS/DST to be remade with modern engine to help with AI, memleaks, and more but it's not going to happen. Klei is still an indie company that don't have the manpower or profits to fund a complete overall or remastered in Unity or similar. If they changed the AI brains of mobs, Abigail, and more it would be great and I am sure they think this, but maybe at this time the system/foundation this game is built on could not sustain such changes or improvements. Keeping it simpler might keep the game open to a larger player base.

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Ogrecakes    1,407
8 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

 

Treeguard's are in regular DS.

Put some thought in before stalking my posts and playing devils advocate.

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Sunset Skye    3,935
19 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

Treeguard's are in regular DS.

Put some thought in before stalking my posts and playing devils advocate.

This is a thread about DST on the DST forum and you're still using the "uncompromising" buzzword that's been purposely avoided by the devs, that's silly.

20 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

Either way, I don't believe this excuses over half of the game's ai being cave man levels of primitive. Most of these exploits are so bad you might as well just start spawning items in with console commands. 

Horrible acts which are on the same level as using console commands:
- Lucky gold nugget farm which only works for a few weeks every 12 years.
- Leading a treeguard all the way to a pig house so you save a few pinecones it would've taken to pacify it.

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Mencken    311

It would be cool if one of the mobs (spider maybe) had a much higher level of A.I., coordinated unprovoked attacks on player bases, etc.  and the ability to roam far away from their nests.  

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Crimson Chin    471
1 minute ago, Electroely said:

Let's see you kill Bee Queen on day one or something using the infinite amount of resources you get with the AI these mobs have, then.

Yeah. There is definitely a way to just cheese bee queen :(. So honestly I can do that. Bee queen is boring anyways, all combat is, once you know what do to. Its just... memory. That's the problem, it always has been. Nothing added to the game will ever be remotely challenging at this point unless combat gets fully reworked. I've said it a thousand times, but I don't think it was smart to design the game's difficulty entirely around not being aware of something, when the game is supposed to be infinitely replayable. 

3 minutes ago, Electroely said:

You can actually pacify Treeguards by planting pine cones near them. It's not a bug or an exploit. Why exactly is doing that but with a pigman instead cheesy, exactly? In case you didn't know, Treeguards will aggro on you again if you start chopping trees near them. So it's not like you can just make them forget you and go back to doing the one thing Treeguards are made to prevent/slow down either.

Again none of this matters. Is anyone really going to die to the extremely slow and non-lethal tree guard? Just remember the hits like I said, and if you are wearing a football helmet, your practically god. Tree guards are jokes! Almost every enemy is! Exploits just add onto this already broken system.

8 minutes ago, Electroely said:

Anyway, I think the way mobs currently work is fine. I think it gives walls a use other than decoration, and there aren't any game-breaking exploits you can do with them to warrant a change to how the game's worked for so long. The best thing you can do with it is probably a pig farm, and even that's just a way for you to invest logs, rocks and pig skin into a source of more pig skin (even if we assume killing the werepigs on a full moon was instant and free - it's not game-breaking). If it were problematic for a certain mob to get stuck, that mob will probably be made to attack walls (see: spiders and hounds)

Justifying exploits and making combat a joke for walls to have another use besides looking pretty is silly. I'm not talking about just wall exploits either, there are.. so many it honestly just makes the game feel broken. None of this stuff feels right and just really feels like bad game design. 

But yeah, even if every single exploit got fixed somehow, combat would still be a joke since its entirely based on memory, no skill at all is required. The game isn't engaging and these exploits just add on to that.

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Sunset Skye    3,935
11 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

You have explained very well, but you have the wrong interlocutor. For him DST is perfect, every suggestion or criticism even to the most obvious deficiencies is something idiotic and meaningless. Don't waste any more time on a sterile discussion ;)

That's a nice idea, but no, I do not consider DST perfect, it's a very very flawed game to me. Mob AI having quirks like this is the least of the game's problems, honestly.
- Basic actions like farming spiders are a whole task, because of higher mob health applying to both spider warriors and queens.
- The caves are huge and largely uninteresting, and the ruins basically force you to prepare tons of armor and healing items if you want to clear them out properly.
- You have to go all the way down to the ruins any time you want to craft more ancient items.
- Farming pigskin for football helmets is a whole process, requiring you to either deal with werepigs or use a moonstone farm that only works on full moons.
- Lower protection and durability from armor means any combat in general will require tons of preparation to make sure you have enough armor and healing items.
- Even the best and easiest healing foods require a whole task to obtain, like fishing or gathering veggies and eggs or farming mushrooms.
- Summer is just annoying without exploits, since you have to kill or pacify the Antlion and then live in the sandstorm, or you have to live down in the caves.
- Deerclops eyeballs are limited to 1-2 every ~9 hours of gameplay, no matter how skilled you are or how far you are into the endgame.
- Periodic hound attacks are nothing but an annoyance with no good solution except just relogging so the game skips over you.
- Even boss items like mushroom lights require maintenance and repeated boss kills if you want them to make any impact.
I really don't understand why people talk about how DST needs to be more "uncompromising" when it's the least compromising of the two games. I live a peaceful life in my DS world with a nice house, seasonal hazards that either do nothing or can be shut off by tooting on my dripple pipes, and a huge supply of fresh fruit crepes, yet I've never even gotten to a completely "peaceful" part of DST.

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Crimson Chin    471
5 hours ago, Electroely said:

The fastest speedrun I've found on YouTube was on day 2, and that used a rollback (effectively a seeded world) and an exploit that's already been patched. I'd love to see you record a day 1 kill, then.

Wow this is petty, don't you think :? ? I don't care what day I do it, bee queen is still exploitable.

 

5 hours ago, Electroely said:

I find DST to be very, very replayable. I have put a ton of hours into this game and I know I'll be putting tons more in the future. I don't play it for its difficulty - any game is easy as pie once you've put enough time into it - I just enjoy it in different ways. Different characters, different objectives, different people to play with are all ways you can spice up the game.

How are any of the characters THAT different? Each character is essentially Wilson with some minor differences, none of them change your playstyle all that much. Is playing one REALLY going to change your experience all that much? Wormwood is a better example of a character, but its nowhere near actually significantly changing how you play. What different objectives are there? DST fails there as a sandbox, as choosing any other "option" than the most common one boils down to crippling yourself. I will give you the last one though, the only reason I really play DST once in a while anymore is because of my friends with PVP or just clowning around on public servers with other randoms. We never really get fun out of playing the game the intended way... because its not engaging. 

 

5 hours ago, Electroely said:

If it doesn't matter, then why bring it up at all? This "broken system" is just a system you've figured out. The system works fine. I've seen players die to Treeguards on public servers before. And plus, can distracting a Treeguard even be considered an exploit? It's not like switching targets is an automatic process every mob is capable of doing by default. It's coded into every mob manually. the developers made Treeguards work like this.

Why would anyone that knows how to kite a tree guard ever die to a tree guard, or even get hit by one? New players maybe, but that's the problem. The game is only challenging once you are new, once you play enough that just goes away since its entirely based around memory. DST is no where near as replayable as games like terraria or Minecraft... Does challenge just... disappear in those games once you know what's a threat? Maybe I shouldn't say the combat system is broken, but ... its extremely ineffective........ and unengaging.  Again, the tree guard thing doesn't really matter, I was using that more as an example of how easy combat is. You can lose aggro of any boss really with just a pig.

 

5 hours ago, Electroely said:

Some of the post-ANR boss fights can be pretty engaging. They test your reaction time and positioning skills. If you think a certain method is too unfair and makes the game feel broken... then don't use it! I never spam tentacles on my worlds, for example. I don't put 4 ice flingomatics at Toadstool, either. I don't enjoy those methods of killing these bosses, so i avoid them. I'll fight any boss without external tools if I have friends helping me out, and if I'm playing alone, catapults are a nice substitute for friends if they're necessary. The only boss I really use an exploit for is Dragonfly, and that's because the fight is still pretty challenging without the Lavae.

 ANR bosses certainly test your patience rather than your reaction time or positioning skills. Again, we can go into how exploits just add onto these issues, but the combat system is inherently flawed. These bosses are boring health sponges that drop nothing of value really. These exploits are optional, but why would you actually bother fighting the already boring boss if you can just use this one exploit you found online to make it even less engaging? Exploits hurt the game's ability to engage you, and like I said this is even worse stacked on top of how unengaging the combat system already is!

1 hour ago, Sunset Skye said:

I really don't understand why people talk about how DST needs to be more "uncompromising" when it's the least compromising of the two games. I live a peaceful life in my DS world with a nice house, seasonal hazards that either do nothing or can be shut off by tooting on my dripple pipes, and a huge supply of fresh fruit crepes, yet I've never even gotten to a completely "peaceful" part of DST.

I can agree with a lot of what you said, but that's the thing, a majority of the game's current "difficulty" is based entirely around tedium, and that's no fun is it? I think most people can agree BOTH games suffer the same flaws. That's the thing about difficulty being based around memory and the current combat system. ANY form of "challenge" will either just be tedious or unfun with the current system. THATS WHAT I WANT TO CHANGE. Why are we okay with just... letting it stay like this? Why not even try? DST has so much potential....... but at this rate it doesn't even look like Klei is going to try anything new. I just can't understand why some people seem so unwilling to try ... something new. Anything new they release will ALWAYS suffer the same flaws unless they try and change this.

Edited by Crimson Chin
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Rosten    909
On 10/12/2019 at 1:08 PM, Lammarr said:

I don't understand why someone would like food to be a real problem,i'm pretty sure it never was from the start and gathering food is pretty boring imo.(well at least in this game with the ruins and raid bosses and stuff,you know)

*sigh*

This fanbase really doesn't know anything about it's origins, does it? The game is titled "Don't Starve" and the design revolves around using hunger as a mechanism to force you to explore and interact with the world. Once food is conquered, especially in DST where half of the giants are happy to sit around and wait for you to come fight them when you feel like it, the game becomes so much more boring and easy.

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Seero    738
On 10/12/2019 at 1:00 PM, Fi7iP said:

without farms

What kind of farms?

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Lammarr    1,023
2 hours ago, Rosten said:

*sigh*

This fanbase really doesn't know anything about it's origins, does it? The game is titled "Don't Starve" and the design revolves around using hunger as a mechanism to force you to explore and interact with the world. Once food is conquered, especially in DST where half of the giants are happy to sit around and wait for you to come fight them when you feel like it, the game becomes so much more boring and easy.

The truth is starving never was a problem from the start.(yes,i'm talking about don't starve,not don't starve together)

Also the type of challenge i want is forced ones,like seasons,they're way more fun then gathering boring food.

I just really want the hecking aporkalypse in don't starve together,seriously.

Edited by Lammarr

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Rosten    909
3 minutes ago, Lammarr said:

The truth is starving never was a problem from the start.(yes,i'm talking about don't starve,not don't starve together)

Starving has always been a problem in Don't Starve. Until you learn how to make infinite dragonfruit farms, I suppose.

But largely the point wasn't that you'd _die_ from starvation, it's that you'd die fighting monsters or exploring so you don't die from starvation. It's a type of challenge that's forced on your organically, similar to how ONI requires you to make closed systems with as little waste as possible just because if you don't, you run out of resources faster than you can get them. 

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Lammarr    1,023
43 minutes ago, Rosten said:

Starving has always been a problem in Don't Starve. Until you learn how to make infinite dragonfruit farms, I suppose.

But largely the point wasn't that you'd _die_ from starvation, it's that you'd die fighting monsters or exploring so you don't die from starvation. It's a type of challenge that's forced on your organically, similar to how ONI requires you to make closed systems with as little waste as possible just because if you don't, you run out of resources faster than you can get them. 

Bad example with dragonfruit farms but alright.

Starving still is not really a problem because combat itself and exploration gives you food and i actually agree with the decision of removing A.I exploits to get easy food,i just really want unforgiving mechanics instead of trying to make one that never was a problem harder.

Btw don't voice my opinion as the entire fanbases' lmao.

Edited by Lammarr

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Rosten    909
57 minutes ago, Lammarr said:

Starving still is not really a problem because combat itself and exploration gives you food

That's -the point-. Not starving to death requires that you explore and fight things constantly. And things that make food trivial mean you no longer have any reason to do riskier means of getting food.

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Lammarr    1,023
1 minute ago, Rosten said:

That's -the point-. Not starving to death requires that you explore and fight things constantly. And things that make food trivial mean you no longer have any reason to do riskier means of getting food.

Alright i'm going to admit i'm a bone-head,sorry for even saying a single word in this thread.

Now if you excuse me i'm going to silently stop discussing here,have a good day/afternoon/night.

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Butt Pillow    196

Really high value discourse going on in this topic. Love the fluid amount of awareness that "THIS PERSON DOESN'T AGREE WITH EVERYONE OF MY CRITICISMS THEY ONLY HAVE BLIND APOLOGIA." ;) I better kill my vargling to feel better about how destroyed this game is.

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JackJohnsn    138
On 10/14/2019 at 7:09 AM, Sunset Skye said:

This is a thread about DST on the DST forum and you're still using the "uncompromising" buzzword that's been purposely avoided by the devs, that's silly.

Speaking of purposely being ignored by devs, aren't you the same person that uploaded a twig icon from Gorge to workshop without clearly crediting the source, wrote 1 page of life story on the workshop item's description, then removed every comment that pointed this out and put a status on his profile for people "not to add him because of his work"?

I think you misunderstood the meaning of ignoring people.

Edited by JackJohnsn

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Atsumame    319
1 hour ago, JackJohnsn said:

Speaking of purposely being ignored by devs, aren't you the same person that uploaded a twig icon from Gorge to workshop without clearly crediting the source, wrote 1 page of life story on the workshop item's description, then removed every comment that pointed this out and put a status on his profile for people "not to add him because of his work"?

I think you misunderstood the meaning of ignoring people.

The mod is not only supposed to be a satire joke about the modding of the game as a whole, but the whole thing about comments being deleted is literally so another joke comment is the only one left. The fact people are taking it seriously mean the satire worked and people fell for it entirely.

I know this because I'm the person who suggested the horrid description as an idea and people STILL fell for it. 

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JackJohnsn    138
2 minutes ago, Atsumame said:

The mod is not only supposed to be a satire joke about the modding of the game as a whole, but the whole thing about comments being deleted is literally so another joke comment is the only one left. The fact people are taking it seriously mean the satire worked and people fell for it entirely.

I know this because I'm the person who suggested the horrid description as an idea and people STILL fell for it. 

I didn't know workshop is a place for making fun of people and jokes, I thought it was a place for productive people to publish the result of their works. But now that I know, I sure will post some jokes too!

Edited by JackJohnsn
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Atsumame    319
1 minute ago, JackJohnsn said:

I didn't know workshop is a place for making fun of people and jokes, I thought it was a place for productive people to publish the result of their works. But now that I know, I sure will post some jokes too!

Feel free to go ahead then, Joke mods or meme mods have been a thing since forever on modding communities regardless of what you thought of said communities. Be it steam workshop or nexus websites ect.

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