BLACKBERREST3

Hydrogen Power Plant: Can it be any more compact?

Recommended Posts

BLACKBERREST3    232

Part of my "cheese" base where I see how leisurely I can beat the game and dig up the whole map. I've got food for carnivore in the bag, now I need a bigger spom to deal with refineries. I delayed it as much as possible and now my dupes are idle. The height of each floor plays a part in the design of the spom I'm working on.

Spoiler

base.thumb.png.9dc22cd2da2acbcd331593469b80c5f0.png

I used @Mullematsch's spom design from this post. I'm wondering if it can be any smaller, specifically around the electrolyzers.

normal.thumb.png.16db75161bac786c118bebfd0d08b163.png

focus.thumb.png.ec2121c51a50d9dc1dce1ff0bfa75891.png

 

overlays

Spoiler

power.thumb.png.802fe694cdc5e2b45f2c3346efefba0f.png

automation1.thumb.png.46d5202bc01c43a996f851918374715f.png

gas.thumb.png.168ee0ceb638f9bd351ac41fd2a290b8.png

I've tried to make it more compact, but it was not working out so well. I thought maybe there was a core mechanic that would let me place them next to each other. I couldn't find one, maybe someone else has. I also didn't have much luck in stacking them vertically either.

Spoiler

alternate.png.84430a4ed1cccb23b5ad69d4d9c3367f.png

Hydrogen Power Plant 8kw.blueprint

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bobucles    335
Posted (edited)

Is that some polluted water? I figured it'd off gas and start breaking things. Pretty sure that design existed before salt water, so a slight change of fluids should still work.

If I remember correctly, the trick with electrolyzers is that the top layer of water does the same trick as placing water in front of air vents.  The water can't hold air, but at the same time it does not block electrolyzer output so it can pump out unlimited air. The air flow tiles act as the filter. Oxygen looks for a nearby oxygen tile so it goes into the side, and hydrogen looks for the nearest tile, above. I've seen a build where the hydrogen and oxygen sides are reversed, so it doesn't have to be hydrogen on top.

Do you really need things more compact? Eight fully unblocked electrolyzers is easily enough oxygen for 60 dupes! If anything I'm surprised there's only 11 oxygen pumps, it should be able to handle a few more.

Edited by bobucles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bobucles said:

If anything I'm surprised there's only 11 oxygen pumps, it should be able to handle a few more.

True, but it's more for the hydrogen than oxygen. The extra pumps might as well be decoration until I use them for rocketry. I can't have my dupes running all day. Oxygen is the waste gas in this circumstance. This is for intermediate power before I get to steam turbines or solar panels. It's going to be a little bit until I can move on to petroleum generators because I'm going after all achievements in this run.

Good catch. You are right about the polluted water, but once it's seeded I like to keep a minimum amount of pressure so it doesn't break the system due to a vacuum. Oxygen is easier to seed than hydrogen. I could use any liquid so I will probably use the salt water pocket next to my base.

2 hours ago, bobucles said:

Do you really need things more compact?

I don't need it to be compact, I was just wondering if it could be. I tried all sorts of configs and this is the only one that stuck. I could get the electrolyzers to share walls, just not liquids.

2 hours ago, bobucles said:

I've seen a build where the hydrogen and oxygen sides are reversed

I thought I could seed it by pulling a vacuum with those 2 pumps. Man was I wrong. With that size of a room, it takes way too many cycles. I think I will do just that and let you know if I can seed it right.

Edited by BLACKBERREST3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232
Posted (edited)

That was tough, I found a method to seed it properly. Also, nakomaru pointed out to me that hydrogen on top has potential to destroy liquids so I switched it around for that reason too. When first building it, make sure there is no carbon dioxide on the top layer. If there is, you might have to pull a vac, but that should be easy with 11 pumps and 8 dupes. When only oxygen is on the top layer, you are half way done. You could risk it from here and save/load until you get hydrogen building up from the airflow tiles. I decided to put a precautionary filter from the top pumps to the hydrogen room. This ended up not being necessary for me as the seed took place anyways (I deconstructed the filters before I took the picture, the vents are remnants of this). Once hydrogen started building up, it was only a matter of deconstructing the bottom tiles to get rid of the extra oxygen.

image.thumb.png.0d2f3ae6fc494e28fc9cd467c7ea5fe1.png

Instead of taking 20 cycles to seed the system, this process only took me 8.

Edited by BLACKBERREST3
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nakomaru    1,385
Posted (edited)

By the way, I think you inadvertantly used a solution for the problem with hydrogen on the top by placing a tile on the top left, rather than top right or none at all, which caused me problems. @mathmanican and others have shown that that design, which teleports the hydrogen to the top right, was reliable. Sorry, I forgot about this and didn't look closely when I recommended hydrogen on the bottom.

The rust deoxidizer can't be tiled like that so you should always do oxygen on the top for that.

I use the same spacing - I don't know how to make it any denser. I don't think the right electrolyzer will be able to properly function.

Edited by nakomaru
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232
8 hours ago, nakomaru said:

By the way, I think you inadvertantly used a solution for the problem with hydrogen on the top by placing a tile on the top left, rather than top right or none at all, which caused me problems. @mathmanican and others have shown that that design, which teleports the hydrogen to the top right, was reliable. Sorry, I forgot about this and didn't look closely when I recommended hydrogen on the bottom.

The rust deoxidizer can't be tiled like that so you should always do oxygen on the top for that.

I use the same spacing - I don't know how to make it any denser. I don't think the right electrolyzer will be able to properly function.

Edited 7 hours ago by nakomaru

Oh! That sounds a lot like liquid bypass mechanics at play, but I didn't know that could destroy liquids too. I thought it only displaced them, unless it displaces them into two media at once and destroys one of them. I've also noticed some whacky mechanics going on with airflow tiles. It would seem as though they just repel water and prevent it from grounding, but there were other situations which led me to believe more than 1 mechanic was at play. I can't be sure though. Edit. iirc, when I put the airflow tile on the top left, liquid was being pushed around which would over pressurize it  temporarily, but this had no effect on placement of the gasses, only an effect on efficiency (95% uptime).

The right most electrolyzer works for me, it could just be visual because the manual door is grounding the water. I think you're talking about "if" spacing were to be more compact the right most electrolyzer wouldn't function. I can't tell though.

I never thought about using the rust deoxidizers that way before. Rust is finite from what I can remember so I'm just gonna save it in a pile on my map. If someone were to put the chlorine room on the bottom, they wouldn't be able to use the same seeding method i did (weight of gasses), they would probably have to pull a complete vacuum in their chlorine room. I wouldn't even want that big of a room for it anyway, unless you had rails and sweepers in it for disinfection.

I guess that answers my question of "could it be smaller?" (answer is no). Originality goes to you guys, nako and mullem.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
biopon    224
20 hours ago, bobucles said:

I figured it'd off gas

Not to the side or below. And not above 1800g pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232
22 minutes ago, SharraShimada said:

This is, of course, you dont mind mods.

I like mods that don't change gameplay too much. I have almost every QoL mod you can think of installed rn. Part of the fun for this game (for me) is trying to solve a problem with what you are given in the game. I will admit that pliers is op though. here is a list of my favorites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimgaw    523
12 hours ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

Originality goes to you guys, nako and mullem.

Literally first month of Alpha.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ketmol    146

Is it possible to do something similar with rust dioxidizer. Bering 3 tiles high i guess it is a bit trickier. Especially since you do have to distribute salt to them aswell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nakomaru    1,385
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ketmol said:

Is it possible to do something similar with rust dioxidizer. Bering 3 tiles high i guess it is a bit trickier. Especially since you do have to distribute salt to them aswell.

capture_001_20190722_053651.png

Edited by nakomaru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ketmol    146

@nakomaru Thanks. I wasn't sure if it worked with the 2 top tiles of the dioxidizer not covered by liquid. Being 3 tiles tall. I guess that, you could choose to have the chlorine on top and oxygen below just as well?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nakomaru    1,385
11 minutes ago, Ketmol said:

@nakomaru Thanks. I wasn't sure if it worked with the 2 top tiles of the dioxidizer not covered by liquid. Being 3 tiles tall. I guess that, you could choose to have the chlorine on top and oxygen below just as well?

This is what I have been going on about. With oxygen on the bottom, in my experience, you must have a tile on the top left of the liquid. This cannot be done with the rust deoxidizer. So keep your oxygen on the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232
8 hours ago, fishoutofwater said:

excuse me, I missed why venting hydrogen down is better design?

The way to set it up is to first fill one room with oxygen and the other with hydrogen or fill the spaces adjacent to the electrolyzer with these gasses which is what I did. The build will break if you have a vacuum in either, only 1 type of gas, etc. where the output for the electrolyzer is. Hydrogen rises. It was easier for me to get hydrogen on the bottom without needing to pull a vacuum. Sometimes it will sort out the gasses on it's own with hydrogen on the bottom, but this can be random if it only sees 1 type of gas.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232

I improved the power and insulation layout of the build. I wanted to restart to hunt achievement saves and I figured I would improve on this.

All buildings inside the gas chamber are gold amalgam now. Insulation is igneous. I added radiant pipes to future proof the system.

Hydrogen Power Plant 8kw.blueprint

 

image.thumb.png.23aa2df852afe7b45cdcd7fc03888b4d.png

image.thumb.png.ed1eb2d4f065ee9821d36e2f5cc12298.png

image.thumb.png.a7f7e64aa3b887bcc50ba105f409750f.png

image.thumb.png.78f040ec4d5aaf3aa7c9964eb3ac8d5d.png

image.thumb.png.a64b429d172e601f1424255aab53dbde.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232

I don't know the science to it, but I was able to seed it again. There seems to be a preference for hydrogen to the left. This may be because the oxygen has a higher/lower pressure on the top. It could also have something to do with output order, I have no idea.

image.thumb.png.99f702b72259c09f84a30786d49e0997.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232

I tried reading more about this mechanic. Even Red Shark took an educated guess as to why this happens.

On 7/21/2019 at 12:27 PM, Red Shark said:

When the electrolyzer is covered by liquid (but not flooded), the created gas will be created in the top-left tile. Then, the liquid will attempt to flow back into the top-left tile. Since the gas has an airflow tile it can flow through, it allows itself to be pushed left as well, and the system "resets" with the gas beyond the membrane, and the 4 tiles of liquid back overtop the electrolyzer..

If this is the only way the gas has to exit, it will push both oxygen and hydrogen through to the left. On the other hand, if the tile above the top-right square of the electrolyzer has either oxygen or hydrogen, the resultant gas will be created there, with the other gas being pushed to the top-left tile as before. Unfortunately, that doesn't give a very good explanation of why the gas goes there iff a matching element is already there. My guess is that the hydrogen gets created, then squeezed diagonally when the liquid tries to flow back into the space, but that diagonal squeeze only works if the element is already present in the destination cell.

 

My guess is this "diagonal squeeze" or "Liquid-Gas bypass" preferences the gas that occupies the space above it. If it can't output anywhere in case a third gas occupies either spot next to the electrolyzer, then the liquid is permanently displaced over-pressurizing the electrolyzer. How would you even test this. I'll have to see if this preference works on the rust deoxidizer too.

Edited by BLACKBERREST3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimgaw    523
13 hours ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

I tried reading more about this mechanic. Even Red Shark took an educated guess as to why this happens.

No guessing here.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232
7 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

No guessing here.

That helps tremendously, thanks.

We do have to account for the patch where vacuum racing is no longer a thing, but at least this explains where oxygen is produced and in what order.

Edited by BLACKBERREST3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLACKBERREST3    232

@Grimgaw, There is something I'm not getting from the diagram. 1 is blocked from a solid tile and 4 is blocked from the bottom liquid acting as a full tile. If all but position H, 2, and 3 is blocked, shouldn't the oxygen preference towards the left first. Yet every time I've seeded it, it preferences the top. I'm still unsure of why the gasses choose to do this. Is it because oxygen is first pushed to the left then hydrogen follows it and stays in the left? Then the next sequence would put the oxygen at position 3 where it would act like the vent in water trick.

Edited by BLACKBERREST3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Red Shark    110
On 10/14/2019 at 7:53 AM, Grimgaw said:

No guessing here.

Yeah, the one thing this doesn't address is the gas elements moving diagonally, which isn't possible normally, and does not happen if the diagonal space is in a vacuum.

There shouldn't be a left/right preference, as you can have either gas in either position. (Just seed the "above" space with the gas you want to contain there.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lucaman    0
On 07/10/2019 at 9:56 AM, Iluinrandir said:

20191007105315_1.thumb.jpg.51f6869a3b348c75c3b716b1ce9dfae0.jpg

You want to have a hydrogen power room with a power station because else you are wasting a lot of hydrogen.

 

Could you show us the overlays? And why do you have motion sensors ? Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now