A new take on Battery Switching / Regular Wire Power Grids

[Oni Noob]

This idea is pretty. I just one question whats the purpose of the small transformers if you can disconnect a wire to avoid overloading?

[mathmanican]

2 hours ago, Oni Noob said:

the purpose of the small transformers

They draw power from the batteries and dump it back into the system. Without them, your batteries will never discharge.  

[Oni Noob]

27 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

They draw power from the batteries and dump it back into the system. Without them, your batteries will never discharge.  

Sorry this is fairly new to me. So a group of consumers requires a tranformer? Is that it?

[nakomaru]

20 minutes ago, Oni Noob said:

Sorry this is fairly new to me. So a group of consumers requires a tranformer? Is that it?

For battery switches, a group of consumers requires batteries. A group of producers requires transformers (and it's nice to have batteries there too).

[Oni Noob]

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

For battery switches, a group of consumers requires batteries. A group of producers requires transformers (and it's nice to have batteries there too).

Do you have screenshot on how it works. So for example I have Hydrogen generator does it mean that all I need to use transformer after the Hydrogen Generator?

[nakomaru]

On 10/8/2019 at 12:10 PM, Oni Noob said:

Do you have screenshot on how it works. So for example I have Hydrogen generator does it mean that all I need to use transformer after the Hydrogen Generator?

See @Mullematsch's pictures in the first page for the basic switching battery setup. You can ignore the top parts and just look at the hydrogen generator section. I think the original post in this thread shows the consumer side in the video too. Probably Tonyroid and JohnFrancis have done videos on it too.

The general layout is

1. generators
2. (heavy wire)
3. smart battery
4. (heavy wire)
5. up to 12 heavy transformers
6. (any wire, main line)
7. switching batteries
8. (appropriate wire for consumers)
9. consumers

GHandbook shows an alternative to the part up to the transformers.

[Oni Noob]

@nakomaru Thanks for pointing out the picture and answering my question. sorry but I got another question, why does it need multiple tranformers? 

[nakomaru]

TLDR: you need to charge quickly enough so your backup batteries never run out of power.

Here's what a charging cycle looks like on a battery switch. On the right side are consumers. Most of the time, the right (primary) battery is supplying the consumers (white). But when it gets below 8000J it disconnects and touches the main line (purple) with the transformers.

When this happens, the transformers (purple) rapidly charge the right battery. During that time the left (backup) battery connects to the consumers and supplies power.

If you have a lot of transformers, this process is very quick like you see above. On my end game maps it is usually one frame.

If you don't have enough transformers, multiple battery stations might demand power at the same time and they will charge slower. If it charges too slowly, the backup battery will run out of power before the primary battery recharges.

[Oni Noob]

10 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

you need to charge quickly enough so your backup batteries never run out of power.

Sorry I am being a noob here, I am not sure whats with tranformers but why not have multiple batteries then instead of a tranformers? And also is there a reason why we are using heavy watt wires in the power producers?

[nakomaru]

Batteries cannot charge batteries. You need transformers to charge batteries. Each one increases the instantaneous max power by 4kW.

Because transformers are 4kW consumers on the production side, you need heavy watt or they will break. Or you can do like the OP in this thread described and use many 1kW transformers.

Here's a tiny power plant that can handle 20kW instantaneous (i.e. one switch from 0 to full in 1 second) and 4kW average. To increase the average I would add more power plants and a couple more batteries. With only 2 batteries, it can only charge at 20kW for about 4 seconds, and then it is sustained at 4kW.

Spoiler

Spoiler

The heavy watt feeds the transformers. On the top right is the main line (purple).

[Oni Noob]

7 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Batteries cannot charge batteries. You need transformers to charge batteries. Each one increases the instantaneous max power by 4kW.

Because transformers are 4kW consumers on the production side, you need heavy watt or they will break. Or you can do like the OP in this thread described and use many 1kW transformers.

Here's a tiny power plant that can handle 20kW instantaneous (i.e. one switch from 0 to full in 1 second) and 4kW average. To increase the average I would add more power plants and a couple more batteries. With only 2 batteries, it can only charge at 20kW for about 4 seconds, and then it is sustained at 4kW.

  Hide contents

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The heavy watt feeds the transformers. On the top right is the main line (purple).

Thanks for a very clear explanation and answering my questions. Its very clear now time to try it out. Thanks again

[KittenIsAGeek]

I've been very busy this week, but in another week I'll have time to get into the game again.  I'll try to write up a detailed ONI Electricity post to help show why some things work and others don't.  I wanted to do it this week, but, alas, real life problems got in the way of gaming.

[Oni Noob]

12 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Here's a tiny power plant that can handle 20kW instantaneous (i.e. one switch from 0 to full in 1 second) and 4kW average. To increase the average I would add more power plants and a couple more batteries. With only 2 batteries, it can only charge at 20kW for about 4 seconds, and then it is sustained at 4kW.

Super last question(Sorry in advance).

   - You added 5 large transformer because you we're anticipating to have a 20kW worth of consumers?
   - So if in my base I am planning to consume aroung 5kW of power, does it mean I need to have 3 large transformer after my producer so it wont get overload damage?

[nakomaru]

1 hour ago, Oni Noob said:

Super last question(Sorry in advance).

   - You added 5 large transformer because you we're anticipating to have a 20kW worth of consumers?
   - So if in my base I am planning to consume aroung 5kW of power, does it mean I need to have 3 large transformer after my producer so it wont get overload damage?

I mostly have 5 transformers because they will charge each station very quickly. Technically it can support 20kW for about 4 seconds (2x20kJ + 5x4kJ + 4kW * 4 seconds is about 80kJ of stored potential). But I can only support 4kW total simultaneous and continuous load due to 5x800Watt generators. However, rarely you will have all of your consumers activated at the same time for very long.

If you want to be sure you can support 5kW running non stop you will need a couple more generators, but more than likely in practice this will support an unspecified large number of substations that may total high power (e.g. 20kW or 40kW potential) which have 20% or 10% total uptime.

Basically once you build it you will be able to inspect how often your generators are running, and it will probably be less often than you expected. From then you can decide when you need more generators.

[Gamers Handbook]

@BLACKBERREST3 Yes, that's the kind of more advanced comps based in Excel that I like to see people coming up with.

@tofof SIMPLY EXCELLENT alternative explanation!  Thank you!

@Oni Noob The transformer is only necessary for the transformer flipper.  This is to keep the charge moving through the transformer flipper (batteries can't charge other batteries, so they'd just sit full without a transformer), so it can be an accurate representation of the charge in the system.  You need one transformer flipper per set of generators.  You'd use a normal battery flipper (so no transformer) to provide power to your consumers.

Here's a couple images from my current playthrough.  My hydrogen generators are currently getting moved so they aren't finished building yet, and my wood burners are just crammed in there, but the transformer flippers on both are working great.  I also included a picture of a flipper I'm using to power my base (shown in blue-ish purple with the main power wire in white).  I've also been using ability to run up to 1kW off of the main power wire for temporary things a ton.

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/a/52tDJXS

 

[Oni Noob]

On 10/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, nakomaru said:

TLDR: you need to charge quickly enough so your backup batteries never run out of power.

Here's what a charging cycle looks like on a battery switch. On the right side are consumers. Most of the time, the right (primary) battery is supplying the consumers (white). But when it gets below 8000J it disconnects and touches the main line (purple) with the transformers.

When this happens, the transformers (purple) rapidly charge the right battery. During that time the left (backup) battery connects to the consumers and supplies power.

If you have a lot of transformers, this process is very quick like you see above. On my end game maps it is usually one frame.

If you don't have enough transformers, multiple battery stations might demand power at the same time and they will charge slower. If it charges too slowly, the backup battery will run out of power before the primary battery recharges.

Can you post how automation works on this one.

[nakomaru]

19 minutes ago, Oni Noob said:

Can you post how automation works on this one.

Not for a day, but this should get you there.

 

[Oni Noob]

On 10/8/2019 at 9:43 AM, nakomaru said:

Because transformers are 4kW consumers on the production side, you need heavy watt or they will break. Or you can do like the OP in this thread described and use many 1kW transformers.

How come when I check the wire it says 0 watts power consumption

[BLACKBERREST3]

Just now, Oni Noob said:

Because transformers are 4kW consumers on the production side, you need heavy watt or they will break. Or you can do like the OP in this thread described and use many 1kW transformers.

I only need to use 1 for a transformer loop. example further down the post.

You need to get all generators to see all battery switches on your circuit to get this effect.

2 transformers will stabilize the charge/discharge, but I'm not sure you need 2. If you had 1 transformer for the discharge, it would still be stabilized.

@Gamers Handbook, Can I get your input on this.

[nakomaru]

Yes, sure, one 1kW transformer. For your whole base.

[BLACKBERREST3]

2 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Yes, sure, one 1kW transformer. For your whole base.

You do know that automation will tell those generators to turn on right?

Edit. Oh were you talking about the time it takes to draw from those batteries at 1kw/tick.

The more generators and switches you add, the more your battery bank and peak power output will build up to stabilize your whole base as a system.

[nakomaru]

5 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

You do know that automation will tell those generators to turn on right?

I don't know why we're talking about generators now.

In your first quote, I was indicating that you do not need to use heavy watt if you use the alternative provided by the OP. In which case you will be using many 1kW transformers to provide the necessary power for your whole base.

[BLACKBERREST3]

Just now, nakomaru said:

I don't know why we're talking about generators now.

In your first quote, I was indicating that you do not need to use heavy watt if you use the alternative provided by the OP. In which case you will be using many 1kWs to provide the necessary power for your whole base.

I may not have understood the context of what I was quoting, my b.

Starting over. I think you only need to use 1 transformer to get a similar effect to what handbook was trying to do in the op. Would this work and what are the differences is what I'm trying to figure out.

[nakomaru]

I've described above why I believe it's best practice to over spec your transformer backbone. Your substations will charge essentially instantly regardless of how many happen to flip at the same time, so your generators will be able to provide total potential wattage often far above their rating as long as the average wattage is below that. This can all be done 1kW at a time, it just takes more space.

[BLACKBERREST3]

I think I get what you mean. You're talking about peak wattage vs average wattage. I get that that having more transformers is generally beneficial to get a boost in peak wattage over sustained average wattage to maximize generator usage. I was trying to see if I could cut down on the middle man between generators and transformers to maximize sustained wattage. I think it comes down to preference at that point. Some people like to add more generators the more potential consumers they have while others like to max out power consumption for the generators they do have. I'm a mix of both. I try to use different techniques to see if I should add more generators or not. If you're talking about something else than I'm just not getting it.