klei An Open Letter to Klei

[FreyaMaluk]

55 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

Yupp. 

It's there. 

DST as Joe already said, is not uncompromising.

I think that the Togetherness alone takes the "uncompromising" part away and let's not forget about rolling back, the abundance of food and the multiple ways you can revive. Alone having some helping hands makes clear that some social aspects make the game "easier"

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I think the gist of it is that the game needs mobs attack variation and some rng elements to keep combat and survival fresh, which is probably what most of the people playing the game on a more or less regular basis can agree on. IMO this can be achieved with some optional modes + general mob revamp changes. 

we just need to give concrete feedback and well thoughtout suggestions. Showing the "uncompromising" word over and over is not gonna make the game change how it's working at the moment

i've already mentioned my concrete suggestions here:

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/111838-an-open-letter-to-klei/?do=findComment&comment=1261977

Quote

I think some OPTIONS should be available: Hardcore mode and difficulty increase overtime. These all OPTIONAL. 

For the base game in general I think some attack patterns from bosses and mobs should be reworked to add a bit of RNG. Nothing crazy but adding some variation to keep you on your feet. 

More HP and speed for bosses the more people are fighting, independent from people in the server. I think this is one point makes the game feel overly ez when playing with others. 

Some random mobs joining the hound attacks or adding more kinds of hounds to give a bit more of RNG and test the player's flexibility 

Also sanity needs to get a new system. Overtime increasing difficulty when people decide to stay insane for longer. (this was largely discussed in other thread before)

another idea is increasing weather effects or making them a bit unpredictable overtime.

as said before... some rng is needed.

[Theukon-dos]

First of all, I don't think that Rollbacks should be considered when talking about the game's difficulty. They're for when abigail introduces your base to a torch, not for when Toadstool introduces your face to his underside.

 

Second, and while it's generally a bad idea to look at the playerbase for solutions, I think I may have an idea that would simultaniosly make the game more inviting to newcomers and give leeway to make it more challangeing to old-timers

 

use the world as a tutorial.

 

or rather, have setpieces designed to teach players the basics of the game instead of them flailing around until something hits. For instance, there could be a crock pot setpiece that contains a skeleton, a crock pot, and an ice box. The crockpot would contain ingrediants that don't spoil until it's opened, but they would be partally spoiled. this way, when the player intuativly presses the cook button, they're taught 3 things. first, how crock pots work. Second, that cooking with a crock pot restores freshness, turning otherwise stale and rotten foods into a relativly fresh food. and third, that it is much more effective to make food in a crock pot than it is to eat food raw. If we wanted to go one step further, there could even be two spesific recipes that it can choose from. One to make trail mix to show that they're a good sorce of healing, an another for meatballs useing monster meat to show that monster meat can be consumed safely once cooked.

 

another example could be a setpiece to teach the player about digging and replanting.  this one could contain a few couple tufts of grass, twigs, and berry bushes, or any combonation of the two, a shovel, some planted versions of said plants, and either some rot, some manure, or a beefalo nearby to drop manure. In theory the plaer would see the dug up plants, the shovel, and go "hey, maybe I can dig those up". and then once they plant them and see the crops all withered, they may remember the fertalizer that was near that setpiece and try useing that on them.

 

now mind you, wether or not this would actually work is purely speculative, but if it does work how I think it would, then it would allow Klei to smooth out the learning curve, add more challenging content, and keep the wonder and terror of being dropped into an unfamiliar world with no one to tell you what to do.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

And in regards to the Woodie rework, other than the fact that he doesn't have a downside, I think that moveing him from lumberjack to Druid was for the best. After all, woodgatherer was already a weak niche, and he was already competing with Maxwell, who can cut down trees, dig up stumps, and pick up the wood all at once while also having the bess quarrying ability and sanity management; and Bearger, who every character has acsess to and can devistate entire forests in mere moments, stumps and all. Klei would have needed to give him some serious buffs to his woodcutting ability to keep him relevent. Probably to the point of being comical. My only real complain with the rework is that Lucy's pretty pointless now, and as such really doesn't do much with how woodie plays.

[FreyaMaluk]

15 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

First of all, I don't think that Rollbacks should be considered when talking about the game's difficulty. They're for when abigail introduces your base to a torch, not for when Toadstool introduces your face to his underside.

 

Second, and while it's generally a bad idea to look at the playerbase for solutions, I think I may have an idea that would simultaniosly make the game more inviting to newcomers and give leeway to make it more challangeing to old-timers

 

use the world as a tutorial.

 

or rather, have setpieces designed to teach players the basics of the game instead of them flailing around until something hits. For instance, there could be a crock pot setpiece that contains a skeleton, a crock pot, and an ice box. The crockpot would contain ingrediants that don't spoil until it's opened, but they would be partally spoiled. this way, when the player intuativly presses the cook button, they're taught 3 things. first, how crock pots work. Second, that cooking with a crock pot restores freshness, turning otherwise stale and rotten foods into a relativly fresh food. and third, that it is much more effective to make food in a crock pot than it is to eat food raw. If we wanted to go one step further, there could even be two spesific recipes that it can choose from. One to make trail mix to show that they're a good sorce of healing, an another for meatballs useing monster meat to show that monster meat can be consumed safely once cooked.

 

another example could be a setpiece to teach the player about digging and replanting.  this one could contain a few couple tufts of grass, twigs, and berry bushes, or any combonation of the two, a shovel, some planted versions of said plants, and either some rot, some manure, or a beefalo nearby to drop manure. In theory the plaer would see the dug up plants, the shovel, and go "hey, maybe I can dig those up". and then once they plant them and see the crops all withered, they may remember the fertalizer that was near that setpiece and try useing that on them.

 

now mind you, wether or not this would actually work is purely speculative, but if it does work how I think it would, then it would allow Klei to smooth out the learning curve, add more challenging content, and keep the wonder and terror of being dropped into an unfamiliar world with no one to tell you what to do.

rollbacks DO make the game easier.... in single player you have no other choice than rolling with the punches

I don't think that set pieces are the best option to somehow replacing learning the game. as per definition set pieces are very rare and you cannot guarantee spawning location unless that is included in the code. maybe if they are very close to the portal, but even then you cannot guarantee it's gonna be there for all newcomers... Most of the time I think "noobs" might take the resources and they won't understand anyways what to do with all the things in the first place. DST doesn't have a tutorial and I hope the game stays that way. Some people enjoy learning step by step and discovering the world, for the rest there is always wiki or youtube. A sort of in-game tutorial for beginners is something I see not happening anytime soon.

[minespatch]

5 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

though at the very least, it seems that they're remembering there spooky roots with the horror hounds and moonrock pengulls.

They even toned them down color wise because the players were scared by them.

[Theukon-dos]

5 minutes ago, minespatch said:

They even toned them down color wise because the players were scared by them.

Panzies

[Butt Pillow]

8 minutes ago, minespatch said:

They even toned them down color wise because the players were scared by them.

This was the biggest mistake. I came here to pee my pants when Deerclops breathes in the darkness while I only have a fishing rod. Give me the scary!

[Canis]

2 minutes ago, Butt Pillow said:

This was the biggest mistake. I came here to pee my pants when Deerclops breathes in the darkness while I only have a fishing rod. Give me the scary!

Imagine using a fishing rod

/s

[Theukon-dos]

1 minute ago, Canis said:

Imagine using a fishing rod

/s

*cough* Moqueca *cough*

[Canis]

Just now, Theukon-dos said:

*cough* Moqueca *cough*

*sweating* uh...

Imagine using a fishing rod... in Winter.

[Theukon-dos]

Just now, Canis said:

*sweating* uh...

Imagine using a fishing rod... in Winter.

that's more like it.

 

anyways, any response to my take on the Woodie rework?

[maradyne]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

anyways, any response to my take on the Woodie rework?

I think the part that bothered me most about it was that the repairs/longstanding community suggestions like water movement came to the rework after the fact, in a firestorm resulting from the release, rather than in internal review or some limited testing.
By itself? I mean, hey, people make mistakes, no biggie fam.
But waiting things out in silence and then ripping off the bandaid in response to outrage has become a pattern. Woodie's 'rework rework'. Willow's fire immunity. Winona's hunger drain over-tuning. The initial, really obvious Gorge score inflating method at release. Warbucks wait don't kill me

I love that Klei has begun working on some of the things that people have been asking for for a long time. I remember when the desire for character reworks was some far off dream that would pop up on the forums once a month since the Beta. But...
It seems like all the major, all-at-once releases/changes like that have had the same sort of problem.

On the opposing end...
The first run of the Forge had an extensive beta, and I still consider that to be some of the most fun I've had in this game.
ONI? Nice long beta, visibly listened to community feedback, wrapped up with a bunch of patching, and even included options to adjust the game for different skill levels. Beautiful.
Heck, DST beta. Meteor fields helped so much by themself, and addressed a major flaw in the base game becoming multiplayer.
Klei does listen sometimes before hits the fan, those times are visible, and they feel great.
...but, clearly, not every community idea is well thought out.

 

So, I'm half and half here.
On the one hand, you don't want the community dictating everything. It'd be a mess.
On the other hand, any change to central mechanics like characters will be heavily felt by the now-time-invested community...and we already have messes.

Another problem with the character updates is that people like me exist, who really like a character for any number of reasons. Changing that character to something completely different can feel like having that character we've grown attached to stolen from us.
League of Legends suffered from this problem a few times in the past; the developers had a completely different idea of what some characters should be, from the state that they were actually released in which people in the community loved. Devs went forward anyway, destroyed the old characters and gave new characters their names...and the new characters wearing the old names were good. But, surprise surprise, people weren't happy. Because the old characters weren't updated; they were changed so significantly that it was, in effect, something new.
That pattern will never waver. People don't like losing what they love.

 

But, betas have done wonders for these games in the past. I agree that in some form, people from the community should start being brought in to test these updates before release. Bring in people familiar with the characters/concepts, and people who aren't. See how they feel about the changes every step of the way, so you don't feel like you're wasting time by doing a bunch of big changes and then someone telling you it's all crap; I know how that feels, you want to make the stuff you've already put time into work.
Take feedback, take suggestions, consider them. Find a balance between making things fun for less familiar players, while still keeping to the old themes that you know other players like and will continue to like.

I'm not so concerned about leaks, personally. Make it abundantly clear what you're working on ahead of time, that nothing is final until release, and development contains a lot of fiddling around. No surprises that can't be handled.

 

TL;DR

Overall, the Woodie update was good. Some questionable decisions? Sure. But in general the changes were for the better.
I think the final form of the update reached a balanced point where new players can enjoy the shenanigans, and old Woodie players can be satisfied.
The process surrounding it was bad, and leaves a bad taste. It's been this way for a while now. It could use improvement.
Needs more betas or other form of community testing.

[fluffytail]

I never posted here before, but I've had DS and DST for years now. I agree with how easy the game is while simultaneously not recognizing it as a problem, The "hardcode mode" is fine on paper, if someone dislikes the concept, they can choose not to enable said option.

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

So, without further dilly dally, let's go through objective, un-biased, and common worries regarding Klei, and their methods of working on Don't Starve Together.

However, this "letter" is poorly introduced.

The issue here starts with "[...] lets go through objective [...].

The definition of objective (as in objectivity) is a philosophical concept of being true independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions, or imagination. With that being said, this is far from what I could read.

I also believe that you didn't survey this through a respectable amount of DST players to stablish some major points as common worries. My reasoning? There's an overwhelming amount of people calling you out for self-proclaiming as a "community speaker" of some sort, insisting you to not speak for them as those ideas aren't wanted or liked. If this was truly objective, these viewpoints would be [mostly] automatically accepted.

 

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

DST as a whole has become much easier with the addition to new characters

The concept of "easy" is subjective due to this statement being unverifiable by other people outside your specific mindset. What you may see as easy, may be hard for others. If you wanted to demonstrate how DST became objectively easier, you would want to present something that is founded on objective truths. For example, a triangle has 3 angles, 1+1=2, mammals drink milk etc...

A practical approach would be to create a flowchart of... Let's say DST during the first month, and DST within this last month, compiling fighting difficulty, survivability and so on... On a big "Before vs. After" sequence of evidence that would show people how the game became easier rather than trying to persuade them with your own words.

Using wesel-y language such as:

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

 Klei has seemingly made

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

with a few notable exceptions

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

the game becomes extremely autonomous, repetitive, easy, and worst of all, boring

It goes without saying, that you sprinkle a bit of your own bias and emotion through [almost] every sentence you write out.

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

-Insanity is laughably easy,

It reaches a point where it's just unfair.

 

Regarding the "Veteran Closed Beta", it has several questions that lead to flaws like: who are the veterans? You generally speak of the term veteran when reaching out to a player who's particularly skilled, this skill justifying most of his opinions regarding a niche subject.

It's time consuming to quantify the amount of "skill" someone has. Especially everyone asking for a beta test code.

Will these keys be given to anyone who self-proclaims on the forums? Because that's a joke. Everyone can automatically assume, by either inflated ego or unfair judgement, that "I" am a veteran <insert smiley face here>.

Will it be given to a small group of veterans who acknowledge each other and spend a lot of time stroking self-wisdom? Because you aren't giving beta entries to veterans now, you're just catering to whoever screams the loudest in the community with information. With the conclusion of: being vocal doesn't mean being right.

Will Klei set out some Veteran Olympics and several tests to actually see who's a veteran worth beta-testing? What about the people who are, practically, invisible in the community and have had this game for years and accumulated, probably more, experience than any of us ever had?

Will this be done by purchase date? What if I had a beta code, played the game for 25 hours and never bothered to touch it again? Is this the best way to evaluate a veteran? This would sabotage feedback and ruin the entire beta.

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

(...) Veterans (...) chosen by Klei

I would certainly hope that Klei would pick these testers and not the Fairy Godmother. I didn't see the reason to put this out.

On 17/09/2019 at 9:13 PM, Canis said:

Veterans have a clear vision on what "balanced" means in terms of Don't Starve Together, and are above the "Skill Level Plateau", meaning that they are easily able to grasp new mechanics, and apply them to normal gameplay, which is a good trait to have in terms of playtesters.

This is a big, BIG statement. A veteran could be under a burned-out effect, automatically dislike everything the beta has to offer, provide an excessive amount of negative feedback that was far from "clear" and mostly just an emotional blur - just an example of how a Veteran isn't a fountain of light, justice and incorruptible truth.

On 17/09/2019 at 11:10 PM, Mr.Mulk said:

To the second point I think it isn't correct throughout this post to assume that "veterans" are a monolithic entity, and seems to entirely ignore the question of how do we define a "veteran" for starters. And the final issue with this is that you speak as a spokesperson for them, which is not accurate. When it comes to good discussion and debate etiquette it is incredibly important to recognize that you can only state you represent a group that you know shares the same opinion on a subject as you.

Like mentioned previously.

 

To cover most things:

On 17/09/2019 at 11:10 PM, Mr.Mulk said:

Anyways, from my understanding of reading this the main points are:

• Newcomer bias, the game is too easy and appears to be focused on attracting newer players more than satisfying "veteran" players
• The game has poor balancing, with the reworks showing some issues with Klei's process
• The game is too easy, part 2 featuring possible solutions

This is 99% of what I feel about the "letter". It appeals to a lot of emotion, it uses sketchy language and (without any voice projecting these words) it sounds evil to an extent. By claiming insanity as "laughably" easy [one example out of several terms you use], you're trying to shame, corner or degrade people who struggle with sanity. This doesn't sound like "community speaker"-material to me.

[fimmatek]

I think it's time to share my opinion as well. First, from what I read in this whole... discussion, TL,DR:

On 17.9.2019 at 10:20 PM, SplOrange said:

i think the game is fine at the moment

On 18.9.2019 at 1:49 AM, Sketched_Philo said:

I think the game is in big need of drastic change at the moment

Like, half seriously, the Forums are more "uncompromising wilderness" than DS/T...

 

So, my opinion is that doesn't need a harder/hardcore/newgame+ version. It could be fun and nice to have, because honestly, what new content wouldn't be fun?  But in the long-term I don't think it would solve the problem that DST is too easy (which imo isn't actually a problem), it would just add a bit to the learning curve. I can't think of any sensible addition that veterans wouldn't get used to, it'd be just a matter of time. (I wasn't here back when sanity was added to DS, but I imagine that any new hard mechanic would be similar to that: true difficulty until you learn how to counter it and use it to your advantage.) And let's be honest, the loyal veteran players who (still) play regularly would be the first ones to "beat" the hard mode and learn how to survive and thrive in it. 

I heard many players complaining that "you're never in real danger anymore if you know what you do" (Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”). And I think this is fine and DST is supposed to be "beaten" once you can survive forever. Otherways, imagine some new mechanic, any kind of, which can surprise and kill even the most experienced players too without letting you to recover from it. But this would mean that no matter how good you're at the game, your world and all your progress could be lost at any unlucky moment. Rip megabases. Or, f this weren't the case and you could actually learn how to avoid this danger, well - that would mean that you do can beat the game again and you're not at risk anymore (the exact same situation from where we started, but after the hard mode). 

So again, I'm not against a hard mode (in fact, I'm all for updates and new stuff), but it's not what DST needs the most, in my opinion.

[Edit: just to clarify, I'm basically-mostly pleased with the current developement of DST and I disagree with OP in most parts, especially about a closed beta with content that should be kept in secret. Also I don't think I (or most DST players) have enough knowledge and insight about the devs and their plans about the game to judge their actions, they're not a fan-service. (If they were just doing what players want and ignoring their own vision about DST, the game would since long have achivements, for example.) They have their own goals which we just might not know or understand, or we just don't agree with. I have my wishes about DST that I share(d) in these Forums and I'll be happy if Klei adds them, but I won't get angry on them if my ideas turn out to be different from Theirs.]

21 hours ago, -Variant said:

They haven't strayed too far, but when I saw the Moon creatures I done laid an egg at that moment.
I want them to continue with that, I love where they're going with the Horror mobs and the Salt pillars, all that stuff is what I love and miss.

While I loved some more spooky stuff in the game, honestly, for long-term players it wouldn't really change the game, we would get used to every new scary stuff sooner or later. So I don't really miss spookiness from DST. At the beginning, as a newcomer, I was afraid of a lot of things, I avoided totally normal trees (I was convinced that they would kill me instantly) and I hated spiders, today I'm like "oh, another spider, two hits, done". The only thing that actually still can spook me is the stagehand in the night; I guess because it happens quite rarely so I don't expect it. But other things, like the shadow creatures, different sounds, monsters don't scare me at all.

 

22 hours ago, -Variant said:

Make some forced content that shows up later on in the game, but don't make it annoying, it needs to be hard and fun.
Looking at you, Antlion 40 day sinkhole waiting time.

What I like in the sinkholes is that they actually matter and you can't correct your mistakes that easily and so this incites players to avoid them ruining your base. There are so many mistakes that you can just shrug off, even "disasterour" ones, for example if Deerclops destroys your chest area, you just ask your fellow Woodie to get a few logs and rebuild it in a day, done. Or if you die, you just use your amulet (or a friend's heart) and you're alive again. Sinkholes, however, cannot be repaired manually and so they actually hinder you in a meaningful way if you let Antlion destroy your base.

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, fimmatek said:

Spooky Spok

Alright, yeah, this is something I was talking about with some friends yesterday, while YES, we would adjust to them, I still find it nice to have them around.

It's like, it's spooky at first, you can get used to it, but I like having something to think about, too. I can look at a Spider and be like, "oh, big bug, spooky." and then be over it, but then I can look at something like Webber or the new RoT Salt pillars and say "That is/was another human" and whatnot.

All in all, not required, but still nice to play with and dig around with, I see it was a little plus, I guess!

1 hour ago, fimmatek said:

Sink Sunk

What you said there perfectly describes what I'd like to see more of from the game.
I just pointed out the Sinkholes because she's a brat! I can't complain though, it is a great example. Stuff like that is what I wish to see more of, coming from Klei in the future.

[Mike23Ua]

The thing I don’t understand is that the game can be as easy or as hard as you personally want it to be.. before you start a new world there are a TON of options you can toggle on or off to effect your game, from Disabling the Coop Big Bosses like Bearger & Dragonfly, to making the game world always night time with no day EVER. the customization is there.. “your world, your rules” however I wish we had a (more) toggle for most the items in the game... this would really effect those hardcore gamers when more then one Bearger can start wrecking their base at once.. 

And for the truly Hardcore- Disable all player passive stats and character traits, pretty much turning EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME INTO WES. This would allow us to pick our hero based purely off their appearance alone.. 

And would open up a huge doorway for Klei to Rework WES with his Character refresh without the forums being set completely on fire. Right?

[Whisperlisc]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 “your world your rules"

Yeah if someone want to make game experience hardcore just set up very few resources, lots of disease, hounds waves,tree guards, meteor rains, spiders, frogs and frog rains(this one's the worst), if this is not enough just set the world to endless darkness with long winter and summer and play as Wes also play with a challenge (no armor, you must eat every time something different and you are not allowed to use monster meat and ice for cooking).Here is that hard enough?

[minespatch]

 

[Mario384]

11 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The thing I don’t understand is that the game can be as easy or as hard as you personally want it to be.. before you start a new world there are a TON of options you can toggle on or off to effect your game, from Disabling the Coop Big Bosses like Bearger & Dragonfly, to making the game world always night time with no day EVER. the customization is there.. “your world, your rules” however I wish we had a (more) toggle for most the items in the game... this would really effect those hardcore gamers when more then one Bearger can start wrecking their base at once.. 

And for the truly Hardcore- Disable all player passive stats and character traits, pretty much turning EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME INTO WES. This would allow us to pick our hero based purely off their appearance alone.. 

And would open up a huge doorway for Klei to Rework WES with his Character refresh without the forums being set completely on fire. Right?

You don't take into consideration that usually upping most the toggles makes things not spawn at all or comically often, usually wrecking most of the mechanics the game has to offer.

[maradyne]

5 hours ago, Mario384 said:

You don't take into consideration that usually upping most the toggles makes things not spawn at all or comically often, usually wrecking most of the mechanics the game has to offer.

That, and...the sliders act pretty weird.
Logically, upping the setting one stage for something like tumbleweeds or flowers should just cause more to spawn in their pre-existing areas, right? N o p e. Your world is now tumble everywhere.

[Mike23Ua]

Dudes.. your totally missing the point aren’t you? I said that there are toggle options in the game to tailor your worlds- but I never once said they were absolutely perfect.  

Its nothing that a few tweaks to the game couldn’t fix, and as I’ve stated before I’d like toggle options for everything from “none at all” to “much more..”

just imagine a “more, and Much more” toggle for things like Lightning Strikes, Fire Hound attacks, Meteor Showers, the “more” toggle could even expand to the bosses like Bearger and Dearclops, instead of having only one spawn.. two or three can be attempting to wreck your base at once.  And a “almost none” so they have to search all over the map just to find one gold ore rock to build a science machine with.

The whole idea was to give those players who want a totally uncompromising & brutal game the options to make it that way.

while at the same exact time- giving players who do not at all desire spending 8 hours looking for a gold ore rock, the option to have more of them spawn in their world.

catering to both casual newcomer players who just want to play with friends and learn together, to the hardcore players who have seen everything, mastered everything and done everything there is to do.

[RogueGamer12]

Just commenting to make it easier to keep track of the discussion.

[Well-met]

This thread is a mistake.

don't lecture devs when they've literally listened and fixed every single thing people hated about new willow and new woodie

[Crimson Chin]

12 minutes ago, Well-met said:

This thread is a mistake.

don't lecture devs when they've literally listened and fixed every single thing people hated about new willow and new woodie

Wow, what a pointless comment! This thread is full of valuable criticism and opinions from all kinds of players. Something like this could be extremely valuable to the devs as it shows them what different kind of players want to see. And no, they didn't fix  EVERY single person's issues with the Willow and Woodie rework, not even close, that is impossible.

Doubt you even read the thread, but if you go just one page back you can see JoeW himself suggested that you should respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t think anything I’ve said has ever been lecturing the devs, these guys work their asses off to provide us the players with great content. It’s not like I just showed up on here one morning and decided to yell at Everyone that-THIS SUCKS YOU SHOULD ALL BE FIRED! CHANGE IT CHANGE IT NOW!! 

Although if anything needs changing it is Wes, lol yeah I’m going there- Wes was designed as the “hard” character for single player players, but rather it was intentional or unintentional I find that WORMWOOD is a harder character to play then Wes- pretty much Wes is just disabled Audio cues and no cool abilities. (Which as I’ve said numerous times could probably be added as a feature that lets players pick to play as anyone but without audio cues, unique abilities etc..)

it may be an unpopular opinion here on these forums but I want Wes to be Reworked to have new abilities and to be in general just as fun to play as the rest of the cast without being boring.

[-Variant]

7 hours ago, Well-met said:

This thread is a mistake.

Like, not trying to keep igniting fires, but comments like these are hostile when you can visibly see people trying to help out.

Seems tasteless.