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An Open Letter to Klei


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So after crying myself to sleep and waking up again /s I feel the intense need to clarify a few things.

-I use third person and talk as if im "the voice of the community" because, again, this was proofread and backed by several people, not just me. Before posting this, I was confident that I hit it straight on the nail because I had nothing but mostly thumbs up from everyone I reached out to. Perhaps It was a massive stroke of luck that everyone shared the same opinion.

-the phrase "Klei can seek after veterans that main that character, since their thoughts are arguably more important than anyone else's" isn't egotistical. If you're reading it in the context that I'm a Woodie main, and I just got done talking about Woodie, sure it would, but that's not it. The phrase was included because people that main, say, Wendy for example, should have their voices heard over people that main someone else, in relations to a Wendy rework discussion. They know the character inside and out, after all.

-The term "veteran" was used a lot. This was basically used as a placeholder name for "someone that has years worth of experience in the game and know it inside and out." When I talk about veterans wanting something, of course I don't mean every veteran under the sun.

-It's painfully apparent that this gave off a tone that 100% of people agree with me, or would agree with me. This wasn't the intention. The reason to this was because I didn't exactly leave this open-ended for discussion.

 

That being said, my opinions and beliefs have stayed the same.

 

3 minutes ago, -Variant said:

Good points, weird wording. 

Not gonna lie I'm seeing a 50/50 here, both sides are making good points, the wording is off, but a few people here seem particularly hostile.

This all seems messy.
:{

There are some people here that feel more hostile than they should be. Especially since some post(s) can be boiled down to "pack your stuff and leave if you're bored of the game"


I'm not naming names, but said posts are easy to find.

 

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36 minutes ago, Canis said:

So after crying myself to sleep and waking up again /s I feel the intense need to clarify a few things.

-I use third person and talk as if im "the voice of the community" because, again, this was proofread and backed by several people, not just me. Before posting this, I was confident that I hit it straight on the nail because I had nothing but mostly thumbs up from everyone I reached out to. Perhaps It was a massive stroke of luck that everyone shared the same opinion.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't hold your breath just because there's a majority against your viewpoint. Even if you talked to people who were on boat with your idea and seemed to agree with you, there'll be people who just don't agree or don't see it the way you do, and that's all good. I wouldn't go so far as if to speak for everyone, but you clearly didn't mean that, so yea.

36 minutes ago, Canis said:

-the phrase "Klei can seek after veterans that main that character, since their thoughts are arguably more important than anyone else's" isn't egotistical. If you're reading it in the context that I'm a Woodie main, and I just got done talking about Woodie, sure it would, but that's not it. The phrase was included because people that main, say, Wendy for example, should have their voices heard over people that main someone else, in relations to a Wendy rework discussion. They know the character inside and out, after all.

While I do think that yes, veterans are more familiar with the intricate players and the player experience once the player's used to the game, I'd argue newcomers' thoughts are valuable too, though not for the same reason. A newcomer can give you insight on whether your game is intuitive, the first things that draw the players' attention, and what they find fun. I would've worded it as "veterans who main the character are more familiar with the strategies and efficiency characteristic of an experienced player, so they likely can provide more insightful input." Being specific in your wording, you can prevent people from reading things like "elitism" and "egotistical" into your post. I'd rather not attribute malice when it was likely just clumsy wording. Your post is so extensive that I wouldn't be surprised some things weren't proofread as much.

36 minutes ago, Canis said:

There are some people here that feel more hostile than they should be. Especially since some post(s) can be boiled down to "pack your stuff and leave if you're bored of the game"

I'm not naming names, but said posts are easy to find.

 

(time to bring up examples of what you're talking about)

"hey if you're unhappy with this food you can just eat something else...not that it makes my dish any better. "

"look, im happy with how the game is right now, why don't you leave?" . This ignores how if the game actually changed to support the opposing view, they'd likely not leave, but speak here on the forums on how it was a bad idea, etc, etc.

As a last note to everyone else, swinging a mallet of 3k hours then claiming you're a veteran player isn't productive. For all I care, you could've spent those hours idling or even be worse than players with significantly less hours. You could have NO hours and have watched enough video and stream content to be very familiar with how the game works. Goodness. Some people can enjoy a badly designed game for thousands of hours, some can't. We aren't invalidating anybody's fun for criticizing the game itself.

Criticizing game design =/= criticizing your enjoyment and experience of said game

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10 minutes ago, Canis said:

"Klei can seek after veterans that main that character, since their thoughts are arguably more important than anyone else's" isn't egotistical

You see now while it maybe less douchey it's still a bit egotystical to think that veterans that main a certain character have the best insight. I never play wolfgang but from a outsider looking in perspective, I can still point out flaws and ways to fix him that might deviate from someone who plays him all the time. It's good you clarified but it still seems egotistical to assume that we also can't give feedback, or the selected testing group isn't biased.

14 minutes ago, Canis said:

Before posting this, I was confident that I hit it straight on the nail because I had nothing but mostly thumbs up from everyone I reached out to. Perhaps It was a massive stroke of luck that everyone shared the same opinion.

Maybe the people you spoke with could be biased because of their time playing? It would have been better if you also got the opinions of non veterans to shows that it isn't a plateau of skill thing.

16 minutes ago, Canis said:

-The term "veteran" was used a lot. This was basically used as a placeholder name for "someone that has years worth of experience in the game and know it inside and out." When I talk about veterans wanting something, of course I don't mean every veteran under the sun

Then why did you write it like it was. We would be less of a uproar if you made it out like a group of individuals have this opinion and not literally everybody with beteran qualities.

21 minutes ago, -Variant said:

but a few people here seem particularly hostile

Sorry if my essay went off a hostile but thats the way I saw fit to go about this. Give points of contention and explain my opinion on them, and I didn't mean to write with malice but I woll apologoze if you felt I was hostile. I think the reason why some may have gotten hostile is because the way you wrote it made it seem like you and your group to be the "correct" ones and that its what we all think. Again Im sorry if I came off malicious.

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I think DST is fine...the character rework is great imo. I never touched Woodie before but now I think "Huh, this isnt actually so bad." I also dont think the new Characters are OP....

Wiona: Advantage: Building stuff. Disadvantage: Building stuff makes hungry

Wortox: Advantage: Eating souls of the innocent. Disadvantage: Eating Souls of the innocent.

Wormwood: Advantage: Is a plant. Disadvantage: Is a plant.

Warly: Advantage: Cooks good Disadvantage: Only wants cooked stuff (Rip Jerky and blue shrooms)

Also...DST is not easy. Just play with a noob once, and you will see them hardly survive past day 10. Sur the new stuff is bite sized, but its better than nothing,

 

EDIT: 

To be completely fair, Wortox is a bit OP when playing with friends. But since I dont have friends /s I forgot to add that.

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4 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

. I think the reason why some may have gotten hostile is because the way you wrote it made it seem like you and your group to be the "correct" ones and that its what we all think. Again Im sorry if I came off malicious.

To be absolutely honest, I skimmed really quickly through your entire post and this last sentence caught my attention. Anybody who argues for a viewpoint thinks that they're correct.

This is not unique to the original poster, or to me, or to anybody.

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2 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Hey everybody. Please keep it constructive, polite and without personal attacks. Thanks. 

 

I just want to re-post this.

Quote

Klei is most likely reading this, as they do indeed lurk the forums. I encourage them to reply to this, whether it's assuring that they care, saying that we're wrong about a few points, or anything really.

Can we at least get some form of feedback, as this involves Klei as a company?

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37 minutes ago, superfast said:

It is ridiculous that you can claim to be a veteran

Newcomers will learn skills from veterans. Not only because veterans had longer playing time, but also that veterans are friendly and enthusiastic with newcomers when they need help in game.

You can criticize those people who claim to be a veteran. But newcomers Do need help while they die when they said It's so dark.Something bit me. You can't judge people who asked questions about game.

Veteran doesn't mean that player is a leader or an elite in community. They always contribute to the game by sharing their experience  and achievement.

Destroying a character could do a huge amount of damage to Veterans. That is why they stand up and fight for their own interests.

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2 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Hours are not an indication of a player's skill level. I know people with 2000+ hours who require assistance from mods in order to survive a full year

I felt this

 

also nice post, i enjoyed reading it and it summed up this thread pretty well!

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Dang, Sunset Skye always dropping the hard facts. I appreciate all the thought in this post, but I find myself not enthusiastically supportive of much speaking as a... 'veteran' with a couple thousand hours. A lot of the suggestions are really tiny micro concerns that I don't really care for when I'm actually playing the game.

I don't like the idea of a hard mode. There's already map generation changes to make things marginally more difficult. I find a lot of fun in challenging myself with difficult goals to reach in specific time frames, and that really keeps me going in terms of challenge.

The way the betas work now is best because it's very democratic - you just opt in and you can play it. Limiting it to whoever Klei arbitrarily deems a 'veteran' would annoy me so much.

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4 hours ago, Canis said:

...
 People are starting to question whether Klei themselves actively play their own game.

...

So I'm not the only one wondering this... I never said anything, but I have started to wonder recently. And honestly it's not because of the reworks but because of the dev live streams. I have watched a couple of the dev live streams where two developers talk about some of the latest DST changes. There's been a number of times where they've done things that make me wonder if they actually play the game much. There has been a few times where they don't know console commands or can't remember facts about the game (things you would know if you played even semi-regularely). Maybe I'm being too critical. I understanding live-streaming and trying to explain things is different than just playing the game. I also understand DST is a pretty robust game and it's impossible to remember everything. I also understand that DST is their job and not necessarily their hobby like it is for us so they might not spend their extra time playing it much. But those types of things have happened enough times during livestreams to make me wonder if they play it beyond basic testing.

All that said I love this game, love Klei as a company, have loved most of the reworks and new characters, and am excited for what comes next in RoT.

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1 minute ago, Bird Up said:

Dang, Sunset Skye always dropping the hard facts. I appreciate all the thought in this post, but I find myself not enthusiastically supportive of much speaking as a... 'veteran' with a couple thousand hours. A lot of the suggestions are really tiny micro concerns that I don't really care for when I'm actually playing the game.

Well one, I would have been able to take Sunset's post much more seriously if they actually showed the least bit of respect to Canis.

Anyways, I wouldn't call the lack of a progression system and the game losing all of its replayability after a few playthroughs... micro concerns. These are core design flaws that severely limit the game.

 

2 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

I don't like the idea of a hard mode. There's already map generation changes to make things marginally more difficult. I find a lot of fun in challenging myself with difficult goals to reach in specific time frames, and that really keeps me going in terms of challenge. 

These are all examples of crippling yourself in an attempt to make the game just a little engaging, something you shouldn't really have to do. World gen options don't solve these problems at all. Increasing season length... eternal darkness.... more enemies... it serves as a way to make the game much more laggy and uncomfortable through vague options, rather than challenging. None of the listed threats are challenging because, as pointed out, DST relies entirely on memory, and since we know how to deal with all the seasons and darkness.... this solves nothing at all.

I also can't really see why an optional hardmode, or progression system that was encouraged by rewarding/engaging gameplay, but not forced would be a bad idea.

 

7 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

The way the betas work now is best because it's very democratic - you just opt in and you can play it. Limiting it to whoever Klei arbitrarily deems a 'veteran' would annoy me so much.

While I don't think limiting beta to veterans only is the best option, it would definitely be nice if Klei actually communicated with us more. There is almost no time for feedback and it never feels like we are actually being listened to. There wasn't even any comments made about the Woodie rework or why it was released in the state it was...

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2 hours ago, jantonio said:

Dst does not need to be this epic hardcore game, I feel the game is a hangout with friends and learn and enjoy whats there.

Back when I first started I couldn't wait to git gud at the game so I could finally start playing the game. I've always thought the "difficult" part is learning the game, but I don't think that's necessarily "playing" the game yet. 

As far as I'm concerned, the "end game" is where the game actually begins. Creating a personalized world that offers a unique experience to those who join is what the game is about to me. 

Don't Starve is the unforgiving survival game. Don't Starve Together has definitely evolved into something different than that, and I think that's okay.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

Back when I first started I couldn't wait to git gud at the game so I could finally start playing the game. I've always thought the "difficult" part is learning the game, but I don't think that's necessarily "playing" the game yet. 

As far as I'm concerned, the "end game" is where the game actually begins. Creating a personalized world that offers a unique experience to those who join is what the game is about to me. 

Don't Starve is the unforgiving survival game. Don't Starve Together has definitely evolved into something different than that, and I think that's okay.

 

 

I feel like this also plays a part into it. Don't Starve is an entirely different beast from Don't Starve Together and I think i'm largely okay with that. It very much reminds me of TF2 in a way, in that regard. Very social experience.

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1 hour ago, Butt Pillow said:

Very social experience.

I absolutely found this myself. One of my favourite parts of playing DST is talking and just having a good time surviving mediocrely in a public server. I have close to 800 hours and honestly I'm not really all that good at the game, but I don't feel like I need to be particularly to have a good time. DST started as a multiplayer version of single-player with little real difference, but I will agree with others that it has become a different beast entirely as it has continued, and I for one appreciate the differences between the two.

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as much as I can agree with this, downsides for a character are usually threatening for newer players, but rather irrelevant for veterans. In my opinion, hard mode could have a more completely different balance rather than making the game too hard for newer players that somewhat enjoy the balance of current dst, what i'm actually saying is besides the different revive system, the characters and mobs could be reworked.

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Passing by just to mention that I support @Canis's basic ideas here; we do exist, we just tend not to be vocal...for good reason.
Well, on that note...

I don't tend to voice my opinions too often these days for a couple of reasons. Even mentioning the first always leads to the second, so I won't mention the first reason. The second is the level of..."passion" within this community. Reflective of the world at large as of late; more concerned with demeaning and defeating opposition rather than fixing problems.
I fully realize that there's no scenario in which every player can be happy at once.
I just don't see why talking about possible improvements has to lead to this. It's like people have wholly forgotten that compromise is a possibility.

...the situation leads me, and apparently others from some of the replies above and contents of some of Canis's recent profile posts, to just stay quiet and let someone else fight for us, because the angry back and forth these discussions drag us into are just tiring.

 

I only even logged in to write this because watching the mob mentality run free was...offputting.
It isn't necessary, and it helps noone.

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Something that I've noticed everytime a thread like this pops up is that this community just loves to jump into conclusion. 

For example lately I made a thread meant to spark the discussion on the subject of if dst needs a progression system. In that thread I said that the progression system wouldn't change the early game as to not make it harder for newcomers. I also mentioned how the progression system would be the perfect compromise between "Klei making dst for begginers" and "Klei making game for veterans". In the replies however I've seen things like "Don't make the game harder cuz it'll discourage new players" or "Something, something Klei needs to find a balance between bias towards newcomers and veterans".

This has shown me that there are people in this community that reply to threads without actually reading them and understanding them.

Then there's the "Shut up Veteran" mentality. Basically if you're a veteran you have absolutely no right to talk about the game, esspecialy it's difficulty and if you have a problem then leave. That's toxic. As it has been said many times before there are ways for Klei to add more forced content without discouraging new players. Cuz like seriously some people out there are talking about newbies as if they're actually the veterans.- "No don't add this thing cuz newbies will hate it"  -"Uhh but if they manage to get to it I think it's safe to say that they understand the basics"

And then there's the mob mentality. If someone agrees with Canis but then sees that they're the minorities then they probably won't post their approval or even change their opinion to seem "right". 

If someone gives feedback then that means they have a reason to and you should be respectful towards their opinion

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29 minutes ago, maradyne said:

snip

 

7 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

snop

 

This was a breath of fresh air. I spent a week compiling ideas from people and making sure that I got all the ideas down, and having it blow up in your face is self-esteem-shattering.

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9 hours ago, Canis said:

Sometimes I (and other people on the forums) feel like they're not being heard in terms of initial character perks for these reworks. Yes, if it's small enough (or we create enough drama) Klei will most likely add it, but we shouldn't NEED to set the forums on fire just to have something added.

If I’m being honest, I’d actually consider the Woodie update to be one of the higher points in Klei responding to feedback. 

It only took them a day to change things. Once everything settled, and it was clear people wanted things to change, they got right on it. Bish bash bosh. A day. 

I think the forum setting on fire is mainly a problem on our end. 

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Ahh, I don't understand how everyone has the social energy to post such detailed and long posts for people to see and react to. I can hardly hold a short conversation without getting tired.

Anyways, I agree for the most part with the exception of the "veteran beta". It seems a tad bit redundant to specifically reduce the amount of feedback that is given at a time. Just because a person is a veteran at a game doesn't necessarily make them better at determining what is fun. While balance is a good thing to have in a game I think the prime objective in developing a game is that it should be fun. All the new reworks/characters all appear to reflect the fun>balance idea and considering DST is not a competitive game there isn't much reason to balance it perfectly and have everyone be necessarily difficult to play.

Also, I think people are hinging too much on how the post was written. It's not important to the point and doesn't need to be discussed as much as it has in my opinion.

Alright i'm going back in my hole now. Cheers everyone.

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