[Discussion] On Wickerbottom reworks

[DarkPulse91]

Now, im one that is against "nerfing" a character just because they are good. And they are specifically Reworking all the characters. And what i am hoping for is that they are not nerfed. Rather, they are given new abilities and having some taken away. Give them a sidegrade if anything, change them. Dont just say "make all books 1 time use" and call it good. No one truly wants that. Imagine if the hype for the "wickerbottom rework" is coming, and the patch notes come out and its just:

• Wicker's books are now 1 time use
• thats it

That wouldnt be interesting, and a lot of people would be angrier than with the woodie refresh.

Now, while I dont have any ideas for what can be brought to the table. One suggestion i could have is that she can create books that characters can simply "read". Where they will sit down and start reading the book. This would work like a bedroll. but the difference is that it doesnt take as much hunger, and restores more sanity than health. these books could be a one time use or 3 time use. And it could be read only during the day when you have light. One thing ive noticed is that some characters or new addictions are just "variants" or "budget" versions of  existing things (example: trusty tape for the sewing kit)
This would add a new way for characters to get sanity without using up tents. But also limiting its use.
It could also be crafted using papyrus and pig skin (leather bound book)

[Datanon]

9 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

My initial suggestion would be to disable Wickerbottom's ability to read books once she is at 60 sanity or less. Being able to spam reading books while mentally unstable or insane doesn't make sense

i'd say only being able to cast the spells while insane makes more sense, as magic seems to be something that most sane people don't do in this universe

anyway, i think flat out receiving more damage would make sense for an old woman like her, but i certainly think she needs some more interactivity other than being a book crafting bot, specially when you look at the new additions and changes to existing characters. i dont like the trend of making every character overly complex but seeing how things are being done, i would feel bad for wickerbottom to be left out with only the books we currently have for her

[S19TealPenguin]

Book Suggestions:

• Manufacturing 101
  • 2 Papyrus, 3 flint, 2 logs
  • 4 uses, 40 sanity per use
  • Creates items out of thin air
    • Items are selected based on the following formula:
    • Three random unlocked crafted tabs are chosen
    • A random item or structure is selected from each (with the exception of items that use boss drops or non-renewable resources (pan flute, Hibearnation Vest etc.)
    • Spawn those items/structures near the player.

Spoiler

Some tabs will be mutually exclusive with each other and will not appear if another from its group is chosen

• Magic, Clothing, and Fight
• Science, Structures, and Nautical
• Food and Magic
• Survival and Tools
• Light and Refine

 

Items that are player exclusive cannot be chosen (e.g. books, catapults, Bernie)

Temporary tabs cannot be chosen (e.g. Lunar, Ancient)

• Guide to the Basic Elements
  • 2 uses, 65 sanity per use
  • 2 Papyrus, one red, one blue gem
  • Sets the reader to either 0 or 70 degrees depending on the season (0 in summer/early august, 70 in winter/early spring)
• Care and Maintenance for your Bees
  • 10 uses, 15 sanity per use
  • 2 papyrus, 2 honey
  • Spawns two angry bees per use

[Mike23Ua]

Actually after giving it some thought.. I think I know some perfect ways to Rework Wickerbottom each character seems to be getting new and cool abilities which makes them more interesting to play as and more Team Based gameplay features.

so here are some of my best ideas on a Wickerbottom Rework-

Passive Ability not requiring any books to be crafted “Expert of Silence”

Willow has a Lighter and Bernie in her item slots at the start of any new game so let’s give Wickerbottom a hand to hand combat knife, she can then sneak up & pounce onto and kill creatures that would normally run or fly away such as rabbits or birds (but much like Willows Lighter repeat uses will cost durability and when her Knife breaks she can no longer perform these silent actions until crafting another)

new books to craft some will effect Wickerbottom gameplay- but the more interesting ones will be the ones I have come up with that effects her COOP partners. Let’s get the ones that effect Wickerbottom out the way first- keep all her current books but add at least one new one- “Food preservation” when a food item starts to spoil reading this book will allow Wickerbottom to consume spoiled food without her normal spoilage penalties.

”Mother Nature’s Course”

reading this book would allow Wickerbottom better resistant to the games various weather effects, such as not getting as cold in winter, being able to predict title waves during hurricane season (pretty sure Waves will be added to RoT at some point so yeah) 

 

now that the the two books that effect only Wickerbottom are out of the way let’s get to the fun ones shall we?

Wickerbottom can craft these books- but she CANNOT use them herself only the character the book is designed to work with can use them.

”The Missing Pages of the Codex Umbra”  

giving this book to Maxwell to read will unlock additional Shadow monsters he can summon, instead of just shadow versions of himself he can now summon the various types of night creatures that attack players in the game (summoned creatures will have a distinct purple glow to them to help better indicate to players that these are friendly spawns)

“Strange Science for the Significantly Strange” Giving this book to Wilson will allow him to unlock higher tier crafting items without the actual need of needing the higher tier crafting device (for example he could now craft Alchemy engine tier items from a regular Tier 1 Science Machine without ever having crafted the Alchemy Engine) it will also open up a special tier of craftables mad scientist potions. Allowing him to craft temporary stat boosting consumable potions such as faster movement speed & night vision.

”Maintaining your WX78” Giving this book to a WX78 player will allow them to craft a temporary battery cell for their inventory- the Battery cell would work in the same way as any other item degrading over time until it depletes however for as long as the battery cell is active WX will passively regain health at very slow rate of speed, and will have a force field shield activate over his body during rainfalls to avoid wetness debuffs.

”Controlling your inner Curse”

giving this book to Woodie will allow him to transform between his 3 forms rapidly by his own choice without the hunger and sanity penalties or needing to consume various idols the book would only have a limited amount of uses and would have to be hand crafted by Wickerbottom to balance this otherwise OP Woodie feature.

”Inner Peace for You Outer Demon” 

crafting this book and giving it to a Wortox player will allow them craft an Amulet to Soul Hop without needing to actually consume any souls their Sanity levels will not drop while soul hopping or consuming souls for as long as the amulet hasn’t degraded.

 

i can’t think of any good ones for the rest of the DST character cast but I’m sure now that I’ve mentioned the idea of “Team based books” the development team over at Klei can work something out to make not starving TOGETHER as Wickerbottom more fun.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, DarkPulse91 said:

Now, im one that is against "nerfing" a character just because they are good. And they are specifically Reworking all the characters. And what i am hoping for is that they are not nerfed. Rather, they are given new abilities and having some taken away. Give them a sidegrade if anything, change them. Dont just say "make all books 1 time use" and call it good. No one truly wants that. Imagine if the hype for the "wickerbottom rework" is coming, and the patch notes come out and its just:

• Wicker's books are now 1 time use
• thats it

That wouldnt be interesting, and a lot of people would be angrier than with the woodie refresh.

Now, while I dont have any ideas for what can be brought to the table. One suggestion i could have is that she can create books that characters can simply "read". Where they will sit down and start reading the book. This would work like a bedroll. but the difference is that it doesnt take as much hunger, and restores more sanity than health. these books could be a one time use or 3 time use. And it could be read only during the day when you have light. One thing ive noticed is that some characters or new addictions are just "variants" or "budget" versions of  existing things (example: trusty tape for the sewing kit)
This would add a new way for characters to get sanity without using up tents. But also limiting its use.
It could also be crafted using papyrus and pig skin (leather bound book)

well it's not that the the big three should be straight-up nerfed, there issue is that they offer to much power with too little downside. Wicker in particular has two negligable downsides, but has some of the best resource gathering and boss rushing ability in the game.

[Queron81]

10 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Completely agree with you, all the refreshed characters are getting buffed.. Yet people want to see Wickerbottom and Wolfgang nerfed?

I don't think Wolfgang needs to be nerfed. He can still be the strongman, his mighty form with his strength and faster speed can stay the same. But you can add some more interesting to his gameplay besides beeing strong (or weak, but this isn't never a problem, as food is never a problem).

But I think Wickerbottom should get "nerfs" - not because she is a powerful character, more because she is an old lady and it would fit more to this role. Her power should be her brain, not her body. I don't see it as a nerf if they would make her weaker in fighting or other actions, but stronger in her special abilities - I see it as a more logical change to her playstyle. Add more power to her with more books (and other mechanics), but lower her power in some other actions, so you have to play her different. People like to play her because of her special abilities, so "force" them to use this abilities more and add more variation to them, so the game experience is more intensive. After all it wouldn't be really a nerf, if you change/add something at both ends (advantages/disadvantages).

[pedregales]

In general, I think Wickerbottom does not need many nerfs. Of course, looking at all the reworks, she will receive many changes. As for what I think could work (many of them are not simple)

Nerfs:

• Her books can't be used if the reader doesn't have the sanity to pay. Kind of meaningless that she or Maxwell can keep using her books while having 0 sanity. Even worse is that this is a loophole of Maxwell's second biggest, and most ironic, downside: his dapperness.
• Her health is reduced to 125 and her damage multiplier to 0.75. She is an old lady, so it makes sense that she does not hit as hard as most characters, plus does not take as many hits. She is also very resourceful already with her tentacle traps, her ability to craft darts almost reliably, and farming techniques. And finally, she is a "smart" character, and there should be some encouragement to "play smart" (set up traps, attack from a distance, deal indirect damage like fire, use crowd control, etc.), not just use a spear/ham bat and fight like a Wigfrid or Wolfgang would (not that it wouldn't be smart in some situations, but I hope you get the point); and being more frail will for sure force you to "play smarter".
• Cannot eat stale or spolied food, or monster food. Straight up refuses it. Simultaneously, she gets less stat points from raw food, encouraging the use of a crock pot, or at the very least a campfire.

Buffs:

• The books power can be casted wherever the player wants within a radius. Similar to The Forge. This gives her more leeway on where and how to use them, also makes the use of The End is Nigh much safer. And for funsies, similar to The Forge, her books can be used for hand-to-hand combat, it just does 15 base damage though.
• She needs more books! Specially battle focused books like the Petrifying Tome and Tome of Beckoning in The Forge. A big part of her fighting repertoire should be her books.

Other (not quite buffs, not quite nerfs):

• Her books do not have durability, but instead have cool down (CD); they also have increased crafting cost, and increased sanity cost per use. You can bypass the CD by crafting more books. And books left on the ground are destroyed after some time. Examples:
  • Birds of the World has a 30 second CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 20 eggs + 10 down feathers, and takes 50 sanity to use.
  • Applied Horticulture has a 60 second (1 min) CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 20 manure + 20 living logs, and takes 50 sanity to use. This will only mildly affect you if you have an automated farm with lure plants or a very small farm, and for those you can make more than 1 book.
  • Sleepytime Stories has a 30 second CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 40 nightmare fuel + 10 purple gems, and takes 50 sanity to use. Would have suggested 4 orange gems instead of the purple gems because they are tied with "lazy", but those are not renewable and way too difficult to get for a regular player... although it is very strong.
  • On Tentacles has a 60 second CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 10 tentacle spots + 5 tentacle spikes, and takes 100 sanity to use. Once you make one you in theory will not need more, so I think the cost is more than fine.
  • The End is Nigh has 15 second CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 40 nightmare fuel + 20 red gems, and takes 50 sanity to use.
  • Petrifying Tome has 20 second CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 40 rocks + 20 moon rock, and takes 70 sanity to use. Would have suggested fossils instead of moon rock, but those are not renewable, so...
  • Tome of Beckoning has a 20 second CD, a crafting cost of 10 papyrus + 30 desert stone + 1 telltale heart, and takes 70 sanity to use.
• She starts with 2 books: Applied Horticulture and Birds of the World, instead of 2 papyrus.

[Petit Citron]

I always thought of a vegetarian character, and that would be fitting Wicker quite well, while being an interesting downside.

(I'm an advocate of downsides that force you to think out of the meta and try new strategies, like Wormood's HP management).

The idea is not to nerf her, but rather to give her downsides so Klei can enhance her magic abilities whithout making her to overpowered.

 

I'm sure Klei will create new amazing books.

[Geo.]

I think "the end is night" book needs improvement. How it works today is so randomic that there's practically just one use. To charge the robot.

My idea: When casted, the next five-eight clicks will drop a lightning at selected spot. The timelapse for spellcast could be 10 seconds.

[maciu67]

2 hours ago, pedregales said:

Her health is reduced to 125 and her damage multiplier to 0.75. She is an old lady, so it makes sense that she does not hit as hard as most characters, plus does not take as many hits. She is also very resourceful already with her tentacle traps, her ability to craft darts almost reliably, and farming techniques. And finally, she is a "smart" character, and there should be some encouragement to "play smart" (set up traps, attack from a distance, deal indirect damage like fire, use crowd control, etc.), not just use a spear/ham bat and fight like a Wigfrid or Wolfgang would (not that it wouldn't be smart in some situations, but I hope you get the point); and being more frail will for sure force you to "play smarter".

This + new books and nothing more.

[00petar00]

4 hours ago, pedregales said:

Nerfs:

• Her books can't be used if the reader doesn't have the sanity to pay. Kind of meaningless that she or Maxwell can keep using her books while having 0 sanity. Even worse is that this is a loophole of Maxwell's second biggest, and most ironic, downside: his dapperness.
• Her health is reduced to 125 and her damage multiplier to 0.75. She is an old lady, so it makes sense that she does not hit as hard as most characters, plus does not take as many hits. She is also very resourceful already with her tentacle traps, her ability to craft darts almost reliably, and farming techniques. And finally, she is a "smart" character, and there should be some encouragement to "play smart" (set up traps, attack from a distance, deal indirect damage like fire, use crowd control, etc.), not just use a spear/ham bat and fight like a Wigfrid or Wolfgang would (not that it wouldn't be smart in some situations, but I hope you get the point); and being more frail will for sure force you to "play smarter".
• Cannot eat stale or spolied food, or monster food. Straight up refuses it. Simultaneously, she gets less stat points from raw food, encouraging the use of a crock pot, or at the very least a campfire.

 

No matter how strong the buffs you listed  can be, if you nerf her to the  ground, how strong her books are won't matter.

Unable to use books without sanity, i completely disagree on this one, reading book once is 33-50 sanity, i mostly end up reading them when im insane because i read a couple of the books at once, up to 10.

No one is going to set a fire to kill one mob or two, nerfing her health and damage at the same time while you nerf her books in the way that she can't read them without sanity.. Basically will make her a useless character unless you abuse the game and make a sanity farm with bee queen hat, that way you'll get 5-10 sanity per second so you'd be able to spam  books.

All characters that have been refreshed have been buffed, at least i don't want Wickerbottom to be nerfed hard, damage nerf is much bigger then you realize. Health can be dealt with but both at the same time is a really big stretch plus you want her to not be able to read books while insane.

I'd be fine with a health nerf and disabling her from eating any kind of stale food, not with damage nerf and not able to read books while insane.

The buff you suggested of her being able to control the area of end is nigh will just make her perfect grief character. You'd need to be lightning resistant to kill other players on non pvp worlds, Eyebrella works but that's quite a while down the road, people will just pick her to troll.

 

[pedregales]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

No matter how strong the buffs you listed  can be, if you nerf her to the  ground, how strong her books are won't matter.

I did not nerf her to the ground though... The first bullet point is something that should have been there since the beginning (below I will explain why), and the 3rd bullet point is easily avoidable since she can make fresh food almost anytime (even with the book cool down suggestion).

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Unable to use books without sanity, i completely disagree on this one, reading book once is 33-50 sanity, i mostly end up reading them when im insane because i read a couple of the books at once, up to 10.

That is the point. To give you an example: Wes consumes sanity when inflating balloons, once his sanity reaches 0 he cannot make more balloons, Maxwell can create some shadow minions at the expense of total sanity, but he has a maximum amount of minions he can summon. But Wicker (or a reader Maxwell) can keep reading and reading a book despite having 0 sanity, bypassing their sanity cost; this is even more problematic because most of Wicker's book offer far more utility than Wes' balloons and Maxwell's shadow minions, with only the end is nigh being a "bad" book (still can be used for a couple things: like charge up a lightning rod, charge up a volt goat for volt goat milk, or charge WX-78).

To make it even worse, Wicker has the means to restore her sanity via Applied Horticulture while using it once, and get more than enough sanity food to go from 0 to full sanity (250 in her case). There is no good reason why Wicker (or Maxwell with his natural dapperness) should be able to bypass the sanity cost of her books.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

No one is going to set a fire to kill one mob or two, nerfing her health and damage at the same time while you nerf her books in the way that she can't read them without sanity.. Basically will make her a useless character unless you abuse the game and make a sanity farm with bee queen hat, that way you'll get 5-10 sanity per second so you'd be able to spam  books.

All characters that have been refreshed have been buffed, at least i don't want Wickerbottom to be nerfed hard, damage nerf is much bigger then you realize. Health can be dealt with but both at the same time is a really big stretch plus you want her to not be able to read books while insane.

I'd be fine with a health nerf and disabling her from eating any kind of stale food, not with damage nerf and not able to read books while insane.

Considering the amount of utility Wicker offers to any team (even a "solo team"), she would be far from useless with any of the changes suggested. And sanity is barely a problem even for a character that can't sleep: ice cream restores 50 sanity; salsa fresca restores 33 sanity; melonsicle restores 20 sanity; cooked green caps, pumpkin cookie, fancy spiraled tubers, or taffy restore 15 sanity; cooked blue caps restore 10 sanity; and, as you suggest sanity, farm with bee queen hat.

A damage nerf is not really that big of a deal if you have the means to deal damage through other ways or stay safe, and Wickerbottom has more than the means to do just that even if she had to recover her sanity in order to use her books.

As for the characters not being nerfed... That is not true: Winona acquired 5 hunger cost per crafting, which then became 5 hunger cost per "batch crafting". Willow is more susceptible to freezing and takes more freezing damage, plus insulating items give less insulation on her. Warly now in DST is completely unable to eat anything that is not crock pot made (in SW he can eat raw and campfire cooked foods at a penalty). And Woodie lost his pinecone sanity heal and a proper way to detransform during a full moon (though that one seems more like an oversight).

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The buff you suggested of her being able to control the area of end is nigh will just make her perfect grief character. You'd need to be lightning resistant to kill other players on non pvp worlds, Eyebrella works but that's quite a while down the road, people will just pick her to troll.

Eh. This is not a good argument considering there are so many other ways to grief and so much easier than using the end is nigh: what is stopping a player from grabbing a torch and burning a base? What is stopping a player to bring deerclops or bearger to base? What is stopping a player from crafting a hammer and destroying everything? What is stopping a player from crafting The End is Nigh and using it to kill other players anyway?

Also, is PvP a thing? Don't get me wrong, but I have yet to play PvP, and it doesn't seem to be too big (at least when compared to PvE); so basing all game balance/changes on a game mode that is not played as much, is not a good idea. Plus hey are so different, they should have different mechanics in general.

[gghhrr]

just giving my opinion, I actually like the way Wickerbottom is now

At first sight, some of her books seem to be useless( in DS ) 

but players are able to make them powerful and useful in other ways

 

the characters' rework like Woodie are so fun and temporarily outshine others

So far she is making super great combination with most characters ( Wx-78, Woomwood, etc..)

I would like to see her having new mechanics/books that may indirectly helpful to her own

 

btw, she is the only character opening eye even she is sleeping

I must agree the mod Wickerbottom die from aging is just a proper logical mechanic

What I expect the most of her rework is her downside

[Mike23Ua]

Just because someone is older (& wiser) than someone who is young does not necessarily mean that they are an incapable liability I say this from real life experience..

i know 70-90 year old grandmothers who can get up and move better then their lazy butt (is Butt an okay word to say on here?)  16-50yr old children/grand children.

Wickerbottoms downsides should be her inability to sleep and refusal to eat spoiled/spicy foods.

As a librarian one of her downsides should also be too much noise, which could weigh on her sanity levels 

speaking as someone who enjoys complete silence from time to time.. when people or something loud interrupts that it can be highly annoying.

[metallichydra]

bad ideas:

 

new books (no recipes and / or sanity costs):

winds and storms: will make strong winds, causing boats to move faster. strong winds can also harvest stuff (grass, twigs, berries) and "chop" old and small trees. also have a chance of causing rain.

 

geologists handbook: will cause earthquakes when read in the caves.

 

the moon: causes moon rocks to rain from the sky. also causes pigs to transform into werepigs.

 

learn to craft: when used, a random crafting recipe is learned. all characters can use this book.

 

beefalo care and training: grooms all beefalo nearby, and makes them a little more domesticated.

 

horrors in the night; a horror-book. lowers sanity (a lot) and spawns a shadow creature.

 

medicine and healing: heals nearby players by 20 - 40 health.

 

spirits of the dead: causes ghosts to spawn from graves, revives nearby players (consumes whole book) and heals abigals.

 

a new type of chest wicker could craft

the bookcase! will be able to hold up to 30 books, but only books can be placed inside it.

 

 

[00petar00]

12 hours ago, pedregales said:

I did not nerf her to the ground though... The first bullet point is something that should have been there since the beginning (below I will explain why), and the 3rd bullet point is easily avoidable since she can make fresh food almost anytime (even with the book cool down suggestion).

That is the point. To give you an example: Wes consumes sanity when inflating balloons, once his sanity reaches 0 he cannot make more balloons, Maxwell can create some shadow minions at the expense of total sanity, but he has a maximum amount of minions he can summon. But Wicker (or a reader Maxwell) can keep reading and reading a book despite having 0 sanity, bypassing their sanity cost; this is even more problematic because most of Wicker's book offer far more utility than Wes' balloons and Maxwell's shadow minions, with only the end is nigh being a "bad" book (still can be used for a couple things: like charge up a lightning rod, charge up a volt goat for volt goat milk, or charge WX-78).

To make it even worse, Wicker has the means to restore her sanity via Applied Horticulture while using it once, and get more than enough sanity food to go from 0 to full sanity (250 in her case). There is no good reason why Wicker (or Maxwell with his natural dapperness) should be able to bypass the sanity cost of her books.

Considering the amount of utility Wicker offers to any team (even a "solo team"), she would be far from useless with any of the changes suggested. And sanity is barely a problem even for a character that can't sleep: ice cream restores 50 sanity; salsa fresca restores 33 sanity; melonsicle restores 20 sanity; cooked green caps, pumpkin cookie, fancy spiraled tubers, or taffy restore 15 sanity; cooked blue caps restore 10 sanity; and, as you suggest sanity, farm with bee queen hat.

A damage nerf is not really that big of a deal if you have the means to deal damage through other ways or stay safe, and Wickerbottom has more than the means to do just that even if she had to recover her sanity in order to use her books.

As for the characters not being nerfed... That is not true: Winona acquired 5 hunger cost per crafting, which then became 5 hunger cost per "batch crafting". Willow is more susceptible to freezing and takes more freezing damage, plus insulating items give less insulation on her. Warly now in DST is completely unable to eat anything that is not crock pot made (in SW he can eat raw and campfire cooked foods at a penalty). And Woodie lost his pinecone sanity heal and a proper way to detransform during a full moon (though that one seems more like an oversight).

Eh. This is not a good argument considering there are so many other ways to grief and so much easier than using the end is nigh: what is stopping a player from grabbing a torch and burning a base? What is stopping a player to bring deerclops or bearger to base? What is stopping a player from crafting a hammer and destroying everything? What is stopping a player from crafting The End is Nigh and using it to kill other players anyway?

Also, is PvP a thing? Don't get me wrong, but I have yet to play PvP, and it doesn't seem to be too big (at least when compared to PvE); so basing all game balance/changes on a game mode that is not played as much, is not a good idea. Plus hey are so different, they should have different mechanics in general.

 

So nerfing her HP, disabling her from reading books at 0 sanity and 0.75% damage modifier isn't nerfing her to the ground? can you at least use logic and understand how each of these nerfs are big, hard to think that you'd come with a logical answer considering the reason you stated that she should be nerfed because she is old while wolfgang isn't and shouldn't be nerfed..

Is anyone even supposed to take you seriously when you compare Wes to other characters? Wes is supposed to be hard mode character that you pick to test yourself and how good you are at the game if you actually are a masochist enough to want to go though that.

Look at all the servers online whenever you can connect and tell me how many wes players are there, i'd be surprised if you find 2-3 in all the online servers at any moment you decide to check.

The idea is not that i want to restore her sanity, i want to stay insane while using books and permanent nightmare fuel, i can easily restore sanity but when i want to use 10 or more books i don't feel like going though that and also i won't be able to stay insane most of the time i actually do for gathering countless nightmare fuel needed to maintain my dark sword usage.

Look at the changes done to Woodie currently, do you actually think that he isn't S tier character right now? he is probably best to pick when you start a new world and is really good for Bee queen and killing splumonkies. He actually makes boats useless and you are going to say that he doesn't bring any utility or benefits to the team? Don't forget he has 50% of getting treeguards to spawn compared to other characters. If klei is buffing characters like that up to S tier, i don't see them nerfing Wickerbottom nowhere near as hard as you suggest. 

0.75% damage modifier is insanely big thing, you'd be forced to change her to wolfgang any time you didn't or couldn't use tentacles to fight a boss, also you want her to have 125 hp and not be able to read books while insane, at this point i'd be happier if they nerfed her hp to 75 and make her frail like Maxwell but leave the damage alone.

Just because she can use tentacles it doesn't mean that it is consistent damage that she can just use anywhere, especially considering you'd want her to not be able to use it while insane and most players that play Wickerbottom don't want to be forced to place tentacles over the whole map when they fight anything, other players will just kick Wickerbottom from the server as they'll die to them. We want consistent damage and the best  consistent damage is using a weapon, most creatures are kiteable, meaning you don't need to take any damage fighting them, you don't want to waste time hitting a boss for a full day because of 0.75% damage modifier.

Now you are talking about Winona nerf? You realize they nerfed her after they did her refresh and she was overall buffed, that nerf isn't as strong as you make it out to be, her faster crafting in late game is more useful then 5 hunger  cost, when i say late game i have unlimited food by day 40 or so with basically any character if i decide to base. Also considering her catapults are even better then Wickerbottom's tentacles overall is because they'll be permanent, only issue is that it is too expensive to set up but if you are planning on playing up to day 200-500 world, it is much better to set that up for bosses like dragon fly and bee queen as you'll be killing them often. Tentacles die overall but her catapults if placed correctly, won't get destroyed by bosses, you can use it to permanently farm them.

Problem with griefing with the end is nigh is that even on servers with ownership or other mods to stop griefers from destroying your base, they can kill you and disable you from participating in the game in any way with this book, and you can also read 10 on tentacles books near portal, lets see if there's any other character who can grief as well as her.

There used to be a really big pvp server at some point 2-3 years ago with 20-30 players online at least most of the day, but there's no pvp scene for DST anymore. That's not the point and i never mentioned PVP, the bigger problem is using Wickerbottom to grief on non pvp servers.

[Mike23Ua]

I think someone who doesn’t actively play as these characters should not have a right to speak on what needs to be buffed or nerfed into oblivion- people will ALWAYS be biased towards their favorite character and want everyone else to pale in comparison hence the reason this guy wants Wickerbottom to become a fragile lil old lady who can’t do much damage or take much damage.. however- while my main is and probably always will be Wendy- 

i host a server where ghost mode is disabled and when you Die.. you respawn as another character Randomly (or sometimes I play so that when I die.. I can’t be that character again) as such I’ve had a lot of playtime with the entire DST cast- 

with the exception of Wormwood who I just unlocked last night.

when it comes to these characters Reworks I don’t want to see anyone nerfed to oblivion- they need to all have one core focus, make them all fun interesting and totally unique gameplay experiences, but at the same time.. make them feel less like boring generic clones of another character and give them all unique abilities That makes choosing to play as them less about “I’m gonna choose the most OP character to play as.. and more about “I’m going to play as so-so today because their gameplay style fits my mood”

currently the only characters with enough unique features going for them are Warly, Winona, Willow, Woodie, Wortox & Wormwood.

the rest of the entire cast could use some much needed Reworks... and I’m not talking about nerfs/buffs I mean a complete REWORK to be as fun to play as as the ones they’ve already reworked.

6 down.. 9 more to go.

[Mooagain]

On 9/15/2019 at 1:12 PM, sinisterrkid said:

I want Poopytime Stories which makes all surrounding mobs and players poop.

I'm not joking. Look at me. I'm serious.

Better name idea, call it "Auntie Wicker's Bathroom Reader"

[pedregales]

 

Spoiler

23 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

So nerfing her HP, disabling her from reading books at 0 sanity and 0.75% damage modifier isn't nerfing her to the ground? can you at least use logic and understand how each of these nerfs are big, hard to think that you'd come with a logical answer considering the reason you stated that she should be nerfed because she is old while wolfgang isn't and shouldn't be nerfed..

Is anyone even supposed to take you seriously when you compare Wes to other characters? Wes is supposed to be hard mode character that you pick to test yourself and how good you are at the game if you actually are a masochist enough to want to go though that.

Look at all the servers online whenever you can connect and tell me how many wes players are there, i'd be surprised if you find 2-3 in all the online servers at any moment you decide to check.

The idea is not that i want to restore her sanity, i want to stay insane while using books and permanent nightmare fuel, i can easily restore sanity but when i want to use 10 or more books i don't feel like going though that and also i won't be able to stay insane most of the time i actually do for gathering countless nightmare fuel needed to maintain my dark sword usage.

Look at the changes done to Woodie currently, do you actually think that he isn't S tier character right now? he is probably best to pick when you start a new world and is really good for Bee queen and killing splumonkies. He actually makes boats useless and you are going to say that he doesn't bring any utility or benefits to the team? Don't forget he has 50% of getting treeguards to spawn compared to other characters. If klei is buffing characters like that up to S tier, i don't see them nerfing Wickerbottom nowhere near as hard as you suggest. 

0.75% damage modifier is insanely big thing, you'd be forced to change her to wolfgang any time you didn't or couldn't use tentacles to fight a boss, also you want her to have 125 hp and not be able to read books while insane, at this point i'd be happier if they nerfed her hp to 75 and make her frail like Maxwell but leave the damage alone.

Just because she can use tentacles it doesn't mean that it is consistent damage that she can just use anywhere, especially considering you'd want her to not be able to use it while insane and most players that play Wickerbottom don't want to be forced to place tentacles over the whole map when they fight anything, other players will just kick Wickerbottom from the server as they'll die to them. We want consistent damage and the best  consistent damage is using a weapon, most creatures are kiteable, meaning you don't need to take any damage fighting them, you don't want to waste time hitting a boss for a full day because of 0.75% damage modifier.

Now you are talking about Winona nerf? You realize they nerfed her after they did her refresh and she was overall buffed, that nerf isn't as strong as you make it out to be, her faster crafting in late game is more useful then 5 hunger  cost, when i say late game i have unlimited food by day 40 or so with basically any character if i decide to base. Also considering her catapults are even better then Wickerbottom's tentacles overall is because they'll be permanent, only issue is that it is too expensive to set up but if you are planning on playing up to day 200-500 world, it is much better to set that up for bosses like dragon fly and bee queen as you'll be killing them often. Tentacles die overall but her catapults if placed correctly, won't get destroyed by bosses, you can use it to permanently farm them.

Problem with griefing with the end is nigh is that even on servers with ownership or other mods to stop griefers from destroying your base, they can kill you and disable you from participating in the game in any way with this book, and you can also read 10 on tentacles books near portal, lets see if there's any other character who can grief as well as her.

There used to be a really big pvp server at some point 2-3 years ago with 20-30 players online at least most of the day, but there's no pvp scene for DST anymore. That's not the point and i never mentioned PVP, the bigger problem is using Wickerbottom to grief on non pvp servers.

 

I only subtracted 25 health from her player-average 150 health, is not like she would be Maxwell frail, besides, healing health is easy, specially with Wicker. Her being able to bypass sanity cost per book-read is what let's her be completely busted, specially because you can stay insane to farm nightmare fuel, which is yet again why Maxwell reading is such a great way to bypass his second biggest downside: dapperness; plus again: recovering sanity is not that hard specially if you play Wicker. A 0.75 damage modifier is not that big of a deal: Wendy is a perfectly good character despite having it because Abigail offers more than enough usefulness on her own; and do you know what offers more usefulness than abigail? Wicker's books.

And you can find plenty of people doing well with Wes. Wes is not that much of a "challenge" despite being the "challenge character". He is just a Wilson with worse stats, so whatever you do with Wilson, you do with Wes; battles will just be riskier and longer. But for Wicker, they wouldn't have to be longer or riskier because she can use on tentacles and sleepytime stories, plus any other new books that she could possibly use for combat after her rework (since I hope she gets more books).

---

I mentioned those character rework nerfs because you said no character was nerfed during their rework, which as I proved: is wrong. I never mentioned Woodie (or any of them) were useless after their reworks (I mean, Woodie kind of was until his forms were buffed to last longer). All characters reworked have got nerfs, doesn't matter how useful they are now.

As for Winona's nerf: I forgot to mention she can't speed craft when her hunger is below 50; sure, she also does not lose 5 hunger, but speed craft was Winona's biggest thing before the rework; now it costs hunger and is unactive under a certain hunger threshold. Not the biggest of deals, but it sure would be nice if she could bypass it like Wicker does so she can craft faster, oh, wait, you can't farm nightmare fuel on low hunger? What a shame /s. Not to mention speed crafting is still not as useful as any of Wicker's books.

---

So you are telling me that a griefer would go to the extent of picking Wicker -> farming 8 cut reeds for 2 extra papyrus -> Get enough materials for an alchemy engine -> kill enough tentacles to get 2 tentacle spots (25% chance each) -> make the 2 on tentacles books and use them on spawn 10 times? Don't you think that is a little convoluted to be common place? Like, I can get people doing it or trying to do it because creativity and what not; but I don't think this is something griefers would do a lot. And again, there are plenty of ways to grief even with protective mods on: lure seasonal giants to base, eat all food, craft stuff you find into useless junk (say, who needs 4 lightning rods at the exact same place?), etc. And to add more: for the end is nigh you need a red gem, so you would have to also make a shovel, dig graves until you find a red gem, or wait for summer when fire hounds spawn, and kill them; plus you need to build a prestihatitator and a shadow manipulator to make the end is nigh. Griefing with Wicker would not be common place.

You are right, you never mentioned PvP, I misread and jumped the gut there. Sorry about that.

------

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think someone who doesn’t actively play as these characters should not have a right to speak on what needs to be buffed or nerfed into oblivion- people will ALWAYS be biased towards their favorite character and want everyone else to pale in comparison hence the reason this guy wants Wickerbottom to become a fragile lil old lady who can’t do much damage or take much damage.. however- while my main is and probably always will be Wendy- 

[...]

A player doesn't have to be "actively" playing a character in order to give their overall opinion on them. Just with looking at how other people play the character, and trying the character themselves a couple times is enough to form a decent opinion on the character and what could be tweaked or not.

Also, I do not have a main. I play whichever, whenever; except for Wortox and Wormwood as I can't play them. I enjoy each one of them (except Webber, his gameplay is interesting, but I don't like the character). And I have made my opinion on each of them, pre and post rework.

[Mike23Ua]

23 minutes ago, pedregales said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I only subtracted 25 health from her player-average 150 health, is not like she would be Maxwell frail, besides, healing health is easy, specially with Wicker. Her being able to bypass sanity cost per book-read is what let's her be completely busted, specially because you can stay insane to farm nightmare fuel, which is yet again why Maxwell reading is such a great way to bypass his second biggest downside: dapperness; plus again: recovering sanity is not that hard specially if you play Wicker. A 0.75 damage modifier is not that big of a deal: Wendy is a perfectly good character despite having it because Abigail offers more than enough usefulness on her own; and do you know what offers more usefulness than abigail? Wicker's books.

And you can find plenty of people doing well with Wes. Wes is not that much of a "challenge" despite being the "challenge character". He is just a Wilson with worse stats, so whatever you do with Wilson, you do with Wes; battles will just be riskier and longer. But for Wicker, they wouldn't have to be longer or riskier because she can use on tentacles and sleepytime stories, plus any other new books that she could possibly use for combat after her rework (since I hope she gets more books).

---

I mentioned those character rework nerfs because you said no character was nerfed during their rework, which as I proved: is wrong. I never mentioned Woodie (or any of them) were useless after their reworks (I mean, Woodie kind of was until his forms were buffed to last longer). All characters reworked have got nerfs, doesn't matter how useful they are now.

As for Winona's nerf: I forgot to mention she can't speed craft when her hunger is below 50; sure, she also does not lose 5 hunger, but speed craft was Winona's biggest thing before the rework; now it costs hunger and is unactive under a certain hunger threshold. Not the biggest of deals, but it sure would be nice if she could bypass it like Wicker does so she can craft faster, oh, wait, you can't farm nightmare fuel on low hunger? What a shame /s. Not to mention speed crafting is still not as useful as any of Wicker's books.

---

So you are telling me that a griefer would go to the extent of picking Wicker -> farming 8 cut reeds for 2 extra papyrus -> Get enough materials for an alchemy engine -> kill enough tentacles to get 2 tentacle spots (25% chance each) -> make the 2 on tentacles books and use them on spawn 10 times? Don't you think that is a little convoluted to be common place? Like, I can get people doing it or trying to do it because creativity and what not; but I don't think this is something griefers would do a lot. And again, there are plenty of ways to grief even with protective mods on: lure seasonal giants to base, eat all food, craft stuff you find into useless junk (say, who needs 4 lightning rods at the exact same place?), etc. And to add more: for the end is nigh you need a red gem, so you would have to also make a shovel, dig graves until you find a red gem, or wait for summer when fire hounds spawn, and kill them; plus you need to build a prestihatitator and a shadow manipulator to make the end is nigh. Griefing with Wicker would not be common place.

You are right, you never mentioned PvP, I misread and jumped the gut there. Sorry about that.

------

A player doesn't have to be "actively" playing a character in order to give their overall opinion on them. Just with looking at how other people play the character, and trying the character themselves a couple times is enough to form a decent opinion on the character and what could be tweaked or not.

Also, I do not have a main. I play whichever, whenever; except for Wortox and Wormwood as I can't play them. I enjoy each one of them (except Webber, his gameplay is interesting, but I don't like the character). And I have made my opinion on each of them, pre and post rework.

Aww but Webber’s Adorable!! How can you hate on that little guy?

[Cpt. KatKit]

How about stuff like how the infinite hunt for knowledge has an impact on liches in fantasy? Here is a flavorful attempt for a rework\nerf:

1) Books consume slightly less sanity than they currently do

Justification : Read further

2) Reading a book imposes a 15 MAX sanity penalty on her. Repeated reading will get this low enough to having to fight a lot of nightmares eventually.

Justification : All the reading and the writing. Wickerbottom cannot stop thinking about what she just read. This will make it harder for her to return to normal.

3) Being around friends and campfires slightly regenerates the maximum and current sanity. Things that players happily murder like Glommer and Catcoons are suddenly important for wicker to stay sane! Bernie also helps slightly regenerating this max sanity.

Justification : Flavorful solution to the penalties. Living creatures remind her of her humanity and fix her sanity problems. prolonged exposure is guaranteed to wipe out the book side effects!

4) 50% penalty to traditional sanity regeneration from hats, nightmares and food.

Justification : If you want to go all out with books you better be prepared to handle the nightmares.

5) 2 terrorbeaks instantly appear to hunt wicker if reading a book drops her below 10 sanity.

Justification : Sometimes you forget to stop in time and regret it.

 

Maxwell of course would also get the max sanity bonus and the two terrorbeaks on very low sanity casts. But he has passive regeneration and more max sanity which makes him an a nice helper for her to share the book casts. (although he'll probably be much more annoying to debug since he can already lower his max sanity..)

[Queron81]

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Look at all the servers online whenever you can connect and tell me how many wes players are there, i'd be surprised if you find 2-3 in all the online servers at any moment you decide to check.

The last days I met Wes players on two different public servers and they played there for longer. Without checking all the servers, I just joined these servers.

They can add some more strong books and there is enough sanity food, so you can't compare this to Wes, as he doesn't have any possibilites to counter his downsides (compared to the other characters). Reading books costs sanity, so no sanity = no reading books (or could you read a book when totally insane? ). We are talking here about suggestions, they don't have to add all disadvantages mentioned here. You can balance everything. How about a book making her stronger for an amount of time? Like change her strength modifier from 0.75 back to 1.0 or even to 1.25? Or a book putting her to sleep?
Make her playstyle more book-based and the books more effecting and supporting herself.

[kiwikenobi]

On 9/15/2019 at 9:12 AM, sinisterrkid said:

I want Poopytime Stories which makes all surrounding mobs and players poop.

Another title for this book could be "The Brown Note."

[Queron81]

41 minutes ago, kiwikenobi said:

Another title for this book could be "The Brown Note."

Or how about "Party-O-Poop"?

[pedregales]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Aww but Webber’s Adorable!! How can you hate on that little guy?

Oh, I don't hate him. I just find him way too off-putting. I can get why people like him though: his mechanics are interesting, and he is lovable. But there are things that just throw me off with him (most notably the always open mouth, which I understand comes from the spiders).