[Discussion] On Wickerbottom reworks

[GetNerfedOn]

When Wickerbottom's rework inevitably comes, and the community's outcry for her to be nerfed alongside the rest of the trifecta comes to pass, what can we expect? What changes do we want out of her?

This question goes especially to the nerfs, because they need to be engaging downsides which don't break her gameplay, and make it interesting.

My initial suggestion would be to disable Wickerbottom's ability to read books once she is at 60 sanity or less. Being able to spam reading books while mentally unstable or insane doesn't make sense, and having to require clarity of mind for her books to function would not only make sense, but also change her game plan to work around this obstacle.

Also, an idea i've taken from Chaosky's stream is to expand her diet's limitations - though i personally cannot expound upon this, I've got no clue here haha

Any other suggestions and opinions? Do feel free to post them here!

[maciu67]

New Book: Moon in the skye:

2X papirus + 4X moon rock

The book has two uses and subtracts 50 sanity points in one use. The book evokes a meteor shower in close proximity to the character. Meteor Boulder does not appear after using the book.

[NormalPinkerton]

What if she had more downsides when insane, like a 0.75 damage multiplier.

[Atkvin]

not experienced with wicker, but at first I thought about making her be capable of memorizing and rejecting foods she had eaten stale for a duration, but realized that could just be sidestepped with common sense to avoid feeding her that in the first place.

I guess maybe you could make her inverse of Wigfrid and only strictly vegetarian since she is old and can't eat red meat for health reasons and also synergize with her vegetable jungle powers but don't got much more than that

the fact that she's elderly and intelligent in a world of survival should give room for a lot of creativity though - stuff like health concerns or worrying about food poisoning etc

[sinisterrkid]

36 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

the community's outcry for her to be nerfed

All characters are getting buffed, why would we want Wicker to be worse now? New drawbacks + new perks would be great, but that doesn't mean gutting her upsides because there used to only be 3 goood characters and that was unfair or whatever

[NormalPinkerton]

Just now, sinisterrkid said:

All characters are getting buffed, why would we want Wicker to be worse? New drawbacks + new perks would be great, but that doesn't mean gutting her upsides because there used to only be 3 goood characters and that was unfair or whatever

Well, all the characters that have been reworked so far were regarded as weak, but Wickerbottom is widely thought of as the best character in the game, so that's not a quite fair comparison. With that said, Klei has stated that the charcters won't get nerfed, at least directly.

[sinisterrkid]

38 minutes ago, maciu67 said:

New Book: Moon in the skye:

2X papirus + 4X moon rock

[...] The book evokes a meteor shower in close proximity to the character. Meteor Boulder does not appear after using the book.

That would be cool and would be like her DS/Shipwrecked book "Joy of Volcanology", but we can be sure it won't happen because it's a huge doorway to griefing, which is something Klei avoids.

I want Poopytime Stories which makes all surrounding mobs and players poop.

I'm not joking. Look at me. I'm serious.

[Queron81]

1 minute ago, maciu67 said:

The book evokes a meteor shower in close proximity to the character. Meteor Boulder does not appear after using the book.

Problem here: Some people could use this book in bases (4 moon rocks are easy to collect).

For new books they should make sure it can't be used for griefing. I would like to see the Petrifying Tome and the Tome of Beckoning from Forge in the basic game (or something similar for combat, so instead of petrifying it could be freezing, needing ice a blue gems - and instead of magma golem something different). As a downside Wickerbottom should be weaker or slower in combat (as she is an old lady), so she could act more as a supporter. Or how about a book she could make wormholes with (with 2 uses, so she could make a pair of wormholes leading to each other). This book should require 4 tentacle spots and 20 hound's tooth.

She could have lower health (100). I also thought about making her a bit slower (0.85), but I think that would be a too big downside (wouldn't be able to run away from hounds and other mobs or bosses). So maybe give her a stamina for running, so she would have to make short breaks for regenerating stamina (she should be able to run 60 seconds without break, stamina regeneration 3x faster than consuming, eating vegetable or sweet dishes could fill her stamina faster).

[NormalPinkerton]

4 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said:

[snip, snip]

Nice sh*tposting

[Well-met]

I cannot fathom what they'll do with the top tier chars. Anyone trying to will just set themselves up for disappointment or unpleasant surprises.

[maciu67]

1 hour ago, Queron81 said:

Problem here: Some people could use this book in bases (4 moon rocks are easy to collect).

Two twigs and two cut grass are easier to collect and player can use them to craft torch and light all structures in base.

[Frashaw27]

6 minutes ago, maciu67 said:

Two twigs and two cut grass are easier to collect and player can use them to craft torch and light all structures in base.

You can prevent fires, you can't prevent metors.

[maciu67]

1 minute ago, Frashaw27 said:

You can prevent fires, you can't prevent metors.

You also can't prevent tentacles if they are in base and Wickerbottom can do this.

[Terra_Zina]

I think this guy got it

[Maxposting]

2 hours ago, maciu67 said:

New Book: Moon in the skye:

2X papirus + 4X moon rock

The book has two uses and subtracts 50 sanity points in one use. The book evokes a meteor shower in close proximity to the character. Meteor Boulder does not appear after using the book.

Ah yes, lets make a book noone except griefers will use because stone fruits and applied horticulture exist for rock production.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, sinisterrkid said:

All characters are getting buffed, why would we want Wicker to be worse now? New drawbacks + new perks would be great, but that doesn't mean gutting her upsides because there used to only be 3 goood characters and that was unfair or whatever

Completely agree with you, all the refreshed characters are getting buffed.. Yet people want to see Wickerbottom and Wolfgang nerfed? I wouldn't mind a small nerf to her if they really want to go ahead and do it, but not anything big like not allowing her to read books while insane..

That's the whole point because we want to go insane to hunt for nightmare fuel while we also want to set up tentacle traps, go ahead and  try reading 10 books of on tentacles now without letting your sanity go below 60 and tell me how much effort it takes..

What i want to see is all characters playable with their strength excelling over other characters in specific situations.

8 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Ah yes, lets make a book noone except griefers will use because stone fruits and applied horticulture exist for rock production.

She is already a griefing machine with the end is nigh, i've killed a player with it before on a non pvp server when they stole loot from a boss that i killed.

[maciu67]

7 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Ah yes, lets make a book noone except griefers will use because stone fruits and applied horticulture exist for rock production.

IvoCZE I get the impression that you don't like me.

[Maxposting]

Just now, maciu67 said:

IvoCZE I get the impression that you don't like me.

I just don't like your ideas that get replaced by stuff already in-game or your baseless lore theories

[maciu67]

10 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

I just don't like your ideas that get replaced by stuff already in-game or your baseless lore theories

Baseless but you have to admit that they are dark and complex (and Pig King is not Wilba's father).

[Ohan]

hmmm an idea that just popped into my head: 

books dont break when depleted and she cant craft more than 1 of each book. (more uses, much more expensive crafting recipes) i dont like how her books are extremely disposable and i would like to be more precious with them. (id love to see a special book case structure to store them in) 

When a book is depleted she has to study up the subject more to restore charges. -> do more writing, more research, add additional 'chapters' to the book. 

I imagine this as mini quests/deliveries to the book.

so Applied Horticulture could ask her to deliver two lichens and some guano, or do an 'inspect/write' action at x amount of berry bushes, deliver diseased plant, kill a gobbler ...

On Tentacles could ask: kill x tentapillars, watch x amount of creatures be killed by tentacles, deliver marsh turf, ... 

the mini quests could be more or less challenging these are just off the top of my head. 

[Canis]

3 hours ago, maciu67 said:

New Book: Moon in the skye:

2X papirus + 4X moon rock

The book has two uses and subtracts 50 sanity points in one use. The book evokes a meteor shower in close proximity to the character. Meteor Boulder does not appear after using the book.

Honestly, I'd be for this existing if it DID spawn meteor boulders. It's a way to farm rocks, moonrocks, flint, nitre, etc etc.

 

Also, balancing around how it can be used for griefing is a severely bad idea. Just look at how DST Willow and Woodie played for half a decade. If someone is going to grief, they're going to do so no matter what you do.

[Pruinae]

Here's what I have:
- Wickerbottom needs to have the sanity the book requires before being able to use it. (So that also means that she cannot use books while at 0 sanity, may need some changes to how much sanity each book drains)

- The books have unlimited durability but are more expensive to craft and Wickerbottom also has to complete some prerequisites before unlocking the recipes:
Birds of the World: Examine every/almost every type of bird.
On Tentacles: Kill a big tentacle and examine the item "Tentacle Spots" (too easy).
Sleepytime Stories: Examine X different mobs while they are asleep.
The End is Nigh!: Don't die after getting struck by lightning (may be too easy with something like the Telelocator Staff, but those are just ideas).
Applied Horticulture: Be nearby X different plants during their "growing" animation.

- Without removing the previous uses the books had, they have new effects:
Birds of the World: Cast a spell in an area, birds come to the players in the area and make them fly (the duration of the buff could be seen by the amount of birds left carrying the player around), this make so said player gets a walking cane speed boost and can go over water (maybe over the cave void too?). While in this state the affected players cannot do actions such as chopping, mining, etc. Players may dismiss the birds so the buff ends sooner. This buff does not works with Woodie. The amount of sanity lost could be based in how many players were affected.
On Tentacles: Cast a spell in an area to temporarily pacify tentacles, if a big tentacle is in the area it will retreat into its hole (without dropping the loot?).
Sleepytime Stories: Cast a spell in an area, mobs in the area will fall asleep for an "undetermined" amount of time (mobs that are attacked will be immune to the spell effect for a short period of time and wake up to attack whatever may have attacked them), Wickerbottom will be stuck in the book casting animation for the duration of the spell, the spell is canceled if Wickerbottom is attacked, moves or gets to 0 sanity. Wicker's sanity is drained for as long as the spell is being cast.(So Wicker can keep asleep mobs that would wake up if one of its horde is attacked such as beefalos, hounds, etc. At the cost of herself not being able to move for the duration. This is more of a multiplayer use but she could also take advantage of this by using bunnies or pigs for example)
The End is Nigh!: Cast a spell in an area to make a concentrated meteor shower. The spell would last for as long as she does not move, get attacked or gets to 0 sanity (so just like Sleepytime Stories, the sanity drain could be greater though). (I could see this being useful early on as a way to get some moon rocks and overall as a ranged area attack) 
Applied Horticulture: Cast a spell in an area to make plants grow instantly (add lureplants to the pool) even during winter, plants in the area will be healed from disease and become immune to it. If Wormwood is in the area he gets the bloom effect for X days. (Maybe make so this needs full sanity to be used and drains the whole sanity?)

One of the ways I could think of to differentiate the uses would be having to equip the book to use it just like in the forge, to use the new effects you have to select an area (again, just like in the forge) and to use the old ones you have to right click Wickerbottom. (Make so Maxwell cannot equip books so he can only use the old effects?)

- If you change off Wickerbottom through the upgraded portal you will have to complete the prerequisites all over again to be able to use the new book effects.

Depending on how hard it is to make the books, Wickerbottom could have some other perks to use while she doesn't has access to the books such as:
- Warning a day before hounds or giants attack.
- Warning one minute before a rain/earthquake happens (in the case of rain, warning one minute before it stops too).
- If Wickerbottom examines a lava pool, the AG chest, the remaining of the bee queen hive, the atrium portal, etc. She could say exactly how much time is left before those bosses are available to be attacked again.

The idea here is making her more of a late game character. Personally, I don't mind her being powerful, but I'd like having to "conquer" those powers before being able to use them.

Also, I think it would be cool having new books that you need to go to the Ancient Pseudoscience Station or the Celestial Altar to craft.

[ShadowDuelist]

I don't think we should be too hard on her penalties, since most other characters are getting better now. Also I've found myself as Wicker many times after a certain point in the game just sleeping creatures, and overcharging WX. She's great to rush many things, specially early on, but for long live worlds she eventually becomes just one more.

It's no longer mandatory to have at least a wicker on the team to do everything faster. Also she's one of the few characters that doesn't synergize with herself: if another Wicker is on the team, the team doesn't get benefits from it. its better to have a Maxwell if you want someone else reading.

CONS:

• Give her a 125 HP pool. It's slightly less than the average character given that she's an old lady, but not as frail as maxwell.
• Make her spoiled food debuff stronger, basically making "yellow spoilage" food useless for her (give nothing), and "red spoilage" food actually substract hunger, health and sanity to her.

Rework Buffs: 

• Give her more books to further expand her magic repertoire. Specially team-oriented books, sort of like the end is nigh and WX synergy.

 

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, Pruinae said:

Here's what I have:
- Wickerbottom needs to have the sanity the book requires before being able to use it. (So that also means that she cannot use books while at 0 sanity, may need some changes to how much sanity each book drains)

- The books have unlimited durability but are more expensive to craft and Wickerbottom also has to complete some prerequisites before unlocking the recipes:
Birds of the World: Examine every/almost every type of bird.
On Tentacles: Kill a big tentacle and examine the item "Tentacle Spots" (too easy).
Sleepytime Stories: Examine X different mobs while they are asleep.
The End is Nigh!: Don't die after getting struck by lightning (may be too easy with something like the Telelocator Staff, but those are just ideas).
Applied Horticulture: Be nearby X different plants during their "growing" animation.

- Without removing the previous uses the books had, they have new effects:
Birds of the World: Cast a spell in an area, birds come to the players in the area and make them fly (the duration of the buff could be seen by the amount of birds left carrying the player around), this make so said player gets a walking cane speed boost and can go over water (maybe over the cave void too?). While in this state the affected players cannot do actions such as chopping, mining, etc. Players may dismiss the birds so the buff ends sooner. This buff does not works with Woodie. The amount of sanity lost could be based in how many players were affected.
On Tentacles: Cast a spell in an area to temporarily pacify tentacles, if a big tentacle is in the area it will retreat into its hole (without dropping the loot?).
Sleepytime Stories: Cast a spell in an area, mobs in the area will fall asleep for an "undetermined" amount of time (mobs that are attacked will be immune to the spell effect for a short period of time and wake up to attack whatever may have attacked them), Wickerbottom will be stuck in the book casting animation for the duration of the spell, the spell is canceled if Wickerbottom is attacked, moves or gets to 0 sanity. Wicker's sanity is drained for as long as the spell is being cast.(So Wicker can keep asleep mobs that would wake up if one of its horde is attacked such as beefalos, hounds, etc. At the cost of herself not being able to move for the duration. This is more of a multiplayer use but she could also take advantage of this by using bunnies or pigs for example)
The End is Nigh!: Cast a spell in an area to make a concentrated meteor shower. The spell would last for as long as she does not move, get attacked or gets to 0 sanity (so just like Sleepytime Stories, the sanity drain could be greater though). (I could see this being useful early on as a way to get some moon rocks and overall as a ranged area attack) 
Applied Horticulture: Cast a spell in an area to make plants grow instantly (add lureplants to the pool) even during winter, plants in the area will be healed from disease and become immune to it. If Wormwood is in the area he gets the bloom effect for X days. (Maybe make so this needs full sanity to be used and drains the whole sanity?)

One of the ways I could think of to differentiate the uses would be having to equip the book to use it just like in the forge, to use the new effects you have to select an area (again, just like in the forge) and to use the old ones you have to right click Wickerbottom. (Make so Maxwell cannot equip books so he can only use the old effects?)

- If you change off Wickerbottom through the upgraded portal you will have to complete the prerequisites all over again to be able to use the new book effects.

Depending on how hard it is to make the books, Wickerbottom could have some other perks to use while she doesn't has access to the books such as:
- Warning a day before hounds or giants attack.
- Warning one minute before a rain/earthquake happens (in the case of rain, warning one minute before it stops too).
- If Wickerbottom examines a lava pool, the AG chest, the remaining of the bee queen hive, the atrium portal, etc. She could say exactly how much time is left before those bosses are available to be attacked again.

The idea here is making her more of a late game character. Personally, I don't mind her being powerful, but I'd like having to "conquer" those powers before being able to use them.

Also, I think it would be cool having new books that you need to go to the Ancient Pseudoscience Station or the Celestial Altar to craft.

I don't want her to be locked behind sanity before being able to cast book, she uses like 33-50 sanity per cast, now calculate how much it would take to cast 10 on tentacles books that you usually need for the setup.

We want to go insane when we play Wicker with  books because we can cast them without limit while insane and also can farm nightmare fuel.

I wouldn't mind if they made books harder to craft require specific things to be done but it would suck considering depending on the situation i change characters with the portal, i use WX for exploring caves for example.

New books would actually make her even more OP, do you know why she is currently strong? Versatility, she just has so many specific situations she can be good at.

Lichen farming, Krampus sack/feather farming, On tentacles allow her to kill bee queen and dragonfly which i am fine with considering bee queen was designed as a boss to take on as a team, i don't like when klei makes bosses like that considering i mostly kill bosses solo. Don't forget that this requires a big investment on tentacles books, yes it is easier  compared to other characters and especially good on laggy servers as you won't be able to do it in any other way except tentacles or winona's catapults.

Don't take me as if i am solely complaining without killing bee queen solo, i can with Wolfgang, pretty fast actually but requires pan flutes if i don't want to spend countless resources on it which makes no sense in doing when i can just pick Wickerbottom or Winona and just build the trap that can be used for multiple kills. What i dislike is how it is really hard to kill bee queen but not in a good way as she keeps summoning bees and her honey slows you down, really annoying for a solo player.

Don't forget the ability to power up WX, makes these two such a great combo.

Applied Horticulture can also be used on massive berry bush field.

Sleepytime stories are good replacement for pan flute even though pan flute is permanent with deconstruction staff but it requires to farm for it while this book is much easier to obtain.

There's probably more that i can't think on top of my head. The more books they add the stronger she is, no matter what kind of nerf she gets i am sure her books will still be able to do the same with maybe some additions, they wouldn't destroy her playstyle that was kept over such a long time and what made her as a character.

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t think any characters need nerfed, they all seem fine to play as.. but then again I don’t engage in PvP combat either so I wouldn’t know.. I think what needs to happen is ALL characters get refreshed to be more interesting and fun to play as with distinct play styles that greatly separate themselves apart from one another (example: playing as Woodie shouldn’t feel the same as Playing Wormwood.. it doesn’t- but it’s just an example.)

 

as for Wickerbottom she’s a librarian right?? So shouldn’t she be an expert in Silent assassination? (Being able to sneak up on Birds and murder them without them flying away etc..)

she needs some new books with some new abilities, every librarian has read Sleeping Beauty & Alice in Wonderland... so IDK maybe allow her to “Befriend” Rabbit people through book reading? 

 

She seems to be a complicated character to Rework and make fun but I am certain that Klei will nail it in all the right spots (Woodies Rework didn’t go over well.. but that’s okay because community feedback & a patch later- he’s getting some fixes!)