Rail thermal calculation error in your favor, collect 200 DTUs

[Blazing Falken]

***EDIT NOTE: The thermal stack bug is present anytime you split a stack, it's not just for rails.

 

SO! There is a bug where the stack that is loaded into a conveyor that calculates the heat of the last packet as if it contained the original full mass of the stack.

Preheated pills to 135.5c and 135.6c.  The first packets in the conveyor are converted to 19.9c and the last retains the original temperature.

The first, middle, and last 20kg pill packets and the control 100kg stack are encased in 99,999kg of 326.9c of copper ore.

Temps of various points. The fun begins!

Who will win the race?

Now it's time to unearth the control pill stack. Surely they can't be the same temperature while having 5 times the mass, right?

That would be a big fat 100kg yes.

[BLACKBERREST3]

I'm trying to rack my brain for practicality. If you wanted even more efficiency out of the chill pill, you'd have to do a shutoff-filter to separate the hot from the not while also precisely controlling the timing and flow of the rails.

Spoiler

Not sure if I should add this under heat transfer or building interactions.

 

[Blazing Falken]

It probably falls under heat transfer better than interactions, in my opinion.

 

I think why the fridge helps in my builds, it acts as a reset before the rail loader so that all packets are outbound at 20c regardless of returning packet temps. Not much if any efficiency to be gained for a whole mess of automation (vs. none at all). Using this method to efficiently create heat might be more involved.

Practicality? It's basically temporarily altering the SHC so this could be used to both heat or cool more efficiently when applied properly.

I am working on a useful heating build as we speak. I'm not sure how long it'll take till I'm satisfied with it but as usual, will post when ready.

[BLACKBERREST3]

sounds good 

[Blazing Falken]

I need to refine it and make a new post later, but it's absolutely working flawlessly.

Self-powering, power-positive, self-cooling, and cooling-positive. What more could you ask for?

Spoiler

Battery bank on bottom right is for excess power and is isolated by transformer. Aquatuner cools turbine and a big pool of water off-screen.

To steal a line from Brothgar:  "SORRY KLEI, I BROKE YOUR GAME AGAIN"

[beowulf2010]

20 minutes ago, Blazing Falken said:

To steal a line from Brothgar:  "SORRY KLEI, I BROKE YOUR GAME AGAIN"

As opposed to @mathmanicanand @Saturnuswho aren't sorry at all when they break the game. 

[wachunga]

I think this is a bug with debris in general. A debris pile doesn't seem to update it's thermal mass after part of the pile has been removed. I've noticed this with ice debris. Typically I'll make a simple ice melter setup by having a bunch of compactors for small amounts of ice in a tank of water. Periodically I'll gather a bunch of ice into a large debris pile that gets swept into the compactors. The small amounts in the compactors melt quickly and dupes refill the compactors. The main debris pile melts as if it had it's original mass even when it's down to almost nothing. A picture may explain better.

Started with 200 kg of ice debris. 50 kg went to the center compactor, 100 kg to the right compactor, and 50 kg left on the floor. After a few moments, the difference in temp of the 100 kg compactor ice was half that of the 50 kg compactor ice, as expected. However, the difference in temp of the 50 kg floor ice was one fourth that of the 50 kg compactor ice, as if the floor ice was still 200 kg.

I haven't bothered testing other types of debris piles but there is potentially a huge exploit here. Given the other debris bugs, debris is very poorly implemented and super janky.

[ZanthraSW]

Is the incorrect thermal mass preserved across save/load?

[Blazing Falken]

3 minutes ago, ZanthraSW said:

Is the incorrect thermal mass preserved across save/load?

I'm not sure yet, but even so, the thermal energy in the stack isn't infinite and will have to be recharged periodically. I'll check later if nobody else does.

23 minutes ago, wachunga said:

I think this is a bug with debris in general. A debris pile doesn't seem to update it's thermal mass after part of the pile has been removed.

Yeah, it does make sense that they'd both share the same root bug. I'll have to see if I can rework my design to ditch the long rail chain if it works out as effectively.

[bzgzd]

3 hours ago, wachunga said:

I think this is a bug with debris in general.

I believe there is no specific debris handling in code so this seems to be bug with splitting stacks in general. That means also stuff that is in containers is affected.

I put 3100kg hot gold into one container inside cold water. That made it one stack and then I moved 1000kg into one, 2000kg into another, and left just 100kg in original storage.

100kg was loosing temperature slowest at speed of 3100kg. Moving that 100kg into another container fixed it to correct 100kg behavior.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Blazing Falken]

Storage containers transfer heat with the tile they sit on, so you may want to use a metal tile instead.

Without knowing the tile temperatures and keeping them separated via vacuum or other method, there may be other variables at work.

 

Also, for the sake of discussion, debris and stack are basically interchangeable.

 

Edit: I just tested, and yes, correct. Confirmed that the split stack retains the original thermal calculations.  I used 4000kg split into 1kg, 3998kg, and a 1kg storage in vacuum on aluminum tile and the original 1kg conducted at basically same rate as the 3998kg, while the last 1kg changed rapidly.

 

Cat's outta the bag, let's get to work abusing this.

[wachunga]

Just did a brief "calorimeter" test and can confirm that splitting debris/stacks generates effectively infinite heating or cooling. Limited only by how many times you split. Start with 100kg of hot diamond, put 99kg of that somewhere else. You now have 199kg of hot diamond heat energy. Pull 98kg out of the second pile and put somewhere else. You now have 297kg of hot diamond heat energy. Repeat ad nauseam.

The challenge now is engineering a system to do so. The usual suspects should have a blast with this.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Blazing Falken said:

let's get to work abusing this.

So we load a compactor with 25t hot igneous. Then move it all but 1kg to another. Then repeat 100 times..... Suddenly we have a 2500t 1300c heat source. Pop a little gold on the floor to extract the heat.....

Or make 25t -40c ice. Repeat the 100 compactor game. 

 

@klei could we please get a fix for this......

[Blazing Falken]

1 minute ago, mathmanican said:

So we load a compactor with 25t hot igneous. Then move it all but 1kg to another. Then repeat 100 times..... Suddenly we have a 2500t 1300c heat source. Pop a little gold on the floor to extract the heat.....

Or make 25t -40c ice. Repeat the 100 compactor game. 

 

Yes. Our thermal woes are effectively demolished, both hot and cold.

I'm already at work on a new setup.. this stuff is bonkers.

[mathmanican]

Just now, Blazing Falken said:

I'm already at work on a new setup.. this stuff is bonkers.

Looking forward to your monstrosity.

Monopoly themed titles?

[Nitroturtle]

Imagine coming in to work on Monday and finding this thread. 

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Blazing Falken said:

Yes. Our thermal woes are effectively demolished, both hot and cold.

I wonder if this works on bottles of liquid. Gonna have to help the devs find out.

[bobucles]

8 hours ago, mathmanican said:

I wonder if this works on bottles of liquid.

Be careful, mopping up spills will likely be different than pumping water.

[BLACKBERREST3]

So now the storage bin is useful again, solid fuel thrusters are useful again. What's next, the ore scrubber for infinite power, oxygen, and food.