Szczuku

[Important] Does Don't Starve need some sort of progression system for survival difficulty?

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maciu67    405
7 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

3) Snowstorms could be added to winter, creating a similar effect to flooding from Shipwrecked but with snow instead.

Weather effects at different seasons:

 

Autumn

Storm - occurs once or twice during autumn (but never during the first fall). During a storm appears:

  • Strong rain
  • Very frequent lightning (comparable to the hurricane season with DSS)
  • Strong wind (similar to DSS)

The storm lasts from 0,5 to 1 day.

 

Winter

Snow storm - occurs maximum once during the winter and is characterized by:

  • Snow blizzard, which limits the view of the character to a small field and also slows the character by 60% (similar to a sandstorm)
  • Faster freezing of characters

The snow storm lasts for 2 to 3 days. To minimize the effect of slowing down to 10%, stay close to a light source such as a bonfire or equip yourself with a light source e.g. torch, Willow’s lighter, miner hat, etc.

 

Spring:

Puddles - appear two days after the first day of spring and dry up after the 2nd day of summer. The puddles themselves are much smaller than during the monsoon season in DSS but they have identical operation:

A character who stands on a puddle wets very quickly

If the puddle reaches some structures, they are broken until it disappears. Structures which can be damaged:

  • Science Machine
  • Alchemy Engine
  • Ice Box
  • Portable Grinding Mill
  • Portable Seasoning Station
  • Think Tank
  • Winona’s Generator
  • Winona’s G.E.M.erator
  • Winona’s Spotlight
  • Winona’s Catapult
  • Rainometer
  • Thermal Measurer
  • Ice Flingomatic
  • Mushlight
  • Glowcap

The pot and the portable pot still work but cook food three times longer

If a puddle reaches a camfire or an endothermic campfire, it immediately extinguishes them. Player can't place these campfires in a flooded area. Fire Pit and Endothermic Fire Pit are waterproof. Willow can put any campfire on a puddle and it is no different from a campfire on an dry turf.

 

Summer:
Hailstorm - it occur once, twice or three times during summer. Then hail fall from the sky, which if they hit the character it loses 2 health points. Houndius Shootius protects players from hail within range. Hail melts 0.5 days and can be turned into ice:

 

Squall:

The squall occurs once during each season except the summer. In autumn during a storm, in winter during a snowstorm or randomly in spring. The storm is characterized by a rough sea (visual effect). The boat then receives 3 points of damage for 5 seconds if any character is standing on the boat, 1 point of damage for 10 seconds if the boat is empty and is not more than two diameters of the boat from the shore or 20 points of damage for 3 seconds if it is further away and is empty. The character always informs about the approaching squall, it is also preceded by three short gusts of wind. Both squall and hailstorm make impossible to build "bridges" using boats, between the arms of the island or the island and the lunar island.

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Szczuku    9,232
14 minutes ago, Owlrus98 said:

(snip) 

In witch part of my original post did I say something like "Make the game harder cuz I'm too good at it"

I critisized the way Klei's been handling new content for the past 2 years: Every new content is optional and doesn't matter for the survival aspect of the game. For example you don't need to beat Fuelweaver or Toadstoal at all, they don't provide anything usefull. Or content that feeds into itself as @Zeklo said in another thread "Sail the ocean so that you can sail the ocean better"

And about that "Mechanicaly it has to make sense"- Well examples I've provided make sense: You launched a boat so now aquatic turtles Begin spawning near the shoars. You've visted to Lunar Islands so now Full Moons are more interesting

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Cyberboy2000    659
1 hour ago, Ogrecakes said:

2) Toadstool could plague the overworld on second autumn, spreading disease, maybe causing acid rain if he isn't dealt with.

Problem with this is not every world has caves.

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Crimson Chin    473
1 hour ago, Owlrus98 said:

Mechanically it would have to make sense. Why does the world suddenly give you different shadow creatures?; why does the rain turn to acid rain and hurt you?; and why are things suddenly more difficult? Those are things that need transitory states that fit well in the world of don't starve in order to enhance the experience while also giving reasons for the sudden changes, but would be a welcome one in the end. 

This is very easy to do. The devs completely control the story and could technically say this is canon whenever about whatever. Besides, do the current updates make any sense whatsoever? Why did a giant  chunk of the moon randomly fall down onto the constant and turn its water from cardboard to... real water? Why are new survivors just randomly appearing or old ones changing? It already doesn't make sense. Like I proposed in another thread, how about this meteor falls when a certain world event is completed, one that would actually makes some sense. I am assuming the meteor was caused by Them... so maybe this world event would be something you have to do to that would get Them to notice you. The world would start off with the classic cardboard ocean until the meteor falls from completing this event and causing the ocean to become traversable and the lunar island to appear. Of course making that happen would require there to be major changes to the lunar island since it right now is just optional fluff that there are much better alternatives to, like why would I make a glass cutter when I could use a dark sword.

Anyways, the ideas people had with the atrium portal releasing forge/gorge mechanics could easily make sense since... well its a portal. Reminder that Mumsy literally said she would follow us through the portal. 

Another thing is wouldn't "Them" want to make it harder for the survivors as they go? Don't they want to see them fail? That would easily explain new enemies and old enemies learning new attacks.

1 hour ago, Owlrus98 said:

The other problem comes from newcomers. While I understand that the focus on newcomers are what's upsetting veteran players as of late due to game mechanics not posing a challenge to them thus not making the long-term game interesting, you have to see it from a company perspective. Klei definitely appreciates the long standing player base that has been around for awhile giving advice on the game forums, however from a business standpoint tailoring to both sides of the coin is what will make them more money in the end; they want more players to buy their game and the skins that go with it, but they want veteran players to enhance the game by giving educated input like these threads to improve said product while also selling to them. In short, it's very unlikely they will pick and choose one side over the other in the end as they have too much to lose by doing so (kinda like asking a parent to choose favorites). Increase the difficulty, you drive away less-experienced players, decrease the difficulty, you'll upset the ones that have given their all to the game and then some.  

Again I will state why I believe the way they are focusing on newcomers is ineffective. The game is already the cruelest to them, it is very much so just trial and error.... But when those new players do learn everything there is to learn, what's next? They are in the same boat as us, then they probably lose interest since the content being added... offers nothing to them. It is such an unhealthy way to try and keep a game alive, very confusing to me. Is turning your back entirely on your most loyal players REALLY the best choice here?

And again, we are all making assumptions here, including you. Klei never flat out stated "hey we are focusing on new players only now sorry" or "we want to satisfy new and old players", they just are focusing on new players, intentional or not. 

Again with this "if you increase the difficulty new players wil get scared away", well one, the game is already incredibly cruel to new players, and two with the options we are proposing here this would ALL be up to the player to advance onwards in the game, when they feel like they are ready to go the next step they would be able to. If you also take our proposition of new scaling gear/new mechanics as you advance, the player would also get new tools to deal with the harsher world. It just doesn't get more difficult, it also becomes more rewarding. This gives you a reason to want to advance, not just because it gets harder.

Like many have said, the current optional content we get is just entirely filler. It adds nothing to the game, but just fills it with this weird... incomplete feeling kind of fluff. It is just more of the same. I don't really see why new players would be going crazy for it either.

1 hour ago, Owlrus98 said:

Klei likely wants compromises between both sides that will benefit everyone in the end. For example, having an optional player-controlled event that is available after a certain day that ramps up the difficulty of the game while increasing the rewards would benefit veteran players while also not hindering newer ones by forcing them to adhere to said challenges without them choosing to do so (shadow pieces/ancient fuelweaver come to mind as an example). If people want changes for the game on a larger scale, they will have to appeal to the grand scheme of Klei themselves with ideas that benefit all parties involved as they are more likely to implement such in order to make the game grander and better for everyone. 

Again, we have no idea what Klei wants right now. It would definitely be lovely to hear what their current mindset is. The fuelweaver is definitely one of the better  things added, but it doesn't  change the world at all. Wouldn't it make sense that once the fuelweaver was defeated the atrium portal would open releasing gorge/forge mechanics/biomes/enemies/etc. The fuelweavers death would definitely be an example of a world changing event in this hypothetical progression system.

The game just so desperately needs some form of progression, anything at all. I believe it is very unhealthy right now, and I would like to know... is this working? To me, none of this sounds like it should, but Klei continues to do it so maybe I am wrong.

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Butt Pillow    196

I very much love random events, so all of these ideas sound quite cool. To be quite honest I am still a relatively new player all things considered (largely held back by the fact my internet can't handle the caves...), but one of the major charm points for this game is just how exciting it is to find random things out in the game world. I love finding skeletons and whatever items they may have, set pieces I can play around, etc. I would love if they expanded this aspect of the game with 'randomness' you could trigger such as doing things like this.

It being hard but something optional sounds best, but I'd love random options as well. I would like more set pieces that can be triggered to be added more than anything.

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Seero    786
On 9/14/2019 at 12:15 PM, Pop Guy said:

I like that new events are triggered.
However, every "year" in the game (the passage of all four seasons) should be an increase in difficulty.
Example: after two years two giants arrive each season. Or, in the hordes of dogs, Vargs begin to arrive. Maybe after three years the winter becomes progressively colder or the warmer summer (forcing you to use better protections). Maybe you could experience years of famine (where almost all the vegetable food is dry in the world, even if it's not summer), or glaciations, where the world becomes an inhospitable and desert icy land. In short, even wisely recycling the elements already present in the game could offer a lot of challenge and variety to veteran players, I still do not understand what the difficulties for Klei implementing ideas that are, substantially, a "shuffling" of objects or functions already included in the game.

That seems a bit extreme, and would kill the end game.

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CaptainChaotica    4,362

Hmmm...there's a lot of ideas in this thread, so I'll try to just sum up my main thoughts:

1.  The problem with extra bosses being thrown in your face is that they get thrown in EVERYONE'S face!  You don't like them being optional?  Well too bad, because that would actively mess up the game for new people in favour of veterans.  They do EXIST, and you can find and get to them pretty easily if you're practiced.  Optional but existing means EVERYONE can enjoy!  Non-optional means goodbye newbies.

Perhaps this could be ameliorated a bit by making their drops _really_ cool?  Like, not something you absolutely NEED to survive (they're a hair too lategame for that) but something really useful _and_ badass-LOOKING, so that more people would want said drops and go searching for stuff like the Toadstool or Fuelweaver on purpose?  Then of course you run into the problem of power creep and the new drops being OP, but...this isn't gonna be perfect. I'd much prefer "You don't HAVE to do this, but..." (waves shiny thing in face) "you know you WANT to...!" over "Hey player who just barely made it to their first winter!  You liked Deerclops?  Good.  Here's ANOTHER boss right at your base, enjoy."

EDIT:  Also, bear in mind..._not everybody plays in groups_, and that's what most bosses require, unless you're MLG PRO.  Putting extra-hard, endgame bosses right in everyone's face regardless of how many people are even there...?

2.  I'm not sure about things being triggered by "someone" doing a certain thing.  On public servers especially you get a wide variety of skill levels and people tend to wander around doing whatever (well, those that don't stay at base all day eating all your stuff, anyway).  My point is, it's not really possible to keep track of what every individual player is doing and yell "NO STOP DON'T!" in time, so it's quite likely that somebody will trigger something WAY TOO EARLY.   I feel this has potential to be the same problem as the season traps, and Klei removed those from DST in 2016.

AAAAAND, there's always griefers. Someone will definitely sail into the wrong part of the ocean or whatever on purpose.  Maybe it should be something a hair more specific and deliberate that triggers new difficulties, is what I'm getting at.

Also the spooky scary skeleton pirates should totally appear in FALL, (Halloween, yo!) not spring.  Doy!  : P  But seriously this might be nice for people who want a little more danger in fall.  Spring is already kinda chaos.

3.  I like the idea of storms and whatnot, temporary more difficult parts of seasons, but...

--Please dear god no to the lunar stuff showing up on the mainland during the Full Moon.  I'm staying away from that island during the full moon BECAUSE it's the only place those gross horror hounds spawn!

--Puddles during spring...that BREAK things?!  Dude!  Even in Shipwrecked, hurricane season doesn't outright disable your science machine!  You seem to be thinking of the appearance of a puddle in the base the same way as the appearance of an Antlion _sinkhole_ in the base, but...that's actual damage to the ground.  This is a PUDDLE.

--The problem with blizzards is still what it has always been:  It sounds like the cold version of a WORLDWIDE, _in_escapeable, sandstorm, so...HOUNDS!!  What if hounds?!  You can deliberately avoid that desert during the summer, but if the slowdown is all over the world...what?  You're just dead!  You're dead.  Unless you live in the caves maybe, but not all of us want to do that.  Armour doesn't work for that long, later hound waves are BIG, and with even a 10 percent slowdown only you can't kite effectively anymore.  You daed.  On the ground.  Skeleton.  I got caught out exploring the Antlion's desert without any goggle recipe yet on a summer doggy night, and can confirm.  I died SO fast.

Maybe a blizzard that does, like, cold and visibility problems but not slowdown effect?  Is this realistic, considering in real life you'd be trudging through deeper snow? (I've lived in the Midwest, I KNOW blizzards.)  Nope.  Is it game-mechanic-friendly?  Yes.

4.  I'm all for the idea of taking these concepts, bundling them all (or whichever ones the thread can agree on) into one thing, and turning them into an OPTIONAL preset at the beginning of the game, that you can _choose_.  I'm ALWAYS down with this idea.  Those who want the newer bosses, seasonal difficulties, etc. can have a whole new preset just called "Hard Mode", on the same list with Dark Mode.  And those who don't, can play the game the way it is now.   It's a win-win situation.

(and if anyone STILL insists on things being non-optional, even with a Hard Mode preset existing...tough, this is a survival/sandbox game NOT! A COMBAT! GAME!  Hard fights should not be _forced_ on everyone...and we have at least two bosses who appear in your face already!  You HAVE your expert-level bosses.  Go fight them.  You might have to travel some, but that's not a big deal.  Better a bit of a walk for some, than an unhappy/not-played-at-all game for many.  True, Hardmode will only be enabled on some worlds, so you might have to make your own server, or play with other veteran friends instead of going on publics.  But at least Hardmode would _exist_--and not as just a mod.)

Personally, speaking of worldgen/game settings, I'd MUCH rather have Klei work on _finally_ tweaking the amounts that "more" and "less" change, from the ridiculously off amounts they do now, rather than reworking EVERY SINGLE LAST CHARACTER, even the ones that don't need it.  I really think the revamps should stop at only the characters that were _really_ flawed.  While the worldgen settings have had the SAME problems since, what, 2013...? Change just to change isn't always good, but some things have needed a tune-up for a good long while.

...Notorious

Edited by CaptainChaotica
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Crimson Chin    473
56 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

1.  The problem with extra bosses being thrown in your face is that they get thrown in EVERYONE'S face!  You don't like them being optional?  Well too bad, because that would actively mess up the game for new people in favour of veterans.  They do EXIST, and you can find and get to them pretty easily if you're practiced.  Optional but existing means EVERYONE can enjoy!  Non-optional means goodbye newbies.

 I think its worth pointing out again that hounds, seasonal bosses and well...seasons are unavoidable. The game was designed to be cruel and unforgiving, problem is it just loses that entirely when you play for a few times. So I don't think its true that non-optional content means "goodbye newbies". AND AGAIN, Klei has never stated anywhere that they are actually focusing on new players, they just are, intentional or not.

That aside, the content most people here are advocating for would BE OPTIONAL, but would also be heavily encouraged as the world would progress, getting more challenging, but also more rewarding. I really think a lot of people are overreacting to some of these proposed ideas as if we want the game to be hard as nails to the point of being unfun, but that's not the case. DST isn't engaging right now, these changes would help with that greatly.

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Atkvin    558

Autumn, Year 2+:

  • Spiders lay piles of leaves around the center of the den, alerting a full platoon of spiders to march out when anything steps on and ruffles the leaves
  • Pigs try to punch down trees to rebuild their houses (after possibly losing it to player/summer fires) if theirs has been destroyed during daytime
  • Treeguards may appear in hordes to ambush players
  • Plants may sometimes cease production from the seasons earlier
  • Piles of leaves containing miscellaneous items will appear all over the world (to grant resources to new players), and if uncleared will spawn Depth Dwellers near the end of the season. Catcoons may play in them
  • Year 3+, Bearger may play dead before truly dying to lure players in before using a parting slam attack and running off to retreat and heal, leaving leaf/dirt piles to chase after it or it will despawn and respawn again later

Winter, Year 2+:

  • Spiders will spawn with scarves made of silk to protect themselves from the temperatures and drop extra silk in addition to drops - however, all spiders will thus additionally scavenge silk left on the ground and bring back to the colony to supply these scarves, and aggro onto anything passing by to scavenge scarce food in winter
  • Pigs will only come out of their houses in the first half of the season and will be willing to share houses to shelter stray pigs from the weather at any time
  • Mactusks will spawn with 1 sleeping dart they can use to dart enemies, and their Juniors will join in using darts Year 3+
  • Pengulls will crack open nearby icicles to eat the ice themselves
  • Snowstorms may occur that impede movement in daytime and cause a sandstorm effect at night. Base structures will be snowed in and will need to be uncovered with a shovel to regain function
  • Deerclops has a new gust attack that puts out fires, disarms players and blows items on the ground away like a DS wind while decreasing player temperature + a new charge attack that will drop its antlers if it slams into an obstacle
Edited by Atkvin
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Szczuku    9,232
2 hours ago, Crimson Chin said:

(snip)

Geez finally someone gets itd

Idk why some people want the game to stay the way it is now

Also...

I wouldn't want progression system to be based around years survived, but rather on specific task the player completed

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Datanon    238

really awesome ideas in this thread. i thought i was the only one thinking that hound waves only downgraded to just being a nuisance (or game experience check) after a certain point in the game, and i absolutely agree that you need permanent changes throughout the game after finishing some milestones, but we need them to be engaging (and you know, fun), which can be difficult to achieve

On 14/09/2019 at 3:53 PM, Sunset Skye said:

Hound attacks are a part of the game that is not fun and is not challenging once you understand how it works, it's just an annoyance. It's probably the worst example you could give of "difficulty" increasing over time.

that one goes to either disease or petrification

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seyfitoplar    354

I think new age will begin when all the reworks done. It's like they're preparing characters for something. At least i want to think of that.

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maciu67    405
9 hours ago, seyfitoplar said:

I think new age will begin when all the reworks done. It's like they're preparing characters for something. At least i want to think of that.

Recently I had a very unpleasant thought. What if when all the characters are already refreshed and the update "Return of Them" is completed Klei will abandon Don't Starve?

Back to the topic. Klei avoid adding mechanics which can change gameplay severely. Lunar Island, Seafaring, Salt, Malbatross are optional.

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