Fridges magically making items "Revert" to 20 degrees.

[fragtzack]

 

Both you and the video maker should go back and correct the false statements in "guides" about fridges so as not to lead folks astray.

[ZanthraSW]

22 minutes ago, fragtzack said:

Hi Blazing,

 

 You are acting just like the video maker and ignoring the underlaying concern. The question is not about the build but the claim that "Fridges revert temperatures to 20 degrees". Please read a bit more carefully.  That claim about fridges is clearly inaccurate, so I wasted a lot of my time analyzing my game when the real problem was the video maker and now you now putting out false assumptions about the core underlaying mechanic allow this exploit? to work.

 

bzgzd and mathmanican are directly and accurately getting to the heart of the matter. That is some excellent follow up work bzgzd, thanks much for the deep dive.

 

Isaac Newton said: "If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants."

Please don't criticize those who do much for not having done what others later do based off of their work.

[BLACKBERREST3]

Even Einstein had misconceptions about our universe, but we still progress standing on top of the shoulders of giants.

[fragtzack]

That video maker just walks away and states "I am right" without even attempting to prove his points, prove his claims or anything of the sort.

Not very impressive video to be making false claims, certainly doesn't qualify for a giant or anything of that sort. More like plagiarism without even fully understanding what is being plagiarized. Lot of other high quality video makers out there in ONI land, folks that WILL engage in underlaying mechanics and not just redirect folks to a forum to get to the heart of their crappy video build. Video makers that have been known to go back and correct false assumptions and make improvements based on viewers concerns.

I have not regrets about criticizing this video maker, he was given every opportunity to directly  engage and to directly prove his false claims about fridges. He refused to even try. Yet, I re-installed the game and spent hours trying to duplicate his claim about fridges.

 Screw him and his low quality work, tis not worthy guides for any new ONI players.

 

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

hey buddy, we've all had one of those days. just a gut feeling, but this isn't really about the game or some youtuber getting information wrong. The community is happy to hear your input and answer your questions.

[bzgzd]

50 minutes ago, fragtzack said:

Both you and the video maker should go back and correct the false statements in "guides" about fridges so as not to lead folks astray.

Don't look at videos and forum posts as 100% always correct.
Game is changing and also people don't always get everything 100% right even when it might seem so at that moment.

You can do your own tests because you found out from video that there is some temperature bug happening and make your own "misleading" results.

Like you posted yesterday:

14 hours ago, fragtzack said:

The convey belt is indeed the key thing, not the fridge nor the loader. 3 things I discovered in testing:

1. Must be a 20KG packet. 2. Must be genetic ooze 3. Must be a conveyer belt

When probably in reality this bug is more fundamental and has nothing to do with conveyor belts.
Just dupe picking some wood from big pile of wood and same bug happens.

I usually put in stuff like "I think" or "I believe" or "probably" but that can be basically always there when you post something so not needed...

 

[ZanthraSW]

Plagiarism requires “representation of [the work] as one's own original work.” He was very clear in giving credit to those who deserved it.

Given that the mechanics behind this were better understood only after this thread was started, I can’t see that video as an intent to mislead.

I would think you should be pleased with having been part of refining the collective understanding of the mechanics, something that never would have come to pass without a certain video that you were interested enough in to try some of yourself.

[BLACKBERREST3]

1 hour ago, ZanthraSW said:

I would think you should be pleased with having been part of refining the collective understanding of the mechanics, something that never would have come to pass without a certain video that you were interested enough in to try some of yourself.

I second this, your questions were valid and helped out @fragtzack. This bug/exploit isn't game breaking, but could stand for a patch, it's pretty low on the list of priorities I would imagine. I could list quite a few QoL changes that Klei could make to the game, but then modders seem to fix these issues themselves. It's that grey area of who makes it first and how much work people want to put into these things. The roadmap ahead did say they were going to add dlc in the future. They are also working on their newest game, griftlands.

[fragtzack]

Not really concerned about identifying a bug, just wanted to learn an interesting new heat deletion mechanic. Sure it will get fixed eventually, 50/50 on caring if it stays or goes. Only reason I posted here at all is cause the video maker said to. He blamed my game and said he wouldn't engage. He loaded up his old build and the current game version said "it works" and then walked away from the issue. All of our communications are public domain on youtube in the comments of the video. I can be faulted for not clearly stating at the start what my concern was with fridges exactly because i said something like "this doesn't work, but at no point did I give off an attitude that I didn't want to engage, didn't have the time and frankly didn't care. All 3 of negative aspects this video maker clearly demonstrated in his posts in the comments of his own video.

Yes, I am new to ONI since August. Been watching a lot of vids. The high quality video makers :

1. Engage fully with concerns from viewers over their video "guides"

2. Understand and fully explain underlying mechanics

3. Go back and correct mistakes either in posts or by making a new video explaining their error in the previous guide.

IMO, the best vid makers that I have witnesses do all 3 of the above:

 

Brothgar

TonyAdvanced

SkyStorme

Francis John

While Brothgar is the best over all by far, special shout to TonyAdvanced on his guide videos. Very clear, very concise and covers all issues in the guides.

 

Einstein, great scientists, etc all had to go out there and defend their views and explain things at great lengths. That is called being a giant and providing great service to man kind. In the game world, that type of explaining and engaging is doing a great service to the gaming community.

What happened here is this so called "Giant" clearly said not my problem, come to these Klei forums to solve issue with your game. Which as we all know  now problem was not my  build, nor the Pill build, nor my game install, nor my mods(none). The problem was this maker could not explain his video core mechanics and more importantly didn't even ATTEMPT to try to explain his core mechanics.

To the original ChillPill 3000 maker, that is a great build dude and well done finding that issue and putting to good use. Didn't mean to slight you or even  the video maker until he walked away from the issue and said take your game problems to these forums. I didn't have a game problem and never did, only a problem with his claims about the fridge.

 

 

Due to the excellent work of some of the testers in this forum where we collectively got the root of the matter, went back and tested the original ChillPill 3000 video by removing the fridge in the design. In my tests, definitely works faster without the fridge because the gimmick that is deleting heat is the act of the loader chunking things up into 20KB packets.

Note, if you have less then 20K source  a chunk will not occur and the packet will not get set at 20 degrees. Also, discovered not all genetic ooze  work(i.e., no algae or slime), but definitely all the apothecary items and lumber do as I tested those. Here is the core improvement to chill pill (and the video build) since we now know the fridge is not doing anything. Might be better to put the chunking room into liquid like ChillPill3000 but really almost all the heat deletion is occurring when the convey loader chunks up into the 20KB packets where the source(loaded contents) > 20KB. So really didn't seem like the material of the room really mattered except to keep the sweeper and loader from over heat.

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

ah, my b.

If you want, you could check out some of these threads. I guarantee there are connections that haven't been made yet between the various bugs and exploits on temperature transfer I could find. It could even be a combination of two bugs interacting with each other. Also, it is strange that 20kg seems to be the magic number for invoking the default temp, it could be some unused properties they were trying to add like the 10% rule on pipes. I could be wrong.

Spoiler

 

 

 

1 hour ago, fragtzack said:

wanted to learn an interesting new heat deletion mechanic.

An idea I had was to combine metal cannon with lead molten metals to use as a coolant and then vent it into space. you could probably get a good amount of heat deletion this way assuming your heat signature is greater than the temperature to melt the metal. I need to rewatch some videos on volcano taming because I remember seeing a bug on temperature averaging with debris too. It was either francis john or lifegrow.

Spoiler

Aluminum 660.3

Gold 1063.85

Copper 1083.85

 

[bzgzd]

31 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

Also, it is strange that 20kg seems to be the magic number for invoking the default temp

There is no 20kg magic number.
Any new stack created from big stack has temperature reset. Like 1kg when picked by dupe to eat -> temperature reset.

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

Ah, ok. According to mathmanican, for containers you have to have a critical mass before it resets. I'm trying to keep track of all the ways a reset can happen.

[bzgzd]

22 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

Ah, ok. According to mathmanican, for containers you have to have a critical mass before it resets. I'm trying to keep track of all the ways a reset can happen.

Seems all to be just cause of the same very basic thing.
When dupe, or sweeper arm, or conveyor loader creates new chunk by splitting it from bigger chunk.

Bigger stack could be 2kg when something takes just 1kg from it...

It happens in almost everyone base every cycle.
Just watch temperature of food your dupes eat. (after picking from storage or taking it from bigger pile on the ground)

 

[Blazing Falken]

20kg is the magic number for the conveyor and loader, for obvious reasons. Anyway--

I went back and experimented more with the fridge and rails.

Things are starting to become more clear in regards to some rather odd behavior I observed in the past (mentioned in one of my chill-pill posts) which were camouflaged by the fridge > loader temp reset.

In a conveyor loaded rail, the first packets will be reset to 20c. The last packet will have slower temperature change. I'm guessing its temperature is calculated relative to the mass of the starting stack.

I had used a rail circuit that ran through 350c tiles and pre-heated the 100kg of pills to about 90c, dumped them on the ground, then fed them back into the loader (still showing 90c stored), then activated it. The first packets were, as expected, at 20c. The last, was at 90c. Upon entering the hot zone, they heated up faster than the last packet. Eventually after many circulations, the early packets were up to 130+c while the last only managed to make it to 110c or so. They were all the same 20kg size, fed from the same batch and untouched after introducing them to the rail circuit.

In less jumbled words: The last packet started off hotter, but the first 4 heated faster and exceeded the last packet.

I believe this miscalculation involving mass may multiply temperature change of a railed stack as it's acting upon, I assume, a calculated mass of 100kg plus the previous 80kg worth of packets. In other words: while on the rail, the temperatures are calculated as masses of 20kg, 20kg, 20kg, 20kg, and 100kg in that order.

Sorry for not posting pics or exact numbers. If I have more time later I might make a more scientific study and post, but I assure you this is not a one-off phenomenon.

 

 

[bzgzd]

1 hour ago, Blazing Falken said:

In other words: while on the rail, the temperatures are calculated as masses of 20kg, 20kg, 20kg, 20kg, and 100kg in that order.

This looks like another buggy behavior.
This one is related to conveyor rails. Not only with medical pills or wood or other things in that group.

 

I put 41kg igneus rock in loader and that last 1kg is heating up slower then first two 20kg so probably acts like 41kg. I didn't try what would happen when splitting those packets onto different rails or something like that.

 

[Blazing Falken]

I just got done testing and will create a post shortly after I patch together some screenshot pics.

Hypothesis 100% confirmed!

AAAAAAAAND posted.

[mathmanican]

16 minutes ago, Blazing Falken said:

will create a post

Christmas is early this year.