Pop Guy Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 Spoiler 1 minute ago, metallichydra said: how the forums look right now: "#FIXWOODIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantdeletethis Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberboy2000 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 hour ago, YouKnowWho said: How does Willow and Winona’s rework change how they’re played at all? As far as I’m concerned, they just got new stuff to play with, you can play them exactly as you did before. Woodie’s rework is the only one who’s changed the play style this much. Indeed, they are more subtle, which is why they haven't caused as much controversy. With Willow, it turned her from a fire-themed character to the de facto summoner. Not only does a giant bernie feel out of place when put side by side with the original characters, it's just rude to Wendy players. Winona wasn't as controversial because she didn't have much of an identity to begin with, first because she's a new character who never had a singleplayer version, and second because in gameplay she was basically Wilson. Regardless, people pointed out how her new gameplay just boiled down to crafting and placing turrets, rather than asking anything of the player. Anyway, the point is that people offered simple, effective solutions to these characters, and they were largely ignored (until after the updates were released at least) in favor of stylish, over the top, new forms and craftables. Rather than addressing the issues, they decided to cover them up. I always felt that way and I didn't mention it because it seemed like everyone else was happy with them, and I don't blame them for that. However now my suspicions have been confirmed. I really do appreciate that the new original characters are more complex and diverse, but I don't want that to be at the cost of the charm and creativity of the original cast. It makes me very sad as a Klei fan to say this, but I am genuinely worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, Cyberboy2000 said: [...] impeccable analysis, you have perfectly expressed my thoughts regarding the recent reworks. I think that in the case of similar discussions I will answer by quoting this yours comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electroely Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 42 minutes ago, Cyberboy2000 said: Indeed, they are more subtle, which is why they haven't caused as much controversy. With Willow, it turned her from a fire-themed character to the de facto summoner. Not only does a giant bernie feel out of place when put side by side with the original characters, it's just rude to Wendy players. Winona wasn't as controversial because she didn't have much of an identity to begin with, first because she's a new character who never had a singleplayer version, and second because in gameplay she was basically Wilson. Regardless, people pointed out how her new gameplay just boiled down to crafting and placing turrets, rather than asking anything of the player. Anyway, the point is that people offered simple, effective solutions to these characters, and they were largely ignored (until after the updates were released at least) in favor of stylish, over the top, new forms and craftables. Rather than addressing the issues, they decided to cover them up. I always felt that way and I didn't mention it because it seemed like everyone else was happy with them, and I don't blame them for that. However now my suspicions have been confirmed. I really do appreciate that the new original characters are more complex and diverse, but I don't want that to be at the cost of the charm and creativity of the original cast. It makes me very sad as a Klei fan to say this, but I am genuinely worried. I don't think Klei WANTS simple solutions. I feel that the point of character updates IS to add flashy new features to the character. Winona got a handful of structures with an entirely new mechanic (generator-powered machines) and a ranged AoE turret. Willow got a whole new mob to fight alongside her, complete with the ability to take all aggro off of her. Warly got a bunch of dishes with special effects when eaten (which could be considered a new mechanic if you think about it) and the ability to improve any dish he wants with spices. Woodie got 2 new transformations he can go into, both of which have entirely new music, art and animations. Updates like these are significantly more exciting than "make Werebeaver heal from wood" or "make Winona repair armor". There would've been a lot less hype for the Woodie rework if it was just something like: - Reduced sanity drain while in Werebeaver form - Eating wood now restores more werebeaverness than it used to - Eating living logs will now restore health and sanity - Werebeaver now has 75% damage absorption and 51 attack damage If anything, this would only be exciting to Woodie mains. It would take barely any work to do (it's literally just changing numbers.) and just come off to non-Woodie mains as lazy and uncreative. As I said, it wouldn't generate nearly as much hype as it did when Klei announced their changes. That being said, it's not like Klei ONLY wants to make flashy changes. There have been extra changes made for these reworked characters. Winona, for example, gained a downside which made her less comparable to Wilson in terms of gameplay. Willow gained fire immunity, extra efficiency for fueling fires and they removed her insanity freezing. Warly can no longer eat food that didn't come out of a crockpot (excluding event foods), giving his gameplay significantly more depth. He also did get some new dishes he can make alongside his special-effect dishes that don't do anything other than give stats. Even Woodie recieved changes similar to these. He no longer consumes wood to stay in human form when he doesn't want to become Werebeaver, his human form spawns Treeguards more often and his Werebeaver form spawns no treeguards. I think Klei does care for the actual gameplay. They also want to make exciting changes, though, so only listening to the community's suggestions when they talk about stat buffs wouldn't be the best thing for them. The negative feedback for Woodie's rework mostly comes from the fact that using the transformations is horribly inefficient (way too expensive for how long they last). I feel like a lot of people started complaining about their not getting their suggestions when they saw all this negative feedback, and started saying "he should've been this way!" without actually playing him. I've seen a lot inaccuracies in some of the posts on how Woodie should be changed: - Woodie drops his backpack when transforming - Transforming back from Weremoose always makes the player groggy - Werebeaver has a faster attack speed than a player - Weremoose and Werebeaver have the same exact transformation duration And I think that it just goes to show how little people actually played him post-rework before getting on the forums and complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberboy2000 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Electroely said: [...] We'll simply have to disagree then. Whether it's better with simple changes or complete redesigns is subjective. I will say though that I think it'd be better if the original characters were kept like they were and have the new characters be the subject of experimentation instead, that way fiascos like this could be avoided and you would never have to worry about people losing their favourite character. Like, Klei didn't even try to see if Woodie could be fixed with small changes before deciding that he should be recycled completely. I also disagree that redesigns is the best way to generate hype. If someone isn't too invested in the forums then they aren't going to know the difference between a small tweak and a redesign, and if they are, then they probably realise how much it matters to those that do play the character. The big part of hype for these updates I believe comes from the animated short and the in game promo. If you go into the youtube comments for the Woodie video you'll see that many people didn't even know that Woodie was being updated. Also notice how none of Willow's, Winona's, or Warly's shorts showcased the changes made to their gameplay. The idea that content updates have to be big, and exciting, and right on the first try, is the kind of thinking that lead to it now being almost one and a half year since the last tf2 content/balance update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 i feel like the hate is becoming abnormally stupid and you all need to learn how to code, try to code something original, animate it, fix any bugs, try to balance it, poste it then you can complain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberboy2000 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, thomas4845 said: i feel like the hate is becoming abnormally stupid and you all need to learn how to code, try to code something original, animate it, fix any bugs, try to balance it, poste it then you can complain Here you go: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198168515321/myworkshopfiles/?appid=243970&p=2 Joke aside, I am not hating on Klei. I am doing this out of genuine concern for the direction this game is being taken in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cyberboy2000 said: Joke aside, I am not hating on Klei. I am doing this out of genuine concern for the direction this game is being taken in. don't have the game and you posted mods for so i can't tell how any of it works and i'm only posting this because everyones acting like klei doesn't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario384 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I've already programmed plenty of mods that fix Woodie in the past. However, nobody wants to play with mods, since it makes the experience "unauthentic". Ergo, we need to get the issues fixed on the main game, and stop telling people to mod out their issues themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, thomas4845 said: i feel like the hate is becoming abnormally stupid and you all need to learn how to code, try to code something original, animate it, fix any bugs, try to balance it, poste it then you can complain No, you're wrong. You don't have to create a video game to be able to judge it, Just play with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 no it's just that everyone is ignorant that it takes time and effort and within a single day ONE DAY everyone is going mental and crapping all over their work, it's really grim personally i don't want this much hate to the devs and mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario384 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, thomas4845 said: no it's just that everyone is ignorant that it takes time and effort and within a single day ONE DAY everyone is going mental and crapping all over their work, it's really grim personally i don't want this much hate to the devs and mods We never said we hated anyone. We just said we don't like the update, and we want them to fix it. They're big boys and girls, this is what they get their paycheck for, they can take some consumer feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 you do make compelling points, ok fine ; just don't go too far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra_Zina Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, thomas4845 said: no it's just that everyone is ignorant that it takes time and effort and within a single day ONE DAY everyone is going mental and crapping all over their work, it's really grim personally i don't want this much hate to the devs and mods We paid for this product, so we have the rights to complain. Sorry if you can't handle that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Terra_Zina said: Sorry if you can't handle that. kinda a crude way of putting it but sure i see where you guys are coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeklo Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, thomas4845 said: no it's just that everyone is ignorant that it takes time and effort and within a single day ONE DAY everyone is going mental and crapping all over their work, it's really grim personally i don't want this much hate to the devs and mods Don't go folding just because your opinion is outnumbered. There is plenty of hate stirring around, and unfortunately it's pretty natural for human beings to assume they make the best judge compared to everyone else. Frankly, I think a lot of the dislike is stemming from "meta-viability". Surely not all the complaints, but a handful. Currently, I would say Woodie's rework has made them much much much more enjoyable. They simply add new fun mechanics and the like—the problem currently is the balancing to said new fun mechanics. Having to completely drain one's hunger for a minute of transformation is not a very realistic trade-off—people become more thrown off when you can accomplish better combat or speed specs with a different character that doesn't have such a drastic downside. I do agree about WIllow taking Wendy's role as summoner though. Bummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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