Are Sage (green) Hatches worthless?

[storm6436]

1 hour ago, Promethien said:

Water is easier than dirt with the way geysers work now. I have trouble finding maps that don't have 3+ water (not steam) geysers. Also you didn't read my entire post or didn't understand just how much pdirt ethanol distillers produce. I'll spell it out. A full time generator running on ethanol produces enough pdirt to feed 7.5 sage hatches. And not the exploity, give them a small bit each day so the starvation timer resets. Full feed. Also you can get quality 5 food from ethanol as well. So just siphon off a bit and grow beans with it and you are feeding a full stable of sage hatches. Dirt is absurdly plentiful when you make ethanol. Converting some of it to coal in your meat farm is simply a great choice that gives you that much more easy power.

 Yep.  That was one of my underlying points in the thread about the ethanol cycle.  800+kg pdirt per cycle.  Feed 600kg of it to your sage hatches so you can always keep at least one coal gen running constantly, the rest is up to you.  I composting a smidge of what remains meant I was making the dirt I was using on the trees and could afford showering dirt wherever else I needed it.

[0xFADE]

3 hours ago, xenoborg said:

Do sage's still lay eggs faster than the other 3? I thought that was their crowning achievement an omelette farm.

Doubtful since then you'd be able to starve farm them and get extra eggs out of it.  But i'll test it if I randomly get a sage hatch.

[avc15]

I'm surprised nobody talked about the food quality upgrade sage hatches can provide. It's rather labor intensive but it's a low tech way to get +4 morale.

 

So here's the balance.

1 hatch lays 15 eggs in its lifecycle if it spends less than 5 cycles unhappy in its lifetime. You can get 16 eggs per hatch lifecycle if you've got your priorities and skills set up properly but let's go with 15.

1 hatch lives 100 cycles. If you're feeding it meal lice, it eats 700 kcal/day, so, it will eat a total of 70,000 kcal during its lifetime.

15 eggs ~ 15 hatchlings ~ 48,000 kcal. Each hatch can produce 48,000 kcal worth of meat in its lifecycle.

48,000 kcal of meat cooks into 60,000 kcal of barbecue.

So if your goal is food production and you don't want coal - sage hatches eat -1 food and give you about 85% as much +3 food. The amount of meal lice they eat uses up 35 kg/dirt per day. Much cheaper dirt-wise than feeding them dirt directly.

But it does about double dupe labor for food production because they need to be groomed AND crops managed.

[Chthonicone]

7 minutes ago, avc15 said:

I'm surprised nobody talked about the food quality upgrade sage hatches can provide. It's rather labor intensive but it's a low tech way to get +4 morale.

 

So here's the balance.

1 hatch lays 15 eggs in its lifecycle if it spends less than 5 cycles unhappy in its lifetime. You can get 16 eggs per hatch lifecycle if you've got your priorities and skills set up properly but let's go with 15.

1 hatch lives 100 cycles. If you're feeding it meal lice, it eats 700 kcal/day, so, it will eat a total of 70,000 kcal during its lifetime.

15 eggs ~ 15 hatchlings ~ 48,000 kcal. Each hatch can produce 48,000 kcal worth of meat in its lifecycle.

48,000 kcal of meat cooks into 60,000 kcal of barbecue.

So if your goal is food production and you don't want coal - sage hatches eat -1 food and give you about 85% as much +3 food. The amount of meal lice they eat uses up 35 kg/dirt per day. Much cheaper dirt-wise than feeding them dirt directly.

But it does about double dupe labor for food production because they need to be groomed AND crops managed.

You're not being imaginative enough. If you have sweepers, they can provide dirt to the crops, and if you're willing to let the meal lice fall off naturally after 4 days ripe, you never have to have dupe intervention. Or you can just let the dupes harvest only, it's up to you.

[0xFADE]

Consider stone hatches instead.  Get enough and -quit- feeding them.  They starve around 10 cycles but lay an egg.  Repeat forever.

Though better is dense pufts.  You don't have to spend time feeding them.  They lay a lot of eggs that you can drown and if you are not collecting the oxylite you can let it turn back in to oxygen and they technically only consume 2.5kg of oxygen a cycle because of their 95% oxylite return.  It is only half as much meat as hatches but it sure seems like a lot more.  You are turning water in to meat.

[PhailRaptor]

4 hours ago, avc15 said:

I'm surprised nobody talked about the food quality upgrade sage hatches can provide. It's rather labor intensive but it's a low tech way to get +4 morale.

......but what does that have to do with Sage Hatches, specifically, that other Hatch varieties don't also provide?

[avc15]

5 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

......but what does that have to do with

Hmm.

Feeding meal lice, it only takes around 35 kg/cycle dirt per sage hatch to keep them fed. Every other approach to hatches, they consume 700 kg/cycle of raw materials directly. 20 times more. Sage hatches are more sustainable.

Have you ever literally run out of things to feed your hatches? I have.

It's a narrow niche certainly, because for long term meat production you don't want to use hatches anyway. But, totally useless? I disagree.

[thorstein92]

13 hours ago, Chthonicone said:

 If you have sweepers, they can provide dirt to the crops,

It goes offtopic.

But to be sure - can I really automate crop fertilisation?

[beowulf2010]

1 hour ago, thorstein92 said:

It goes offtopic.

But to be sure - can I really automate crop fertilisation?

Yep. If you don't mind the extra 4 cycles for the crops to drop and a bit of complex automation, you can farm with zero dupe interaction. 

Edit: @DarkMaster13reminded me that arbor trees take 20 cycles to drop instead of the 4 that everything else takes. 

[thorstein92]

3 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Yep. If you don't mind the extra 4 cycles for the crops to drop and a bit of complex automation, you can farm with zero dupe interaction. 

I'm a rancher type; but it should be helpful for wheezewort heatsink.

Thanks.

[avc15]

36 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Yep. If you don't mind the extra 4 cycles for the crops to drop and a bit of complex automation, you can farm with zero dupe interaction. 

Be aware of the downside. Cycles where the crop is ready for harvest even when it shows the stifled graphic, it still uses dirt.

 

I believe this results in 3 times more dirt consumption overall.

 

Just another trade off. Labor vs space & resources.

[0xFADE]

There is a little more cost than just 4 cycles. Crops still consume resources when stifled or ready to harvest. 

Ah beat me to it. 

[DarkMaster13]

1 hour ago, beowulf2010 said:

Yep. If you don't mind the extra 4 cycles for the crops to drop and a bit of complex automation, you can farm with zero dupe interaction. 

Except for arbor trees, which take 20 cycles to drop their lumber without harvesting, also consuming their fertilization during that time as well.

[beowulf2010]

34 minutes ago, avc15 said:

Be aware of the downside. Cycles where the crop is ready for harvest even when it shows the stifled graphic, it still uses dirt.

I believe this results in 3 times more dirt consumption overall.

Just another trade off. Labor vs space & resources.

This is actually why I mentioned the complex automation. There's a couple guys here on the forums with completely automated dupe free farms that shut off water/dirt/whatever for the 4 cycles. 

I'll post a link if I can find it. At work at the moment so forum time is scattered. 

Edit: Found the link. 

6 minutes ago, DarkMaster13 said:

Except for arbor trees, which take 20 cycles to drop their lumber without harvesting, also consuming their fertilization during that time as well.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that arbor trees were different. Thanks! I'll edit that in my first post. 

[Daikataro]

On 9/9/2019 at 2:52 PM, 0xFADE said:

Hatches have the least design requirement. This very thread is being asked from the standpoint of someone who is likely newer.  The type of person who would use a smooth hatch because a metal refinery is hard to set up. The type of person hatches were designed to help most. 

Well duh. Would I open a thread asking something I already know? Not very likely. Also Smooth Hatches don't give out a particularly bad return (only 25% loss), require way less setup and byproduct management, zero energy requirements, and provide eggs and meat while doing so. Your comment also did not add anything to the thread, so why make it?

Back on topic, from what I can gather, sage hatches only have the gimmick where they give a better return of mass consumed/coal, but their feeding requirements are way more strict, and other than forest biome starting maps, there's really not that much incentive to farm them. As has been stated by several people in the thread, resources consumed by stone hatches are overly abundant, and the diminished returns on mass as coal don't really matter all too much.

Also they have the exact same reproductive rate as other hatches, so ranching them for eggs doesn't make a ton of sense, when you could be doing the same with Stone Hatches, with far more available materials. So for now I'm just gonna stay away from the green guys, maybe they will be changed in a later patch?

[Chthonicone]

10 minutes ago, Daikataro said:

Well duh. Would I open a thread asking something I already know? Not very likely. Also Smooth Hatches don't give out a particularly bad return (only 25% loss), require way less setup and byproduct management, zero energy requirements, and provide eggs and meat while doing so. Your comment also did not add anything to the thread, so why make it?

Back on topic, from what I can gather, sage hatches only have the gimmick where they give a better return of mass consumed/coal, but their feeding requirements are way more strict, and other than forest biome starting maps, there's really not that much incentive to farm them. As has been stated by several people in the thread, resources consumed by stone hatches are overly abundant, and the diminished returns on mass as coal don't really matter all too much.

Also they have the exact same reproductive rate as other hatches, so ranching them for eggs doesn't make a ton of sense, when you could be doing the same with Stone Hatches, with far more available materials. So for now I'm just gonna stay away from the green guys, maybe they will be changed in a later patch?

Dunno, maybe try them on Arboria when without even trying you end up with >900 tons of dirt just from the starting area. Not even exaggerating here. I mean it's not a long term solution, but early to mid game they are strong.

Then again Arboria requires alternate solutions for a lot of things.