Aquatuner Coolant Bypass

[Tonyroid]

When you have a coolant loop that uses an aquatuner, it's often best to make the loop bypass the aquatuner when it is off. If it's done well, you don't need a liquid reservoir or whatever for buffer space.

 

Edit: HOLY CRAP GUYS! I took the video down. You are right. It STILL doesn't work. I find this very frustrating.

 

[Nitroturtle]

Good video, but I was really hoping you figured out a way to avoid the first packet skipping the AT. 

[BLACKBERREST3]

can you remind me how packet slipping happens. is it when you the automation turns on/off the AT very quickly, or is it when it turns on/off in general? i wonder if there would be a difference using a power shutoff over an automation wire.

[bzgzd]

Version with valve can get overfilled and stuck as well the same way.

I think there is no difference between fully open valve and bridge except in length.

Problem is that aquatuner can have one liquid block inside and so you can overfill the loop by turning aquatuner off when it is running and with some "luck" have that one liquid block staying inside even when aquatuner is off.

First I tough only turning off power can cause this but then when I was recording it happened even with just turning off using automation.

 

So I would say just remove refilling pipe and there is no problem with bridge or valve system...

 

[Xuhybrid]

No matter what, if you use a bypass, the first packet will always be skipped. We call this a "feature".

[BLACKBERREST3]

ah, this explains a lot, thanks guys. just to be clear, the take away is to not flip the AT because of these "1-sec hiccups", make sure the output of the bridge is directly adjacent to the AT if using a bridge at all for your bypass like Saturnus said, and finally, do not overfill the cooling loop to block the system as the AT can store a packet within itself, thanks for the vid bzgz. Anything i got wrong or is that it.

[bzgzd]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

On the bottom is the correct bypass version. See how it does not leave a gap?

So there are 3 versions.

A. Same pipe length when going through AT or bypassing (using valve)
B. One segment longer pipe when going through AT (top)
C. One segment longer pipe when bypassing (bottom)

But I don't think version C is the "correct" version.
All 3 can get stuck same way (when refilling is not removed) and C can cause some more problems.

I would say A is the best as pipe loop is almost always full (except when sometimes off AT has one blob inside).
B has empty segment "looping" with AT on and C has one segment not looping and sitting at the bridge which might be a problem and can brake pipe if that one blob gets too hot inside steam room or something.

 

[badgamer123]

3 hours ago, Saturnus said:

@Tonyroid Apologies for being blunt but you're now giving bad advice because you incorrectly set up your bypass before.

Here's your bypass version on top which is wrong.

On the bottom is the correct bypass version. See how it does not leave a gap?

The reason is that on the bottom bypass the bypass acts as a buffer holding that one pipe section until the pipe is cleared.

No need to add valves into the system.

EDIT: As long as the bypass bridge output and the aqautuner output are adjacent, and goes from the latter through the former. And the bypass goes through the aquatuner input to the bridge input then this bypass will always work no matter how the bypass pipe is laid out. The longer the pipe the longer you need to prime the system so that it fills up the bypass pipe by flicking the aquatuner on and off a few times.

Please also note that rotated aquatuners does not currently function normally when using bypasses of any kind. They have a one second "hiccup" when bypassed for some reason. It does not however influence the functioning of the illustrated bypass solution. The bug has been reported.

o **** for unknown reason,my AT always use the rotated version.....

[bzgzd]

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Well, you can't overfill the loop in any way if you use the bypass version I posted (unless you try to fill the loop through the bypass but that would just be silly), so no need to worry about that.

Here is how it overfill (same way as other versions):
AT can be off and have one water segment inside.
If there is refill at that point into loop it will get water to max. capacity inside bypass loop.
At that point system has already too much water that fills whole bypass and +1 in AT so next time AT goes off without water inside it gets stuck.

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

thats what i'm trying to get around right now. maybe some clever use of the shutoff valve or some filter gates can prevent this.

[TLW]

17 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

At that point system has already too much water that fills whole bypass and +1 in AT so next time AT goes off without water inside it gets stuck.

About the only way to have a stable loop is:

1. Use variant C above.
2. Fill it fully with the aquatuner never having been turned on. (Or rather, without any liquid in the aquatuner).
3. Disconnect the filler.
4. Then enable the aquatuner.
5. And never connect the filler again.

Rather annoying, I am aware.

Now, if you could bridge the filler directly into the overflow bridge input you'd be golden... but you can't, and the extra pipe segment would cause backups.

Personally, I've given up; I tend to use a reservoir in the cooling loop. Also helps with temperature stability (especially with the whole first-packet thing). Nowhere near as elegant though.

...as an aside, it should be possible to (ab)use bridges/valves to temperature-mix. (Imagine taking half of every packet and delaying it by one pipe.) Does anyone have a compact design for this? I suspect it could be done more compactly than a reservoir.

[bzgzd]

23 minutes ago, TLW said:

About the only way to have a stable loop is:

1. Use variant C above.
2. Fill it fully with the aquatuner never having been turned on. (Or rather, without any liquid in the aquatuner).
3. Disconnect the filler.
4. Then enable the aquatuner.
5. And never connect the filler again.

Disconnecting refill is the best for sure because why to keep it when there is already enough water.
And removing exactly one water blob in case it got too much is easy.

For me variant A that means with valve is better. With C you have one water block not looping when AT is running (it is not visible because it is on bridge white entry point).
And B is also not that bad because one empty segment in the loop when AT is on causes no issues.

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

With variant C, you could use insulated pipe so it does not change temp on the bridge blob very quickly. This will act as a temp buffer in a way until the blob can move again, i.e when the AT is off. If the AT never turns off, then You wouldn't need the bypass to begin with.

[bzgzd]

42 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

With variant C, you could use insulated pipe so it does not change temp on the bridge blob very quickly. This will act as a temp buffer in a way until the blob can move again, i.e when the AT is off. If the AT never turns off, then You wouldn't need the bypass to begin with.

Normally you would have insulated pipes there anyway, but still one blob sitting there while others are cooled down and looping...

I would say that turning off AT with pipe temperature sensor on pipe segment just before AT should always result with AT either having that 10kg inside or not having it, but ONI is not very deterministic in this kind of exact timing situations. And then there is also possibility of power going off at any moment so putting in correct amount of water and then disconnecting refill seems best in all 3 cases (or using reservoir).

And using valve (same loop lengths) makes it easiest to put correct amount of water in as AT can be ON or "OFF without blob inside" when filling. Only negative is 200kg steel for valve.

 

[Lilalaunekuh]

5 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Please also note that rotated aquatuners does not currently function normally when using bypasses of any kind. They have a one second "hiccup" when bypassed for some reason. It does not however influence the functioning of the illustrated bypass solution. The bug has been reported.

Thank you so much. I thought I messed something up, but it seems to be that I rotated my aquatuners ...

 

 

To add my 2 cent to this discussion and introduce a new angle:

Don´t you consider the number of pipe segments of the cooling loop which are inside the steam chamber

(or call it the hot room around the aquatuner) ?

[bzgzd]

40 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

To add my 2 cent to this discussion and introduce a new angle:

Don´t you consider the number of pipe segments of the cooling loop which are inside the steam chamber

(or call it the hot room around the aquatuner) ?

Yes another negative of valve is that it can't be build inside walls.

I have only one AT in my current game and I used same version as you, but that is the one called "wrong" here.

 

[Tonyroid]

6 hours ago, Saturnus said:

@Tonyroid Apologies for being blunt but you're now giving bad advice because you incorrectly set up your bypass before..

 

I very much like the constructive criticism, and it's the best on this forum. Thank you. I often get so much good advice AFTER I post a video and I'm sorry I missed it. Others have suggested this layout and I'll definitely try it out. 

I'm going to have to take the time to read all of this thread very carefully today.

[Xuhybrid]

10 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Please also note that rotated aquatuners does not currently function normally when using bypasses of any kind. They have a one second "hiccup" when bypassed for some reason. It does not however influence the functioning of the illustrated bypass solution. The bug has been reported.

This happens on both rotations for me. I've resorted to not using a bypass at all because it doesn't function as required.

[KittenIsAGeek]

15 hours ago, Nitroturtle said:

Good video, but I was really hoping you figured out a way to avoid the first packet skipping the AT. 

The way to avoid the first packet skipping is to control a shutoff valve instead of the aquatuner.  Leave the aquatuner 'enabled' and set the shutoff to turn off when a packet that is too cold hits the thermal sensor.

1 hour ago, Xuhybrid said:

This happens on both rotations for me. I've resorted to not using a bypass at all because it doesn't function as required.

Yes, the aquatuner right now appears to need an extra second to come online after receiving the 'green' signal.

[Tonyroid]

@Nitroturtle @BLACKBERREST3 @bzgzd @Xuhybrid @Saturnus @badgamer123 @TLW @Lilalaunekuh

 

As some of you surely know already, my solution STILL doesn't work all the time. I took the video down. Thanks for all the feedback and discussion. I'm going to review the options and your suggestions and do some more serious sciencing to be extremely sure I have it right for next time. I know this seems like a small thing but it's important to me to use things for my solutions that WORK and also that don't have extraneous flow-control hardware.

[KittenIsAGeek]

49 minutes ago, Tonyroid said:

know this seems like a small thing but it's important to me to use things for my solutions that WORK and also that don't have extraneous flow-control hardware.

I think this is great.  There's nothing wrong with waiting until you've fixed all the problems before presenting your work.  I applaud the attention to detail.

If it helps any at all, I think that at this point you're going to need a small amount of extra flow-control hardware.  Specifically, using a shutoff valve should solve your problem.  Instead of using logic to control the aquatuner, use it to control a shut-off valve.  Set the system up so that the default action is to bypass, so that in the event of a power failure your coolant continues to circulate.  When the valve is turned on (open), then packets will flow into the aquatuner to get processed.  The shutoff valve reacts more quickly than the aquatuner to a signal change and it should solve the "first packet bypasses" problem.

[Tonyroid]

1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

If it helps any at all, I think that at this point you're going to need a small amount of extra flow-control hardware.  Specifically, using a shutoff valve should solve your problem.

I think you might be right. I'll definitely try that and some other configurations that look good but I don't quite trust any particular thing right now.

[Xuhybrid]

Unfortunately i think you'll need "extraneous flow-control hardware" to achieve a glitch free solution. At least until the bug is fixed. I brought up a similar thread the other day and managed to move towards a solution using some extra automation and flow control.

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

I love how everyone came together for this. I think I'm going to plan my new builds around temperature tolerance when using the AT to not break my pipes, at least until a solution or fix comes out for this. it's easier to build more background temp sensors than it is for a foreground building like the valve. On a side note, I thought this might come in handy for people. It's a background switch. Other people have probably thought of this too. 

[DreamApart]

20 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Thank you so much. I thought I messed something up, but it seems to be that I rotated my aquatuners ...

 

 

To add my 2 cent to this discussion and introduce a new angle:

Don´t you consider the number of pipe segments of the cooling loop which are inside the steam chamber

(or call it the hot room around the aquatuner) ?

The latter is so much prettier. I was using the former design all the time and I can't believe I survived. You've saved my life!