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kerosene

CO2 keeps appearing in my vacuum chamber

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kerosene    19

I have a waterlock sealed vacuum chamber. Every now and then a small amount of CO2 appears in it in approximately the same location. I think it's a bug as I'm not working on or inside the chamber and I haven't noticed any dupes entering it.

I suppose it's possible that dupes occasionally enter to retrieve some material that's still inside but they don't breathe in a vacuum and shouldn't create any CO2.

How do I fix this?

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Croz    4

I have the same issue, but it's most reasonable to assume the CO2 is coming from the dupes.

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Gus Smedstad    358

The issue is clearly that while Dupes can’t inhale in a vacuum, they can still exhale.

Your choices are don’t permit dupes to enter the chamber, only permit Dupes to enter wearing suits, or include a gas pump to deal with the occasional dumps of CO2 from Dupes.

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kerosene    19

The issue is clearly a bug. It's a vacuum chamber surrounding my base with two entrances, one at the top and one at the bottom. The CO2 kept appearing somewhere around the top. I sealed the entrance at the top and set access restrictions on the bottom. The CO2 has now appeared again at the top.

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Gus Smedstad    358

I guess this is one of those things that can’t be resolved without screenshots. I use vacuum chambers all the time, and I’ve never had any CO2 appear in them mysteriously.

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bzgzd    276

 

I could not reproduce it, but maybe there is something when dupe exhales inside doors?

Looking at picture in that bug report, amount of CO2 that compromised enclosed vacuum area seems to be 20g which is one dupe output.

 

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nakomaru    1,453

Oh, looks like that could be it. Doors can also teleport water far above them in situations not unlike this.

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mathmanican    2,354
1 hour ago, kerosene said:

The CO2 kept appearing somewhere around the top

Is your co2 appearing above mechanical doors? Screenshot please.

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kerosene    19
20 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Is your co2 appearing above mechanical doors? Screenshot please.

Yes. A pair of mechanical doors 2 tiles apart, with a layer of walls above and below that form the end of a vacuum chamber. The CO2 appears somewhere above this but I don't know where exactly. The doors are frequently used but the CO2 appears only rarely, something like 5 times in 70 cycles with 5 dupes.

 

 

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mathmanican    2,354
1 minute ago, kerosene said:

Yes

Thanks for confirming. If you can, upload a screen shot sometime. I'm currently data collecting on fluid mechanics. Liquids can be moved more than 5 tiles away in one tick under the right circumstances. I'll be moving onto gasses soon.

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Gus Smedstad    358

If the current thought is that it's something about airlock doors, it's worth noting is that I'm waterlock phobic, so my vacuum chambers are always sealed off by pump-style airlocks with two mechanical airlock doors. While I don't always use suit checkpoints for airlocks, whenever I've got a long-term vacuum chamber, I also have a suit dock.

Looking at that bug report, I think it's very unlikely the door is actually creating CO2. Teleporting CO2 because it's a 3 door airlock, the middle door closes on a CO2 bubble, and the game thinks that vacuum is the closest tile (which it isn't) seems far more likely.

I don't build 3 door airlocks, so I'd never create this situation in my games.

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Zarquan    777

I use one tile water locks to seal my vacuums, and one thing that happened is if there is oxygen touching the water lock, then they would stand in the water lock and breathe the oxygen, exhaling in to the vacuum.  I restructured it so only CO2 would be adjacent to the water lock and it stopped happening.  It isn't what's happening in the bug report, but it is related.

7 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Try atmosuits. Dupes generate CO2 all the time and release at a certain capacity, I believe.

5 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

The issue is clearly that while Dupes can’t inhale in a vacuum, they can still exhale.

Your choices are don’t permit dupes to enter the chamber, only permit Dupes to enter wearing suits, or include a gas pump to deal with the occasional dumps of CO2 from Dupes.

Dupes do not exhale when they can't breathe.  I have unsuited dupes running around in vacuums all the time.

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mathmanican    2,354
27 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

one tile water locks to seal my vacuums, and one thing that happened is if there is oxygen touching the water lock, then they would stand in the water lock and breathe the oxygen, exhaling in to the vacuum.

I can confirm I see this too. As such I always build 2 tile high stacked locks and have no issue maintaining vacuum.

Dupes without suits do not pollute. :eagerness:

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bzgzd    276
1 hour ago, Gus Smedstad said:

If the current thought is that it's something about airlock doors, it's worth noting is that I'm waterlock phobic, so my vacuum chambers are always sealed off by pump-style airlocks with two mechanical airlock doors. While I don't always use suit checkpoints for airlocks, whenever I've got a long-term vacuum chamber, I also have a suit dock.

Looking at that bug report, I think it's very unlikely the door is actually creating CO2. Teleporting CO2 because it's a 3 door airlock, the middle door closes on a CO2 bubble, and the game thinks that vacuum is the closest tile (which it isn't) seems far more likely.

I don't build 3 door airlocks, so I'd never create this situation in my games.

It is not important what doors or airlocks you use to enter vacuum areas. This is about doors that are bellow vacuum and between two not vacuum areas.

I tried it properly now and it is actually fairly easy to reproduce. I did it about 4 times in a row within half cycle with this setup:

doors_co2a.thumb.png.5b03e4beb12a52638b559a3f7c9ae3bc.png

 

Spoiler

doors_co2b.thumb.png.fe2e64af8a4ff995814524c36a0305a2.png

 

I let dupe run few times from left to right and back with 2+ kg oxygen everywhere except that vacuum.

 

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mathmanican    2,354
30 minutes ago, fredhp said:

It happened with liquid lock too.

Picture? Reproducible? I would love to see the configuration where it occurred.

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kerosene    19

I speculate this can happen when a dupe exhales in specific circumstances that involve passing through multiple doors and possibly pressure difference and the game tries to find space for the CO2 and due to a flawed algorithm ends up releasing the CO2 in nonsensical places, somewhere above the door.

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bzgzd    276
1 hour ago, kerosene said:

I speculate this can happen when a dupe exhales in specific circumstances that involve passing through multiple doors and possibly pressure difference and the game tries to find space for the CO2 and due to a flawed algorithm ends up releasing the CO2 in nonsensical places, somewhere above the door.

Seems similar to when shove voles are outputting regolith and there is no room it can go quite high even through walls.

And also doors have some specialties like they can "transport" solid chunks of materials through walls.

shove_vole_regolith.thumb.png.fb131237cf834c1b778314c5fc3523a7.png

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mathmanican    2,354
On 9/3/2019 at 12:14 PM, fredhp said:

It happened with liquid lock too.

I decided to provide the picture. 

vac-liquid-lock-issue.thumb.png.934115cf1884add49debe86db50629a9.png

It even occurs on 1 tile wide locks (and even if you have a 6 tile gap to jump upwards)...

small-lock-error.png.1fe84868e2d6602512ff18f37374c2aa.png 6tilehigh.thumb.png.681a1719c73cea0a9eb9f0c45213f3e3.png

I then tried 2 tile jumps, 3 tile jumps, on by one, up to 14 tile jumps, and got successful teleportation.  So I made a 62 insulated tile jump, and sure enough, it works. This bug appears to have no limits (which I'm sure means we can find a way to teleport gaseous matter upwards, any distance, on purpose - mwhahahah).

supertallvac.thumb.png.be2f3e35841d03b1855d4ab33da84495.png

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Aelfled    37

Hmm, someone presumably decided that it couldn't just abandon the attempt to create the gas packet, but an unbounded while loop doesn't seem like the best plan either...

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Xuhybrid    259
On 9/3/2019 at 1:48 PM, nakomaru said:

Oh, looks like that could be it. Doors can also teleport water far above them in situations not unlike this.

I've been having this issue with a volcano cooking oil. The doors i use to separate the heat end up with petroleum inside randomly, even though they're not in direct contact, and then there's sour gas in the volcano room. It basically teleports through two rows of glass tiles.

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On 9/3/2019 at 4:04 AM, Gus Smedstad said:

The issue is clearly that while Dupes can’t inhale in a vacuum, they can still exhale.

Your choices are don’t permit dupes to enter the chamber, only permit Dupes to enter wearing suits, or include a gas pump to deal with the occasional dumps of CO2 from Dupes.

But in vacuum they hold their breath and that keeps them from exhaling. Its only when they go to catch their breath that they finally exhale again. If a vacuum has no oxygen in it for dupes to catch their breath in, then the CO2 must be getting in another way.

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kerosene    19

Based on observation by me and others and some guessing I believe the following is happening

If CO2 is exhaled by a dupe while stepping through a mechanical door, the game will search for a tile that can hold it. The algorithm will (sometimes perhaps always) deposit the gas on the closest tile meeting the following requirement: capable of holding gas, on the same y axis and above the door.

Therefore the solution to my problem is: do not place mechanical doors so that the first tile for the algorithm would be inside a vacuum chamber.

Following this, after 120 cycles I've yet to see any CO2 appearing in my vacuum chamber.

 

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bobe17    17

I have this bug too but with a steam room (~220kg/tile), not vacuum. Annoying. And i have a lh2/lox unit production few tiles above that room.

Now, i wonder if there is some steam deletion in the process.

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