Blazing Falken

The "Crying Crab" Cooler: Non-exploit phase-change heat deletion

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avc15    416
27 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Keep your worts in Hydrogen. They act on the gas SHC.

The conversion to liquid creates heat. The conversion to gas deletes heat.
The magic happens in the 6~8K range, where it takes more energy to go up than go down.

You could design an apparatus that dumps your waste heat into liquid eth, then the gas is cooled by conduction to your chilled hydrogen. You won't need to be particular about the hydrogen's temperature on the low end, just make sure the ethanol gas isn't heated more than necessary.

(or cooled more than necessary)

If you managed to get a perfect 6C range from boiling -> condensation this would boost the power of your wheezeworts by a clean 14%.

Someone go do :)

 

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nakomaru    1,387
Posted (edited)

If you convert half of your base to extract the latent heat energy from regolith, I really feel you deserve it. The fun part of this game is making such contraptions.

Yes. But it's easy to prevent over cooling the liquid by condensing to vacuum. (Less easy to prevent conduction from gas to liquid - I recommend chilling the cold side well beyond liquidation to very quickly condense.)

Edited by nakomaru
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mathmanican    2,318
29 minutes ago, 6Havok9 said:

It's still a physics simulation, it just obeys to similar but different rules from the "real" world, and you have to build your own theoretical model/framework to think, elaborate, use your brain inside of it.

Spoken like a mathematician. Love it.

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Nebbie    298
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rhogar said:

This increases the DTUs cooled by wheezes as long as you ride on the edge right?  SHC of l.ethanol: 2.46 and h2: 2.4.

No, that 2.46 is for the liquid form, while the gas form's SHC is lower, which is the entire point of this thread.

Edited by Nebbie
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OxCD    412
5 hours ago, hackcasual said:

Salt works in the opposite direction, so could use that to for example, amplify the heat supplied to a turbine, or improve efficiency of a regolith melter.

Not easily :)

image.png.71a1e30c1c6219429f4b240bb74ecc0e.pngimage.png.ced9364346a4e8d7dc14fb15b55bd013.png

 

Or you'll have to deal with solid salt and motlen salt, but it's not really effective with debris.

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Gurgel    1,149
2 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

Hey wait wait wait. I understand there is a capital P, but this is still a physics simulation.

The capital P is important. Of course, this is a simulation of some alternate physics, where, for example, the laws of Thermodynamics do not apply and something else is at work. I have pretty much lost all patience with people that claim since some things look like Physics, then Thermodynamics must of course apply, but who at the same time completely miss all the other deviations. The whole stance is deeply disconnected from the observable facts.

2 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

Actually, we aren't even so sure that our world obeys to the laws we think it obeys to. Ok, we almost are, we have proof, large amounts of it, but who knows... something weird might happen...

Well, what Physicists call "proof", Mathematicians would probably call a finite number of examples that are basically meaningless as proof. We do have some good indicators that currently known Physics mostly applies with pretty good precision but that is it. We do know that Physics as known today is fundamentally wrong (no Quantum-Gravity) and there is slowly mounting evidence that Physics may not actually allow intelligence on the level some human beings have. Of course, Physics has absolutely no mechanism for consciousness, which is already leading to bizarre alternate models like the claims that this reality must be a simulation.

The whole thing is both exceptionally well verified experimentally and pretty much known to be wrong at the same time. 

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Rhogar    22
1 hour ago, Nebbie said:

No, that 2.46 is for the liquid form, while the gas form's SHC is lower, which is the entire point of this thread.

The wheezes will cools it in gas form, which then converts it to liquid gaining the free additional SH "cold".  The better setup is the one Nakomaru stated with the hydrogen.  It has a much lower tech req than a steam generator/aquatuner setup.

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KittenIsAGeek    1,195
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Blazing Falken said:

The "crying crab" is a relatively simple and viable no-exploitation heat deletion system, made possible by harnessing the phase-change cooling of Ethanol.

You can also cool by using the phase-change from water into steam.    However, the lower boiling point of ethanol combined with the lower SHC of gaseous ethanol, make your method easier.  Also, your design is quite elegant in its simplicity.  Good job!

1 hour ago, OxCD said:

Not easily :)

image.png.71a1e30c1c6219429f4b240bb74ecc0e.pngimage.png.ced9364346a4e8d7dc14fb15b55bd013.png

 

Or you'll have to deal with solid salt and motlen salt, but it's not really effective with debris.

You linked gaseous salt twice.  Molten salt has a SHC of 0.700.

image.png.bedd35a73086385e8e94d456d8e847d9.png

12 hours ago, cblack said:

Ethanol deletes heat when it changes phase?  It must be the only fluid that does that, and since that violates thermodynamics, I think I'd call it an exploit. 

This is not a completely correct statement.  Energies are lost (or gained) from the materials due to phase changes.  For example, if you boil water into steam, you have to apply a LOT of heat -- far more than you would need to simply raise the temperature of it past the boiling point.  You have to continue to apply this energy throughout the entire phase change process, or the water stops boiling.  Conversely, turning steam back into water means that you have to remove heat energy from the steam.  However, you will not get as much energy back from the steam as you put into the water.  It won't even be close.  This is how a water distiller works.  An element powered by electricity applies large amounts of heat to a reservoir of water until most of the water boils into steam.  The steam goes through a channel that lets the heat disperse into the atmosphere until it condenses back into water, where it drains into another reservoir.  No extra power needed.

So, while ethanol in ONI does delete heat, you can abuse this exact same mechanic in reality to cool a room by ... boiling water.

Edited by KittenIsAGeek
I can't spell. I can't type. I should just give up and go play ONI.
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Blazing Falken    179
1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

You can also cool by using the phase-change from water into steam.    However, the lower boiling point of ethanol combined with the lower SHC of gaseous ethanol, make your method easier.

Water and steam both have the same SHC, so unless I'm missing something here, it takes the same amount of energy to change it in both directions, making it a pointless transition for this purpose. As far as I know, the only reason that the ethanol can delete heat this way is exclusively because of the SHC difference. This is also the reasoning for using the petroleum in the bottom layer as it mostly only conducts heat to the liquid ethanol without wasting energy heating the gas vapors. Heat is lost at liquid to gas transition and cold is "gained" going gas to liquid. Both transitions are important to the system efficiency.

To everyone else asking "Why this instead of a turbine?" well it's one more newer cooling option that doesn't rely on turbines or material consumption. It's literally a "power goes in cold comes out" self-contained unit at dupe-friendly temperatures that doesn't require exploits.

"Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT."

Maybe we can get some muckroot batteries up and running in the future..

Spoiler

 

So. How are you holding up?

muckdos.jpg.f77972bbb59d6b74837284804a0d1ee3.jpg

BECAUSE I'M A MUCKROOT!

 

 

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KittenIsAGeek    1,195
22 minutes ago, Blazing Falken said:

Water and steam both have the same SHC, so unless I'm missing something here, it takes the same amount of energy to change it in both directions, making it a pointless transition for this purpose.

There's a hysteresis built into phase changes that makes it work.  You have to go about 6 degrees above the boiling point to make the water boil.  The steam appears at the boiling point, so thermal energy is lost.  When cooling the steam down to condense it back into water, you have to go 5 degrees below the boiling point before it condenses -- but the water appears at that temperature rather than at the boiling point.

Or at least, that's how it worked when I built my machine.  I suppose I could build another one and test with the current system -- but with steam turbines its easier just to keep warming up the steam until it turns the turbine on.

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nakomaru    1,387
Posted (edited)

The point is that due to steam having the same SHC as water, going up 1K costs the same as going down 1K.

You don't even need the phase change to have those results.

You are probably remembering the days when polluted water had much higher SHC than steam and water, where boiling it would instantly delete about ΔT*2*J/g/K of heat.

Edited by nakomaru
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OxCD    412
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

You linked gaseous salt twice.  Molten salt has a SHC of 0.700.

Nop, have a better look on the title of the properties box. I clicked on the element itself, while I was testing this SHC difference.

The status also indicate gas, and liquid. But it seems the information box is the same for both, so I think we've discovered a bug.

Edited by OxCD
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Lafara    28

in reality , using state-change watering roof tile does reducing building air temperature by 4 degree celcius without any use of air conditioner.

well, if only myceelium don't love to accommodate that roof tile, it'll be perfect.

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badgamer123    101
16 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

You can also cool by using the phase-change from water into steam.    However, the lower boiling point of ethanol combined with the lower SHC of gaseous ethanol, make your method easier.  Also, your design is quite elegant in its simplicity.  Good job!

You linked gaseous salt twice.  Molten salt has a SHC of 0.700.

image.png.bedd35a73086385e8e94d456d8e847d9.png

This is not a completely correct statement.  Energies are lost (or gained) from the materials due to phase changes.  For example, if you boil water into steam, you have to apply a LOT of heat -- far more than you would need to simply raise the temperature of it past the boiling point.  You have to continue to apply this energy throughout the entire phase change process, or the water stops boiling.  Conversely, turning steam back into water means that you have to remove heat energy from the steam.  However, you will not get as much energy back from the steam as you put into the water.  It won't even be close.  This is how a water distiller works.  An element powered by electricity applies large amounts of heat to a reservoir of water until most of the water boils into steam.  The steam goes through a channel that lets the heat disperse into the atmosphere until it condenses back into water, where it drains into another reservoir.  No extra power needed.

So, while ethanol in ONI does delete heat, you can abuse this exact same mechanic in reality to cool a room by ... boiling water.

da **** i just learn something when playing game again...
care to explain more?it look like some alien tech lol.sorry my physic is bad.;)

12 hours ago, bleeter6 said:

This build is for before you get plastic to build the turbine right?

this one is good,i been looking for some non-turbine cooling now,......too much turbine no fun for me...

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KittenIsAGeek    1,195
1 hour ago, badgamer123 said:

care to explain more?it look like some alien tech lol.sorry my physic is bad.;)

The "crab cooler" works by using power (1200 watts) to move heat out of a coolant line filled with water into a room filled with petroleum and ethanol.  When the ethanol gets hot, the liquid turns into a gas through the process of boiling.  The gas holds less thermal energy than the liquid does, so that extra heat is lost.  The coolant line condenses the ethanol back into liquid, using less energy than was needed to boil the liquid.

On the left side is a pool with conductive tiles and doors.  When the doors are open, there is a vacuum between the metal walls.  When the doors close, thermal energy "flows" across them and through the panels, letting the pool of water cool down.  This warms up the liquid in the coolant pipes, which goes through the aquatuner and the process starts all over again.

The purpose of the petroleum is to act as a thermal stabilizer, meaning that the aquatuner termperature won't spike when the ethanol is transitioning from gas to liquid (or liquid to gas).

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Tobruk    302
On 16.08.2019 at 5:26 PM, avc15 said:

ethanol got nerfed)

What has changed?

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avc15    416
3 hours ago, Tobruk said:

What has changed?

Shc used to be much higher. Which made it a much better bulk secondary coolant than water. It's now just a bit better than water (40% or so) in terms of its stored energy to room temp when piped out just above freezing temps.

Edited by avc15

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