Difficulty in DST

[Ermac__]

 

 

 

1

13 hours ago, Electroely said:

I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily PRAISING the way the game does difficulty, I was just explaining how I believe it works. I didn't mean to say that bunnymen farms not making sense is an excuse for them to be this good (I should have been more clear in my post about a lot of things), just that them not making sense as a food source shouldn't be a reason to nerf them with the direction the game seems to be taking. I do agree with you on everything said here.

 

One part I meant to include in my original post (but I forgot to) was the main reason I think the game can't be difficult for more players. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that with the way the game controls, ESPECIALLY in DST where there's latency involved, actions requiring precise movement or timing don't really work well. 

 

Who is asking for mechanically tight execution in DST or why would this be a problem anyway? Game doesn't need one frame links in order to have some enemies that aren't just hit x times and walk back, and plenty of games actually have these tight execution requirements for online play, just play low ping servers. DST already has fast item switches.

[the_revenant]

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Although for this character = difficulty thing to work properly, the celestial portal needs a serious looking at. It kinda defeats a lot of this if you can just switch to X character who's best at X task whenever you want for so little cost and no penalty.

Preach it brother.

[CaptainChaotica]

First of all, THANK YOU, @Electroely.  For like...everything in that first post.  We lose perspective, around here, about what it's LIKE for new players.  We start getting so bored that some of us want to up the difficulty permanently and universally, without remembering...

Well, look up any proper let's play of people who are just learning the game--preferably one with funny commentary between friends and long enough to contain some actual LEARNING, so you can see them get better in front of you. Some classic examples include:

Jacksepticeye and Robin:  "I was killed by DARKNESS?"

JACK:  Oh, yeah, I should've mentioned.  Darkness kills you in this game.  (He'd been strongly emphasising GET TO THE FIRE GET TO THE FIRE DO YOU HAVE A TORCH MAKE A LIGHT MAKE A LIIIIGGGGHHHT!!!!! but never got around to saying _why_...)

ROBIN:  I thought it was just so you could _see_ s**t!

CoryxKenshin and MavAttack:  "It never got any easier, the food situation NEVER stopped being so, ya know, 911...  We kept waiting for it to be stable, but it's NEVER stable."

The number of people who have died of darkness because they were DISTRACTED BY A CRAFTING MENU, including Lewis from the Yogscast ("You can't let your guard down for a SECOND!  Not even a SECOND!!  I'm gutted!  I'm absolutely _gutted_."), Sips, and Sugawolf.  Twice.  ("If you have to know what happened, I...diedbecauseiprirotizedmakingapiratehatoverlightingthecampfire LET'S GET STARTED AGAIN!")

Even if you're fairly experienced with the basics: Differences between regular and Together, for one thing.  STUMPT PRICE: "Okay, when you say 'Werebeaver', here is what I hear:  Unstoppable Force."  After dying for the third time on account of (rightly!) assuming that a big scary monster would be, ya know, TOUGH, and have something called...armour?  Is that the word? 

(#makewerebeaverfunagain)

So many unready for/unknowing darkness deaths, so much difficulty due to lack of crockpot, so many forest fires wiping out the camp because they didn't know fire "jumps", ("Well, uh, the fire, it, it jumped, you see, and..." "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?  WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"), so many "I'm hungry.  LET'S ATTACK THE BIG MEAT THING!" (Facetanks a beefalo.  without even thinking of the concept of armor.  in a herd.)  "Hey, an egg exists.  Let's take it!  WHAT DO YOU _MEAN_ IT'S CHASING ME OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD IT WON'T STOP IT HITS SO _HARD_!!"   You survived 2 days!  "I'm sure I can get my stuff back from the killer bee area if I'm fast enough."  So many red butts...so many treeguards...so many Charlies...so much fire, so much starving, so much DEATH!  And that's all just the beginner stuff.  Notice that hounds and winter aren't even mentioned here.

And WE all started out this way, at least somewhat.  Don't lie.  You did.  Maybe not ALL of these specifics--maybe you guessed about darkness in time, maybe you didn't get distracted by shiny colours away from the ACTUAL OH *BEEP* DO THIS _NOW_ OR YOUR GAME WILL END!! stuff, maybe you _do_ pay attention to durability and UI warnings, maybe you never threw yourself face-first at a clockwork bishop because of basic videogame knowledge.  But ALL of us have died to darkness, food (lack thereof/eating monster meat or poison mushrooms and simply _not noticing_ badness), or getting hit.  All of us.

And, I said this in the other thread and got some *confused?!* faces, but I'll say it again:  WORLD-GEN SETTINGS EXIST.  This is what I meant by the "You want harder living?  Winter, all the time!  Hot and cold running hounds!  Literally!" thing--it isn't, it really, actually ISN'T, necessary to change the game _for everyone_ just to make it more difficult for YOU.  There are some selfish/unempathetic types, but the _reasonable_ jaded player knows that they can, indeed, make their OWN game harder _without_ ruining everybody else's!  Frankly, I myself would never have gotten into the game if it _was_ as hardcore-combat-oriented as some here seem to want it.  I like the sandboxness, the exploring, the base-building, the SURVIVAL.  If I want constant monsters I'll go play a damn FPS.  Dark mode is just ONE CLICK in the settings menu, and there's all kinds of stuff you can do with harsher seasons, scarcity and more of the already-existing monsters.  Go.  Have fun.  As the game itself actually says:  "Your world, your rules!" 

And if easier methods exist...yes?  And?  First off, a lot of the "obvious OP exploitable KLEI PLS NERF!" stuff...WOULDN'T EVEN _OCCUR_ TO MOST PLAYERS.  Volt Goat jelly?  Bundling wraps?  Portal character-changing exploitation?  They're not gonna know what these names _mean_.  And secondly, even if they _do_ play with wimpy baby-mode settings or overpowered anime mods...what...does this do...to YOU?  Unless you're directly playing with that person, on their server...do you care?  Does it MATTER?  

Because you yourself do not like a setting in the game, doesn't mean it should be permanently removed for everyone, forever.  Just.  Don't.  Use it.  Yeah, I know there are some gamers who are like, physically UNABLE to _not_ do the most optimal, powerful thing if it exists.  I KNOW this is a thing.  Fight it.  Fight the impulse.  You CAN do it.

Don't Starve (Together) is, as was said here earlier, a SANDBOX GAME. Which means...why don't you shape the sand the way _you_ want it, for your OWN game?  The tools exist.  They're right there.  You don't even need to use mods!  Heck, as @Terra_Zina said, you don't even necessarily have to actually change the physical settings at all--_voluntary_ restritions that you just remember in your brain, can suffice!  There's no mod or setting pack that will make the world into my March of Civilization thing, for example.  I just DO that, because I want to.

So...yeah.  In closing, it may be boring for some of us but not all, and the majority of the players are the type who don't even know they _need_ a torch yet.  Let's not scare them off by making their first night SO unpleasant...they'll never _want_ another one.  Not for money.  For the sake of sharing a good game.

...Notorious

[Crimson Chin]

32 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

First of all, THANK YOU, @Electroely.  For like...everything in that first post.  We lose perspective, around here, about what it's LIKE for new players.  We start getting so bored that some of us want to up the difficulty permanently and universally, without remembering...

Well, look up any proper let's play of people who are just learning the game--preferably one with funny commentary between friends and long enough to contain some actual LEARNING, so you can see them get better in front of you. Some classic examples include:

Like many people have said in this post, there are ways of increasing difficulty for experienced players without even affecting newer players. An example would be Oversus's terraria like "World Changing Events". This is of course not the only way, but a great idea. Anyways.... newer players that don't refund after dying and stick around to learn the game will just end up in the same situation as us eventually.

41 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

So many unready for/unknowing darkness deaths, so much difficulty due to lack of crockpot, so many forest fires wiping out the camp because they didn't know fire "jumps", ("Well, uh, the fire, it, it jumped, you see, and..." "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?  WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"), so many "I'm hungry.  LET'S ATTACK THE BIG MEAT THING!" (Facetanks a beefalo.  naked.  in a herd.)  "An egg exists over there.  I will of course take it.  WHAT DO YOU _MEAN_ IT'S CHASING ME OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD IT WON'T STOP IT HITS SO _HARD_!!"   You survived 2 days!  "I'm sure I can get my stuff back from the killer bee area if I'm fast enough."  So many red butts...so many treeguards...so many Charlies...so much fire, so much starving, so much DEATH!  And that's all just the beginner stuff.  Notice that hounds and winter aren't even mentioned here.

Well yeah, that's the issue. DST's difficulty relies on you not knowing, but when you do experience these threats a few times they become almost non-existent. You just memorize how to deal with them. Like nobody is going to face tank a beefalo or any mob really after they discover armor. These threats will maybe get them 1 or 2 times, but then they learn, and the game's difficulty just flat lines from that point on.

46 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

And WE all started out this way, at least somewhat.  Don't lie.  You did.  Maybe not ALL of these specifics--maybe you guessed about darkness in time, maybe you didn't get distracted by shiny colours away from the ACTUAL OH *BEEP* DO THIS _NOW_ OR YOUR GAME WILL END!! stuff, maybe you _do_ pay attention to durability and UI warnings, maybe you never threw yourself straight at a clockwork bishop with your face.  But ALL of us have died to darkness, food (lack thereof/eating monster meat or poison mushrooms and simply _not noticing_ badness), or getting hit.  All of us.

We sure did, but how long did that last? We die to darkness, but then we learn we just hold a torch. That's it. Its over, darkness is no longer a threat ever again. This is how almost everything in the game works. 

48 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

And, I said this in the other thread and got some *confused?!* faces, but I'll say it again:  WORLD-GEN SETTINGS EXIST.  This is what I meant by the "You want harder living?  Winter, all the time!  Hot and cold running hounds!  Literally!" thing--it isn't, it really, actually ISN'T, necessary to change the game _for everyone_ just to make it more difficult for YOU.  

I think the reason people were not happy with what you said about world gen settings solving this issue is because ... well they don't. World gen settings DEFINITELY need some work. Right now they are just vague "less or more" options that nobody really knows how to work.  World gen settings just function as a way to make your game more laggy and uncomfortable. Some of the things that are possible with world gen settings like an eternal winter as you suggested, are not a threat... because we know how to survive winter. This does not solve anything.

53 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

 There are some selfish/unempathetic types, but the _reasonable_ jaded player knows that they can, indeed, make their OWN game harder _without_ ruining everybody else's!  Frankly, I myself would never have gotten into the game if it _was_ as hardcore-combat-oriented as some here seem to want it.  I like the sandboxness, the exploring, the base-building, the SURVIVAL.  If I want constant monsters I'll go play a damn FPS.  Dark mode is just ONE CLICK in the settings menu, and there's all kinds of stuff you can do with harsher seasons, scarcity and more of the already-existing monsters.  Go.  Have fun.  As the game itself actually says:  "Your world, your rules!" 

Well, I am definitely all for some accessibility, but the game IS technically advertised as an "uncompromising survival game". Like Sketched said, the devs really don't seem to concerned with making the game more new player friendly. It is not. It is very unforgiving until you MEMORIZE what is right and wrong. Like Oversus pointed out, that difficulty isn't even fun. How would a player be expected to know they instantly die from darkness. And again I'd like to bring up Oversus's idea. That wouldn't even affect new players.

Just like the endless winter you suggested, eternal darkness is not a solution because we know how to survive in the darkness, because just like winter or any season really, it relies on you not knowing how to survive it to be challenging. 

59 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

And if easier methods exist...yes?  And?  First off, a lot of the "obvious OP exploitable KLEI PLS NERF!" stuff...WOULDN'T EVEN _OCCUR_ TO MOST PLAYERS.  Volt Goat jelly?  Bundling wraps?  Portal character-changing exploitation?  If the average--as in, doesn't post HERE, doesn't even know there IS a here, wouldn't _care_ if they did know--player hears these phrases, this is what'll happen.  They're gonna mistake beefalo or no-eyed deer for the volt goats, not know what bundling wrap IS let alone anything about the bee queen (most would assume you'd piss off whatever was hiding in the giant beehive by using the ATTACK option, with a SPEAR.  Hammer?  That's _wiki_ knowledge) and think by "portal" you mean "that thing that brings you back to life".   And secondly, even if they _do_ play with wimpy baby-mode settings or overpowered anime mods...what...does this do...to YOU?  Unless you're directly playing with them...do you care?  Does it MATTER?  

The thing is newer players WILL EVENTAULLY LEARN. I don't fully understand this logic, new players are the least likely to stick around, and if they do stick around will just learn and end up in the same situation as us. Like Sketched said, this is one of the ways DST fails as uhh... very limited.. sandbox, there are definitely other ways to do something, but they are just tedious and unfun to do. The game is designed to be endlessly replayable, but relies on memory for quite literally all of its challenge. After a few play throughs things just don't work anymore.

I have nothing against people playing the game the way they want to play it, but mods are definitely not the solution. But with that logic, does it really matter how new players are affected if they are going to be using OP mod characters? New players are definitely important, but they are going to stick around if they like what they see... and if not they will most likely refund. That is why designing content ENTIRELY for them is just silly to me. Its upsetting that so many people seem to get behind this. I definitely understand how important new players are, but there are so many dedicated players that have.. nothing left. 

1 hour ago, CaptainChaotica said:

 Heck, as @Terra_Zina said, you don't even necessarily have to actually change the physical settings at all--_voluntary_ restritions that you just remember in your brain, can suffice!  There's no mod or setting pack that will make the world into my March of Civilization thing, for example.  I just DO that, because I want to.

Not sure I should have to cripple myself to make the "uncompromising survival game" challenging.

1 hour ago, CaptainChaotica said:

So...yeah.  In closing, it may be boring for some of us but not all, and the majority of the players are the type who don't even know they _need_ a torch yet.  Let's not scare them off by making their first night SO unpleasant...they'll never _want_ another one.  Not for money.  For the joy of sharing and spreading a good game.

Well with that logic, the first night would already have been unpleasant as they would have died from darkness. As pointed out, that was probably pretty unfun already. If they stick around they would come back and learn that you need a torch... and that's it. Darkness isn't a threat anymore. You could say something like this about pretty much every threat in the game. "Do x to survive y."

Really what I am trying to say is that DST is so heavily reliant on not knowing something to be difficult, that it just absolutely kills its replay value. A game meant to be challenging and played endlessly should not entirely rely on you not being aware of something you would have figured out on the first play through.

[CaptainChaotica]

Okay, so...

1.  First off, if the game is hard enough to challenge _us_, newbies would NEVER PLAY IT AT ALL.  

2.  It IS still considered uncompromising, by new players.  As it IS.  That means, with its current settings, rules, mechanics, etc. "It's never stable!"  "You can't let your guard down for a SECOND!"  "Why can't this game ever be NICE?!"  Bitterness about certain materials needing to be carried on you all the time, having to watch the UI, having to always think and pay attention...

Meaning, that if we up the _base_, permanent, universal difficulty to suit some of US...new players will never enjoy it.  You're supposed to be dumb and die but then LEARN, and have a chance.  If it's legit, like, ACTUALLY difficult to make a torch right from the get-go, then what do you think people who didn't even know you NEEDED one, let alone how to start _preparing_ to make one in the future, would think?  

I get that it's a balancing act between us being bored and accessibility selling out common denominator fairness to new players, but it IS a balancing act.  A lot of people will be legit ANGRY, and think they wasted their money, and _delete the game_ if it's so hard you can't even learn from playing.  We'll get disappointed groups of friends who all thought they were gonna play something fun together, becoming bitter and shutting the game down forever.  It's a tough line to walk, but it IS a balancing act. I don't wanna make people sad and angry. I'm not talking about sales.  I'm talking about PEOPLE, and how sad it would be to ruin what _could_ have been an awesome gaming experience, a new fandom, maybe even learning a new community!--if only their first experience hadn't been THAT bad.

And like I said, it's already pretty bad.  LOTS of people get super frustrated at dying on the first night, and I have a feeling that some of the ones who do those Let's Plays I like, _only_ try again BECAUSE they're a YouTuber/streamer and people (kinda) pay them for entertainment. 

I'll give you the WorldGen settings, definitely.  They ARE indeed flawed.  Why the heck they haven't gotten a rehaul yet in the middle of all the other stuff I don't know, but they haven't.  However...there's a realy good reason why I emphasise changint the world gen settings:

NOT EVERYONE CAN USE MODS!!

And then we're back to HAVING to change the whole game, forever, permanently, _for everyone_ just to make ONE person happy, and it's all ruined and awful again. So I say "Turn up hounds and use permanent winter" because the obvious answer to "Why don't you just download 'Hard Mode' from the workshop?  Here's the link." is "I'm on PS4."

It ain't perfect, but I'd rather tell people to use flawed systems that already exist in the game, than be like "_I_ want it this way so you MUST change it, Klei.  I'm ordering you."  (some threads here really do have that tone...)  Yes, it does GET easy.  But only if you actually HAVE a chance to get experience!

TL;DR:  I speak for the wimps, for the wimps have no forum accounts!  And because noobs should have a chance to have fun too.

...Notorious

[WoodieMain45684]

45 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

NOT EVERYONE CAN USE MODS!!

?

Can you not? Why not? Just curious....

45 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

"I'm on PS4.

 

OH that's a whole other topic to discuss it seems. I forget a lot about these people to be honest. But do people who do play this way care about the games balance? I'm not in the scene here, so I wouldn't have the slightest idea.

[watermelen671]

I was about to post an "Ah Snap, Here We Go Again"...but I honestly cannot be bothered to.

Also GOOD GRIEF THESE WALLS OF TEXT!!

[cantdeletethis]

everyone whos really interested / wants to actually play the game will eventually do research and improve every time they play.

even casual players will learn to grow at somepoint,

and then they would leave the game, just because there isnt much things left to do at their perspectives 

limitation by yourself is just limiting stuff and replaying same game, not generously "more" fun and challenging contents

if klei had to focus on new players why would they make such thing as gorge or forge events that requires complex teamplay?

it is important to let new players enjoy, but at same time dst has to keep old players interested on game

[Ermac__]

People are kinda making a mountain out of a molehill. Nobody wants new players to die every millisecond for their first day playing. Honestly, they don't even have to touch the game as it is now before the second autumn. Just add more challenging biome further from spawn(which might be what they have planned for RoT), dangerous events, and bosses/waves once you start getting past the first year.

[cantdeletethis]

also, one thing

no difficult and promising content update = less future experience for new players

[Canis]

Honestly, I'd be down for something along the lines of an optional "Expert Mode", which makes major tweaks to game mechanics and mobs. That'd please everyone.

[Starlogy]

4 hours ago, WoodieMain45684 said:

?

Can you not? Why not? Just curious....

[56933043043]

4 hours ago, Canis said:

Honestly, I'd be down for something along the lines of an optional "Expert Mode", which makes major tweaks to game mechanics and mobs. That'd please everyone.

The lesson here is that DST needs to crib some more content from Terraria tbh

[Maslak]

18 hours ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

like I dropped (for the time being) the Terraria you mentioned - why? Its building stations aren't very intuitive and the sheer amount of building materials overwhelmed me. Thus what you deem creative design as a positive for some might not be such a positive, good game design. More so Terraria capitalizes on memory as well, as you need to know what to combine and from where to obtain it - aka a myriad of sources - and yes, in my case, that was part of the overwhelming factor too.

Guide NPC exists for that reason, he's way more than just a guy you kill to fight a boss. His hints are a great way of telling player how to progress but not giving them everything on the plate. And every item that can be used in crafting has material written in its description. You just bring these items to Guide and he'll tell you what you can craft with it and what crafting station/tools you'll need for that. It also works with modded items, I'm sure. And some may say this is a bad idea, having so much recipes that you need to create NPC for this reason. It is not. It's better to do this than limit the game's possibilities and building/decor items variety. In fact I really liked bringing new stuff to Guide to see what I can make from it.

9 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

I was about to post an "Ah Snap, Here We Go Again"...but I honestly cannot be bothered to.

Also GOOD GRIEF THESE WALLS OF TEXT!!

Thank you for your meaningful addition. Watermelen was here.

I found the thread interesting to read. I'm all up for late game difficulty increase, but I don't know how should it work. I don't know if it's possible, too. For example it would be hard to improve fighting, because in this game combat means running back and fourth and hitting enemy. 

I think that Unnatural Selection mod had the idea of hardmode, but we know how that whole project went. 

[Sir Noel]

1 hour ago, Maslak said:

Guide NPC exists for that reason, he's way more than just a guy you kill to fight a boss. His hints are a great way of telling player how to progress but not giving them everything on the plate. And every item that can be used in crafting has material written in its description. You just bring these items to Guide and he'll tell you what you can craft with it and what crafting station/tools you'll need for that. It also works with modded items, I'm sure. And some may say this is a bad idea, having so much recipes that you need to create NPC for this reason. It is not. It's better to do this than limit the game's possibilities and building/decor items variety. In fact I really liked bringing new stuff to Guide to see what I can make from it.

Just wanna chip in and say something about Terraria. I went into the game completely blind back in the olden days, and as per the rest of us was completely clueless. Then I discovered the guide, and his helpful tips really pushed me into discovering these vague things he was talking about. I protected him more then anyone else just for this reason! It really helped me get that push I needed to wonder 'what even is in this crazy 2D world'?

I didn't know right away that you could bring materials to him and see what they could craft, but really I ended up being curious and just put stuff in myself, and started making the obvious connections. The game never forced me to know that, and I really appreciated it at the time. Now with 1k+ hours, I really never use the guide anymore but I can always respect why he was there in the first place, since he continues to help new players and even me sometimes! Modded items do work with him, which is just a plus all around. I hate looking up stuff, and still had too eventually to know all the ins and outs, but the guide is probably one of my favorite NPCs just for how much he does, outside of a being a boss summoner. Experienced players say bye to him, while newcomers welcome him with open arms. And who knows, with 1.4 on the way, maybe I'll be revisiting my old pal' for a nice chat!

Also, on Terraria's progression, It's definitely the best for me. You become so accustomed to the world around you, and after waffle boi, everything changes. It's the same world you once knew but with a grim twist. This was really cool back when I killed WoF for the first time; I was just so mesmerized with all the new stuff! Bosses are marks to show how far you are in the world, and you're always improving your tools, weaponry, armor, etc as it goes on and as you defeat more and more bosses. Obviously this eventually got stale for me, but modded Terraria was right outside the door, and I loved it! Experienced players have a place to go after knowing everything about regular Terraria, which is pretty nice I'd say. Obviously DST is a bit different from this but Terraria does a lot of things right and I will always love it for what it brings.

[Crimson Chin]

15 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Okay, so...

1.  First off, if the game is hard enough to challenge _us_, newbies would NEVER PLAY IT AT ALL.  

That isn't true, I already have said that there are ways of increasing difficulty without affecting new players at all.

15 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

2.  It IS still considered uncompromising, by new players.  As it IS.  That means, with its current settings, rules, mechanics, etc. "It's never stable!"  "You can't let your guard down for a SECOND!"  "Why can't this game ever be NICE?!"  Bitterness about certain materials needing to be carried on you all the time, having to watch the UI, having to always think and pay attention...

Not exactly a good thing if a majority of the player base thinks it loses the "uncompromising survival game" selling point after a few play throughs. Again you seem to be thinking as if these new players are going to stay new forever, but that's not true. They will learn and end up like us. Like I said, a lot of new people don't even stick around after a few unfun deaths, and the ones that do learn and play until the game is no longer a challenge at all. That is... the issue with designing a game to be endlessly replayable, but relying on the player not knowing something they would have instantly learned from 1 play through.

15 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Meaning, that if we up the _base_, permanent, universal difficulty to suit some of US...new players will never enjoy it.  You're supposed to be dumb and die but then LEARN, and have a chance.  If it's legit, like, ACTUALLY difficult to make a torch right from the get-go, then what do you think people who didn't even know you NEEDED one, let alone how to start _preparing_ to make one in the future, would think?  

Again, this logic is very weird because new players aren't going to stay new forever. These examples are like... 1st in game day basics........... You learn to make a torch in like the 1st minute, you hear the sound effect play after picking some grass and twigs.  The people who don't know they need a torch WILL know in quite literally 6 minutes. Then as I said, darkness is never again a threat.

15 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

I get that it's a balancing act between us being bored and accessibility selling out common denominator fairness to new players, but it IS a balancing act.  A lot of people will be legit ANGRY, and think they wasted their money, and _delete the game_ if it's so hard you can't even learn from playing.  We'll get disappointed groups of friends who all thought they were gonna play something fun together, becoming bitter and shutting the game down forever.  It's a tough line to walk, but it IS a balancing act. I don't wanna make people sad and angry. I'm not talking about sales.  I'm talking about PEOPLE, and how sad it would be to ruin what _could_ have been an awesome gaming experience, a new fandom, maybe even learning a new community!--if only their first experience hadn't been THAT bad.

Again, there are other ways of increasing difficulty without affecting new players, not sure why you are so hung up on that. But anyways, people will always get angry, some people will just realize this game Is not for them, and like I said... more than a few times, the people that stick around end up like us. These imaginary sob stories about friends groups getting disappointed probably won't happen because the game is advertised as an uncompromising survival game, if they aren't into that kind of thing I doubt they would have bought it in the 1st place. Besides, I'd say that's all just part of the fun of a challenging multiplayer game, failing and going down together. But yeah, I don't think making the game get progressively harder or a "hard mode" or something would really send the day 1 Wilsons in garlands crying to steam for a refund. The truth is these players would have probably refunded the game anyways..

15 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

And like I said, it's already pretty bad.  LOTS of people get super frustrated at dying on the first night, and I have a feeling that some of the ones who do those Let's Plays I like, _only_ try again BECAUSE they're a YouTuber/streamer and people (kinda) pay them for entertainment. 

Well yeah, I have said how I think DST's memory difficulty can be unfun even if you don't know anything yet. Most things are just unavoidable. But again, players that aren't into that are just going to refund. You ever notice how lets players never really stick around, the game just kind of ends when they have learned everything they really need to know. Things stop working on them as they continue playing, which again isn't a good thing when the game is meant to be played endlessly.

15 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

 I'll give you the WorldGen settings, definitely.  They ARE indeed flawed.  Why the heck they haven't gotten a rehaul yet in the middle of all the other stuff I don't know, but they haven't.  

Yeah definitely agree, hopefully Klei does improve them.

16 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

NOT EVERYONE CAN USE MODS!!

And then we're back to HAVING to change the whole game, forever, permanently, _for everyone_ just to make ONE person happy, and it's all ruined and awful again. So I say "Turn up hounds and use permanent winter" because the obvious answer to "Why don't you just download 'Hard Mode' from the workshop?  Here's the link." is "I'm on PS4."

Haha well to be fair, you were the one using mods as a solution in your first post. This really just strengthens my point about mods not solving anything, console players are important too.

Once again, there are ways of increasing difficulty without affecting everyone. Even though I think its fair to expect the uncompromising survival game to be difficult.

16 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

It ain't perfect, but I'd rather tell people to use flawed systems that already exist in the game, than be like "_I_ want it this way so you MUST change it, Klei.  I'm ordering you."  (some threads here really do have that tone...)  Yes, it does GET easy.  But only if you actually HAVE a chance to get experience!

These are suggestions, people trying to improve the game. I don't think anyone is ORDERING Klei to do that, but Klei has definitely done some silly things in the past. Also, I wouldn't want to recommend someone to use a very flawed system in game, wouldn't that just scare them away? Lets be honest... heh... world gen settings are pretty bad.

The bit about it getting easier with experience is the entire issue though. Those new players that never get to experience it.... would never have experienced it because they weren't interested enough to keep playing.. so why does that matter? Experienced players interested enough to keep playing LOSE interest because the game's replay value is destroyed by the issues I have been talking about.

16 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

TL;DR:  I speak for the wimps, for the wimps have no forum accounts!  And because noobs should have a chance to have fun too.

Nobody is trying to kick the "wimps" out. I hope that's not what you think I'm trying to do, but these "wimps" should not be the ONLY focus, because this creates this weird unnecessary loop where new players will leave if they aren't interested, stay if they are and learn. When they eventually become experienced players, they will end up in the same boat as us.  Noobs can have fun, but what happens when they get to the point we are at? It really only takes a few play throughs.

[56933043043]

7 hours ago, Maslak said:

I think that Unnatural Selection mod had the idea of hardmode, but we know how that whole project went. 

I'd call the end product a mistake of nature.

[watermelen671]

10 hours ago, Maslak said:

Thank you for your meaningful addition. Watermelen was here.

Spoiler

I try my best.

In all honesty I was expecting this to be another flame war that inevitably ends with numerous casualties and Joe locking down the thread...but I was surprised to find people having a civilized debate with actual evidence supporting their arguments. So...continue discussing.

[Boomsl0l]

39 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I try my best.

In all honesty I was expecting this to be another flame war that inevitably ends with numerous casualties and Joe locking down the thread...but I was surprised to find people having a civilized debate with actual evidence supporting their arguments. So...continue discussing.

Thanks for the permission, doc.

[chiicone]

If we add things to make the game more difficult (for advanced players), they will be happy at first, be after a while they will learn how to overcome the difficulties (or find a easy way to kill a boss, glitch and etc..) and will complain once again that the game is not that hard.

 

And then it will happen over and over again. 

 

I'm not a noob, but I don't have that thounds of hours played, and I like the way the game is, honestly. I can play with some that are good at the game, at the same time I can enjoy playing with someone who just played for the first time.

 

As a lot of said here, you can make your own game hard. You just need to be more creative about that. Or use the tools the game offers when generating a new world.

[Ermac__]

1 hour ago, chiicone said:

If we add things to make the game more difficult (for advanced players), they will be happy at first, be after a while they will learn how to overcome the difficulties (or find a easy way to kill a boss, glitch and etc..) and will complain once again that the game is not that hard.

 

And then it will happen over and over again. 

 

I'm not a noob, but I don't have that thounds of hours played, and I like the way the game is, honestly. I can play with some that are good at the game, at the same time I can enjoy playing with someone who just played for the first time.

 

As a lot of said here, you can make your own game hard. You just need to be more creative about that. Or use the tools the game offers when generating a new world.

By add things, do you mean new content to challenge older players...because that is content that new players can enjoy too, that they can work towards and hit themselves. Why is that a bad thing again?

[WoodieMain45684]

1 hour ago, chiicone said:

If we add things to make the game more difficult (for advanced players), they will be happy at first, be after a while they will learn how to overcome the difficulties (or find a easy way to kill a boss, glitch and etc..) and will complain once again that the game is not that hard.

 

And then it will happen over and over again. 

Eh, not really. Most of the time people complain about unbalanced things because they are comparing it to a baseline. If you nerf the item in question then it moves closer to said baseline overall. But I do understand your point, and it (could?) happen. I just don't see it happening with the people who complain about things in this particular game. The only time where I could see it continuing is in the addition of new content, and how it compares to already present content. Which happens quite often as new items are added.

Though to be fair, if a glitch is found, I would consider changing it more on the line of bugfixing than balance.

I also agree with a lot of the other guys who say that balance changes can be made to affect experts, but not new players.