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Diagonal Access (is it a bug?)


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8 hours ago, Cairath said:

That doesn't mean it's not a bug. People were so certain that sieve temperatures will never get fixed "because it's always worked like that"  and see what happened.

To me it's definitely unintended and silly. Expecting a fix for that one day.

noooooo devs dont fix this its the only way to make vacuums rather fast instead of waiting LITERAL cycles to wait for pumps to create one.

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5 minutes ago, Ellilea said:

Out of the two, I think storing food in a CO2/Chlorine pit is less ridiculous than storing it in 1 square of void between walls from where duplicants can take it out and conveyor chute can throw it in never disrupting the void lol.

True, but consider if a less extreme form of botulism (nonfatal, but something like a -6 to athletics) was added to the game, and it grew on unrefrigerated (and not super hot) food spontaneously except in chlorine and oxygen atmosphere. You'd want either a fridge, chlorine packet, or freezer, usually having a fridge until you can get the chlorine trapped, which would make the fridge useful.

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41 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

All game mechanics are up for dispute, nothing is sacred.

You seem to be unaware that there is the release of this game in a few days....

9 hours ago, Cairath said:

That doesn't mean it's not a bug. People were so certain that sieve temperatures will never get fixed "because it's always worked like that"  and see what happened.

Sieve output temperature never was a bug. It was a design decision and one that some people did not like. A bug is something unintentional, a design decision is very much intentional.

Calling something that you do not like, but that is a design decision, a "bug" is pretty much an attempt to fake some additional "validity" for your argument.  

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1 hour ago, Gurgel said:

Sieve output temperature never was a bug. It was a design decision and one that some people did not like. A bug is something unintentional, a design decision is very much intentional.

Calling something that you do not like, but that is a design decision, a "bug" is pretty much an attempt to fake some additional "validity" for your argument.  

Stop being so passive aggressive to people who have a different opinion. I don't need need some "fake validity", I don't run around yelling that something should or should not be changed.

Firstly, I didn't call sieve temp a bug. It was an example of "it's been there for so long it'll never be touched". Secondly, I'm not calling diagonal access a bug because I don't like it, I'm calling it a bug because I don't think that sweepers reaching through corners with their full power are not intentional, nor is reaching for items. I'm all for corner building - heck, it'd be awfully annoying to finish building anything that has actual corners. The reaching part seems like a consequence of diagonal building and not exactly the main intended mechanic.

 

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3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

boil at high pressure and seal

I cook my food and seal it in 20 atmospheres of pressure of chlorine using that mechanic so no problems here I guess.

That made me think, food poisoning could be able to be killed by a third thing: high pressure environment. Preserve it even in oxygen!

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35 minutes ago, Cairath said:

Stop being so passive aggressive to people who have a different opinion. I don't need need some "fake validity", I don't run around yelling that something should or should not be changed.

I don't like dishonest and manipulative "argumentation" techniques and I am calling them out. You do not get a free pass. 

A "bug" is something where the software behaves different from intention and in faulty ways. A bug typically needs to be fixed, no discussion. Calling behavior you would like to see changed, when it clearly is a design decision, a "bug" is a dishonest and manipulative attempt to discredit anybody that could have a different opinion and as such is not acceptable at all.

This behavior is not a bug.

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Just now, Gurgel said:

I don't like dishonest and manipulative "argumentation" techniques and I am calling them out. You do not get a free pass. 

A "bug" is something where the software behaves different from intention and in faulty ways. A bug typically needs to be fixed. Calling behavior you would like to see changed, when it clearly is a design decision, a "bug" is a dishonest and manipulative attempt to discredit anybody that could have a different opinion and as such is not acceptable at all.

This behavior is not a bug.

Instead you call out everyone who disagrees with you, best strategy indeed. I'm a software developer, but thanks for the definition of a bug -- I'm afraid that you've given an incorrect one, it certainly isn't a "dishonest and manipulative attempt to discredit anybody that could have a different opinion". 

Was nice talking to you, but I'll pass on any further conversation :)

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46 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

I cook my food and seal it in 20 atmospheres of pressure of chlorine using that mechanic so no problems here I guess.

That made me think, food poisoning could be able to be killed by a third thing: high pressure environment. Preserve it even in oxygen!

You misunderstand; it's boiling at high pressures to kill the bacteria that causes botulism, the pressure itself is irrelevant except that it raises the boiling temperature.

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My cooks grill/gas range their food in high pressure chlorine as well, so that part of the physics seems represented. I guess oxygen is a no go.

Here's how much diagonal access nerfs would effect the kinds of things people are concerned about.

Before

Spoiler

before.thumb.png.492e644ad76f925e24233633aad82872.png

After

Spoiler

after.thumb.png.7a8c421e6ce33416cf58f41f4c2d59eb.png

 

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There are still a few borderline mechanics that somewhat obsolete their alternatives that devs haven't considered to be detrimental going into launch.

- CO2 food storage

- PH2O bottle offgassing

- liquid locks

 

Diagonal access looks like it was meant to be an intended anti-frustration feature than anything else. I'd say compared to the above mechanics it's at least unique and helps compact otherwise unnecessarily bulk in your designs. Changing any of these after launch would be majorly disruptive so we'll see how they want this to play out in a few days.

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26 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

There are still a few borderline mechanics that somewhat obsolete their alternatives that devs haven't considered to be detrimental going into launch.

- CO2 food storage

- PH2O bottle offgassing

- liquid locks

 

Diagonal access looks like it was meant to be an intended anti-frustration feature than anything else. I'd say compared to the above mechanics it's at least unique and helps compact otherwise unnecessarily bulk in your designs. Changing any of these after launch would be majorly disruptive so we'll see how they want this to play out in a few days.

We don't know just from them not changing things that they don't consider them detrimental; the devs could have a complete, complex plan to address any one of these three, and just not be ready to start on it until after release. I'd especially suspect that food storage is going to get a look at, considering that the fridge actually is currently severely bugged and can be exploited for crazy heat deletion, so it's likely the devs will put some attention into updating it.

I'd also really, really hope they eventually do a little buffing of the tools for airlock creation, cause right now, pumps are weak at removing gases while doors are weak at stopping them mixing, which is a bad combination when you want to pump away gases from an intermediary space and leads to proper airlocks being about twice the intuitive size/complexity and very risky for dupe suffocation.

Of course, the bottle offgassing is the worst offender for something new players wouldn't expect (normally in the real world, it's a good idea to put gross/toxic stuff in a containment pool) that makes things easier primarily for experienced players, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it got changed too; hopefully terraria get buffed, cause a lot of what made them really work was bugs/exploits, and some of that's already gotten fixed (element conversion).

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3 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

What happens with the CO2 the gas range should emit  in your room?

It builds up on the bottom row or two. I'm at 60~80kg of CO2 per tile currently. I was going to cycle it out with a pump but there are no germs so I left it this way since it's also sterile. (I only started using the gas range yesterday for ~1000 cycles, so I hadn't considered its CO2 at the time).

Spoiler

gas.thumb.png.e3a146d1fe8774926c4fe18852f0e203.png

 

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7 hours ago, Nebbie said:

We don't know just from them not changing things that they don't consider them detrimental; the devs could have a complete, complex plan to address any one of these three, and just not be ready to start on it until after release. I'd especially suspect that food storage is going to get a look at, considering that the fridge actually is currently severely bugged and can be exploited for crazy heat deletion, so it's likely the devs will put some attention into updating it.

I'd also really, really hope they eventually do a little buffing of the tools for airlock creation, cause right now, pumps are weak at removing gases while doors are weak at stopping them mixing, which is a bad combination when you want to pump away gases from an intermediary space and leads to proper airlocks being about twice the intuitive size/complexity and very risky for dupe suffocation.

Of course, the bottle offgassing is the worst offender for something new players wouldn't expect (normally in the real world, it's a good idea to put gross/toxic stuff in a containment pool) that makes things easier primarily for experienced players, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it got changed too; hopefully terraria get buffed, cause a lot of what made them really work was bugs/exploits, and some of that's already gotten fixed (element conversion).

Would be nice if they were to address these but changing any of these after release is going to piss people off. Screwing bases by patching after a stable release is going to be a bad look if they go down that route. Of course I am making assumptions as well but all of those have been around since the beginning, and they've had 2-3 years to consider these mechanics yet they'd sooner rename a building twice.

It's arguable that nuking peoples' bases even shortly after release will be more detrimental than not touching these mechanics unless they do so while adding large amounts of new content.

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The problem is not diagonal accessibility but the inconsistencies that arise when you look at how other forms of matter behave in these scenarios. To liquids and gases this is a barrier that can not be crossed so it is reasonable to assume that other forms of matter should not be able to.

In my oppinion either all forms of (inanimate) matter should be able to move directionally or none. The current state is kind of immersion breaking.

edited for formation

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19 hours ago, Alricio said:

The problem is not diagonal accessibility but the inconsistencies that arise when you look at how other forms of matter behave in these scenarios. To liquids and gases this is a barrier that can not be crossed so it is reasonable to assume that other forms of matter should not be able to.

In my oppinion either all forms of (inanimate) matter should be able to move directionally or none. The current state is kind of immersion breaking.

edited for formation

This is a very good point.  Perhaps it isn't diagonal access that is the bug, but that gasses, heat, fluids, etc. cannot move diagonally.  If they were to be able to move diagonally, the exploits would no longer function in the manner they do.  Additionally, other exploits such as low mass liquid locks wouldn't work either as the gas could pass through diagonally.  If you wanted to build liquid locks, you would have to use fully immersed locks or utilize viscogel.

I expect there could be an increase in computational time if the simulations took diagonals into account, however, I'm not sure how severe it would be.  Are there any other issues that people could see arising from having the simulation accord for diagonals?

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55 minutes ago, Ecu said:

This is a very good point.  Perhaps it isn't diagonal access that is the bug, but that gasses, heat, fluids, etc. cannot move diagonally.  If they were to be able to move diagonally, the exploits would no longer function in the manner they do.  Additionally, other exploits such as low mass liquid locks wouldn't work either as the gas could pass through diagonally.  If you wanted to build liquid locks, you would have to use fully immersed locks or utilize viscogel.

I expect there could be an increase in computational time if the simulations took diagonals into account, however, I'm not sure how severe it would be.  Are there any other issues that people could see arising from having the simulation accord for diagonals?

I'm not a programmer, but I imaging diagonal movement exponentially increases the potential has cell interactions. Each tile of gas suddenly has double the possible places it could go and each of those surrounding tiles have twice as many places they could occupy. 

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On 7/27/2019 at 7:06 AM, Nightinggale said:

I'm not convinced I would call it a bug. It's more in line with layouts used by advanced players. 

And therein lies the problem, when your advanced layouts rely on goofy tricks that bypass game mechanics, you will turn a lot of players off. When you have such a cheap way to solve what is intended to be a fun challenge for the player, well, it's not as much fun. 

How about a situation where you don't want sweepers/dupes to be able to access other rooms, but contrary to reasonable expectations supported by the game mechanics, it happens. Then you have to tinker around placing tiles by trial and error to find out how to fix the issue. That's not fun, that's not intelligent engineering. 

It breaks a fundamental rule: a wall blocks access. It replaces it with a much more vague rule where sometimes walls don't block access (depending on the angle) and to figure out what configurations achieve the desired effect you have to use trial and error, you can't just see the issue at a glance.

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14 minutes ago, axxionx12 said:

I'm not a programmer, but I imaging diagonal movement exponentially increases the potential has cell interactions. Each tile of gas suddenly has double the possible places it could go and each of those surrounding tiles have twice as many places they could occupy. 

Sure.  However, depending on how the simulation works, that may not actually increase the computational stress exponentially.  Regardless, it would definitely be a increase in computational stress.  It is just a matter of how significant that increase is.

Edit:

While this isn't exactly related to the simulation of liquids/gasses, it does showcase how exponentially increased complexity may not cause an exponentially increased computational stress [here].

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1 hour ago, bonzaiferroni said:

It breaks a fundamental rule: a wall blocks access. It replaces it with a much more vague rule where sometimes walls don't block access (depending on the angle) and to figure out what configurations achieve the desired effect you have to use trial and error, you can't just see the issue at a glance.

But it's completely predictable. It's a strait line from the center of the transfer arm and it's 45 degree from horizontal.

I don't disagree with you as much as you think, but fixing this problem will cause other problems, in particularly building tiles in a corner will become really annoying. Fixing that problem will result in precisely what you are against: sometimes there is one rule and sometimes there is another rule. Right now there is one standard rule for all cases.

2 hours ago, axxionx12 said:

I'm not a programmer, but I imaging diagonal movement exponentially increases the potential has cell interactions. Each tile of gas suddenly has double the possible places it could go and each of those surrounding tiles have twice as many places they could occupy. 

Each cell will have 8 cells to interact with instead of 4. You said it yourself that it's twice as many. That's not exponentially. However twice the CPU load from something, which already has too high CPU load is still really bad.

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