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I'm worried about Klei


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People complaining about Warly's upsides clearly haven't played him with godmode off. This is one thing I discussed with my friend @Gabriel_Dreyer a while ago:

Most of the new Meta characters are an absolute pain to play.

This applies to Wortox, Wormwood and, recently, Warly:

Wortox is an absolute unit in terms of Healing, but he still requires you to either switch your entire playstyle around eating souls (which are a horrible food source) and sanity management, or... grind double as much food to stay fed. He has the same downside as Webber, but lacks the Spiders, which makes many cheese-strats impossible. Wortox is useful for the team, in the very specific niche of team healing, but on his own, he's arguably worse than average. He still requires skill to play, and is not by any means a forgiving character.

Wormwood is a Living Log factory, and his defenses are quite interesting, allowing for some crowd control like never before, but he can't heal. Wormwood's only viable form of healing depends on science stations, so his early game is absurdly fickle and combat-avoidant. Even hound waves pose a threat to this character. I don't see him as OP at all. Sure, he allows people to mass-produce Planters and Dark Swords without having to grind for Tree Guards, but that in itself does not compensate for his massive downside. Wormwood is useful for the team, in the very specific niche of living logs and farmplots, but on his own, He's arguably worse than average. He still requires skill to play, and is not by any means a forgiving character.

Warly allows any character to reach never-before-seen heights and caps, which is absurdly cool and worrying... unless you consider how much planning and time it takes to actually get any of his good recipes. @Sunset Skye already went into a painstakingly amout of detail as to how feasible it is to get his recipes running, I'd only like to add to that the fact that... most players don't even have a coordinated team and competent Cook. It's super neat to think best-case scenario, but 9 times out of 10, it ain't easy to get all things done. DST has many things you want to prioritize, and adding farms to the equation is really finicky, most good players just ignore them and rush berries. Warly is useful for the team,  but only if you have the very specific niche of farming well developed. On his own, he's arguably worse than average. He still requires skill to play, and is not by any means a forgiving character.

There are three sets of people in this game:
-The new players who think the new characters are neat, then die horribly playing them. (These suggest Warly to be buffed.)
-The "3000 hours veterans" who paradoxically dislike playing the same way everytime, but also dislike having characters that make things faster.(These suggest Warly is OP)
-The people who tested Warly without godmode on. (Warly is ok, he can be exploited, but he's not broken until really late in the game, where it's already kinda grindy and boring anyway)

Don't call something OP just because you've spawned everything in and it dealt 400 DPS. If it takes effort, it's okay to make things faster.
 

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Ppl forget there's vegetable rng and then duplicating rng with the bird... Just because everyone with megabases and farms, surviving 3000+ days have access to broken combos doesn't mean everyone else does. 

Not everyone plays this game with a full server of experts lol.

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I must join to discussion after testing Warly (without godmode, first run alone, second run with teammate Wormwood). 
And what i should say... He is NOT OP. 
Pepper, onion, garlic and aspagarus are rare veggies (same rare as dragonfruit) and even with Wormwood it took for me whole first autumn and spring to get some pepper spices. Just think: if you have 9 improved farms, you need feed to bird about 5-6 veggies/fruits every time to cultivate ONE needed veggy/fruit. 
His specific recipes nice and let him full focus at cooking and gain benefits from it (with cordon bleu he does not need Eyebrella, with glowberry mousse he does not need miner hat). 
He good and balanced character, some hard for new players (cause he need to focus at food gathering at start of game). 
Of course, when you have 1k+ megabase you can exploit with Warly... but this works with any character, no? For example Wickerbottom, which become powerful more earlier than Warly (say "hello" to her books, but we cant judge her, cause she did not get refresh). 
So in conclusion i must say that Warly is perfect balanced character for current versions of game (beta and live). He has preferences for teammates (Wickerbottom and Wormwood) but even with them he nice balaced and works good.  For solo player he can be some hard at start, but if you focus at cooking it will give you benefits for your work.
And I say THANK YOU to Klei for this great character refresh for DST. 
 

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Did you play just as warly for this test? No other characters? If so that is incorrect testing.

There is one thing you failed to mention:

You forgot the celestial portal.

Solo or Multiplayer it doesnt matter what character you play.

You can farm all materials and bundle wrap, swap to warly make food bundle wrap it again swap off.

For spiced food, you dont even need bundle wraps, just spice powdercake that crap never spoils

I havent seen anyone mention this in their reviews.

Yes if you main warly only he is a pain in the butt to play, but there are items provided  in game where you dont have to just play him but can still reap his benefits.

Did you play just as warly for this test? No other characters? If so that is incorrect testing.

There is one thing you failed to mention:

You forgot the celestial portal.

Solo or Multiplayer it doesnt matter what character you play.

You can farm all materials and bundle wrap, swap to warly make food bundle wrap it again swap off.

For spiced food, you dont even need bundle wraps, just spice powdercake that crap never spoils

I havent seen anyone mention this in their reviews.

Yes if you main warly only he is a pain in the butt to play, but there are items provided  in game where you dont have to just play him but can still reap his benefits.

 

Dont include the portal then yes its a different review of the character, but I feel like you need to review him with the game as a whole not just playing him only.

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Worotx doesn't even break S tier so not sure why people complain about him when wolfgang and maxwell are in the game.

 

I'm extremely skeptical about Warly doing something to make the game easier that the top tiers don't already do. His buffs require managing farms which are already inefficient. Honestly, the only thing that seems even remotely meta about him are his dmg reduction/amps and the shock damage buff as this opens new(possibly cheese) strategies against bosses. Otherwise what's the big deal. He sits at base all day and can cook some food that's better than classless food recipes. Food already isn't a problem and never was.

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38 minutes ago, Faultz said:

Did you play just as warly for this test? No other characters? If so that is incorrect testing.

There is one thing you failed to mention:

You forgot the celestial portal.

Solo or Multiplayer it doesnt matter what character you play.

You can farm all materials and bundle wrap, swap to warly make food bundle wrap it again swap off.

For spiced food, you dont even need bundle wraps, just spice powdercake that crap never spoils

I havent seen anyone mention this in their reviews.

Yes if you main warly only he is a pain in the butt to play, but there are items provided  in game where you dont have to just play him but can still reap his benefits.

Did you play just as warly for this test? No other characters? If so that is incorrect testing.

There is one thing you failed to mention:

You forgot the celestial portal.

Solo or Multiplayer it doesnt matter what character you play.

You can farm all materials and bundle wrap, swap to warly make food bundle wrap it again swap off.

For spiced food, you dont even need bundle wraps, just spice powdercake that crap never spoils

I havent seen anyone mention this in their reviews.

Yes if you main warly only he is a pain in the butt to play, but there are items provided  in game where you dont have to just play him but can still reap his benefits.

 

Dont include the portal then yes its a different review of the character, but I feel like you need to review him with the game as a whole not just playing him only.

 

Doesn't this just loop back around to @MarkStein argument that he's OP endgame like a majority of the top tier characters.

The only reason you would switch to him is if you farmed enough of those ingredients which means you have a large large amount of farm plots as the new veggies are rare and farms are trash at producing a lot of food, already beat bee queen have a decent spider farm going for all the silk you need to fish with, have a bee farm for spice..... I could go on 

Point being if you're at a point where you could switch to warly for food you already beat a decent portion of the game. At that point the only reason you would switch is for volt jelly s**ts and giggles. 

Hell considering I never make farms at all because, once again they are garbage and you require a large amount of them,  I'd  probably never switch to him except for honey spice or volt jelly, which at the point where you feel you have enough horns to bring him over, you probably already beat most if not all the bosses in game considering you already beat bee queen

Edit: I suppose you could skip a step and bring in wormwood, would still take a considerable amount of time since the cost of the farm plots is only a part of the reason farming is frowned upon, also wormwoods crops grow slow as molasses 

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43 minutes ago, Faultz said:

...include the portal ..

And that's why I for one say the Moon Rock Idol mechanic needs a revamp. 1x Moon Rock + 1x Purple Gem without any cool-down for Portal is way too lenient imo. There should be at least a 20-days-or-so window between possible swaps of characters. Then the actual required materials for Moon Rock Idol need be more rare and/or in greater quantities, like 1x Purple Moonlense + 5-10x Moon Rock + 2-5x Nightmare Fuel for starters. And to add an element of danger to the Portal Swap as well - as hinted by characters possibly dying in this process - I would also implement a 33% chance of you actually dying in this attempt. With mentioned elements I say the changing mechanic "abuse" some of you complain about could be elegantly solved, making advanced players really "feel" the cons of characters and not just "make X character-specific item then change to one of the S-tier characters" :encouragement:

 

PS: in the same vein as Warly's character-specific structures being usable by him alone, Winona's catapults should also require a Winona powering them/being in their 1-screen vicinity for them to actually fire - that would also balance her nicely and consistent (in regards to Warly's structures) in my view.

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On 7/25/2019 at 11:49 PM, Boomsl0l said:

This isn't just about one character being too strong (even though I think there are 4-5 characters that are way too strong). I see one of two things happening here: 1. The game becomes too hard without Warly and very frustrating. 2. The game becomes too easy with Warly and very boring

Replace Warly with "exploits related to every boss in DST" and this has been a thing for years now

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1 hour ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

And that's why I for one say the Moon Rock Idol mechanic needs a revamp

i think an interesting / on-theme limitation could be to make it so u can only offer an idol to the portal when its a New Moon. and maybe the idol could require a flower or whatever that grows (and regrows) somewhere deep in the ruins 

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21 minutes ago, Ohan said:

..maybe the idol could require a flower or whatever that grows (and regrows) somewhere..

Yes, can keep the idol as is but make it so changing character also requires an item that grows (and regrows each Full Moon for example - to keep lore consistency with Moon theme) on Moon Island. Bonus if is a mini-boss item (think on the line of MacTusk) or an item guarded by some kind of Moon Mob, maybe a kinda tough herd/pack mob (yet you could also trick somehow that mob so non-combatant players also can have access to it?). Thus changing character means something, makes you appreciate better your choice and treat it more carefully than proverbially "changing socks" like atm.

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I just spent almost the entirety of Autumn AND Spring trying to make as many of the new veggies as I could and get a 40 stack of each spice. I'm maybe 70% of the way there and still need to apply all the spices before I start on the reserve stacks. 

These new abilities are powerful but they eat up A LOT of time even if you've already prepared the farmplots and enough fertilizer. 

Any boss can be made into a cake walk with enough time and preparation by a number of different methods. There's nothing new here. 

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I believe Warly needs some major rework.

Some of you may say "oh, he's a late game character" or "it's a team game so his skills are not a problem". Well it is a problem, and I'll tell you why this one character can have major negative effects on the game.

1. It's a team game, yes! But any game that has a single new character that is able to make major changes to existing playstyle and difficulty always ends up breaking the game. Always!

2. He's not a late game character. Why? Because as much as you hate to admit it, materials to make his food aren't that hard to obtain. A solo player can make like half of his exclusive food in the 1st season! Without even trying.

3. His foods are making a lot of old characters less favourable to pick. In paper, it seems as if Warly food effects makes old character look more viable as they can compete with other characters like Wolf and Wig (unbuffed). But that doesn't actually happen does it? Instead people use Wolf and Wig and further buff them, making old characters even more unattractive.

4. The game is supposed to get harder and harder as we progress. Rather, it gets very easy from mid to late game with Warly food. 

In a cooperative game like Don't Starve, each character should have unique abilities that benefit themselves the most and teammates should rather find the best uses of these 'individual' character. What I'm saying is this, instead of making Warly a team buff'er', make him a substitute.

An unique and desirable rework would look this:

1. Warly food effects drastically increased/improved

2. Warly food effects has internal cooldown (eg, for 10-15 seconds  after receiving a buff, you cannot obtain the same buff from food, during the cooldown)

3. Warly food effects benefit only Warly

4. Warly can have more food effects (hp, sanity, hunger, etc increase)

5. Warly can have only 2 buffs present at a time.

This way, Warly can be a replacer for other characters. Say in the absence of a tank (Wigfrid). Warly can use his food effects to effectively tank for a period of time or deal good dmg in the absence of Wolfgang.

Also please don't talk about the making the game a more 'casual player' game. IMO, there has never been nothing more effective than a casual player catered system that is able to ruin a game. Casuals come and go, they don't stay, they are not the foundation, they're the one sitting on top of it, leaving after 2-3 months. Hardcore players (who the devs should concentrate on pleasing) are the foundation, they're the ones who make YouTube videos, who promote the game and advertises them.

I also think that there should be differences between single and multiplayer difficulty. Like reducing bosses HP and DMG in single player mode and increasing HP and DMG in multiplayer mode depending on the number of players allowed in the room. 

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17 hours ago, Terra_Zina said:

Oh my.

Imagine if Wickerbottom came out yesterday. Oh, it'd be a dumpster fire.

Wickerbottom is an old character, so she's ok. Warly is overpowered, though. We should nerf him /s

I mean I think that either Wickerbottom getting nerfed slightly or getting the other characters to her level of power is something we should do. The fact she's an aged old lady or her release years ago isn't making me have any mercy about her perks.

40 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

4. The game is supposed to get harder and harder as we progress. Rather, it gets very easy from mid to late game with Warly food. 

These are not Warly problems, these are core problems with the design of Don't Starve Together. Most players already never die from starvation once they're even moderately experienced, there are multiple easy ways to get food(bee boxes, butterfly wings, oh my goodness klei made forests that grow mushrooms underground in forests of like 200+ blue trees??? oh my goshhhh) that very much trivialize the experience. Also, the crock pot has existed for years now, so has pierogi, so has metball.

The game also doesn't get much harder as it progresses both because it doesn't have much of a progression(you can get a dark sword in 5 days of in-game time if you have some fairly basic knowledge), and Klei seems to have added gunpowder , Wolfgang,  very easy and accessible healing, and then basic armor that reduces all damage by 80%. The crux of this is  a fair number of exploits for basically every boss that they leave in, despite how they kill any challenge they could offer.

oh right almost all combat in this game can be approached at your own time and you can always easily run away so this just makes what i mentioned above a lot worse.

My main point is that Warly isn't the cause of these problems more problems that already existed for a while.

40 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

I also think that there should be differences between single and multiplayer difficulty. Like reducing bosses HP and DMG in single player mode and increasing HP and DMG in multiplayer mode depending on the number of players allowed in the room. 

This already exists in the game with some bosses in DST , some bosses already have scaling hp with player count. Their damage does not scale though.

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mm if I could give my 2 cents I would like a small buff to warly himself to be less annoying to play
such as have him receive a 15 - 20% bonus to the foods he makes and eats himself? (similar to his old trait from SW)

Idk just seems hes pros is helping everyone else, this might make it more nicer for warlies themselves to venture outta base to do things too

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41 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I mean I think that either Wickerbottom getting nerfed slightly or getting the other characters to her level of power is something we should do. The fact she's an aged old lady or her release years ago isn't making me have any mercy about her perks.

These are not Warly problems, these are core problems with the design of Don't Starve Together. Most players already never die from starvation once they're even moderately experienced, there are multiple easy ways to get food(bee boxes, butterfly wings, oh my goodness klei made forests that grow mushrooms underground in forests of like 200+ blue trees??? oh my goshhhh) that very much trivialize the experience. Also, the crock pot has existed for years now, so has pierogi, so has metball.

The game also doesn't get much harder as it progresses both because it doesn't have much of a progression(you can get a dark sword in 5 days of in-game time if you have some fairly basic knowledge), and Klei seems to have added gunpowder , Wolfgang,  very easy and accessible healing, and then basic armor that reduces all damage by 80%. The crux of this is  a fair number of exploits for basically every boss that they leave in, despite how they kill any challenge they could offer.

oh right almost all combat in this game can be approached at your own time and you can always easily run away so this just makes what i mentioned above a lot worse.

My main point is that Warly isn't the cause of these problems more problems that already existed for a while.

This already exists in the game with some bosses in DST , some bosses already have scaling hp with player count. Their damage does not scale though.

1. I never said 'food' or 'starving' was the problem. I said it was the effect of Warly exclusive food that had problems.

2. "The game doesn't get harder" this phrase is for experienced old players. To new players and some even already experienced players, the game does get harder. Eg. Caves are considerably harder then the outside world. Bosses like the Fuelweaver mechanics are harder than bosses like Deerclops. When I say the game should get harder, I don't mean that food should be scarcer or enemies should have higher HP, DMG, etc as the game progresses. I'm saying that the game should be harder as it already is, through boss mechanics, and no single character should have the ability to drastically change that. Experienced players already have no problem soloing bosses like the Ancient Fuelweaver, imagine having a 25% def or 20% attack boost from Warly, it drastically changes the difficulty. 

3. Yes the problems existed for a while. But that doesn't mean one new character should drastically make the problem that already existed problem way worse that it already is. His food buffs are OP, have you seen TheBeard777 video? With Warly buff, he solo killed Deerclops in 5 seconds! He even did a raid of Toadstool with I think 4 Wolfgang with Warly food buffs and it wasn't even a battle, it was a massacre. Toadstool died in less than a minute (the boss with the highest HP in DST).

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27 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

2. "The game doesn't get harder" this phrase is for experienced old players. To new players and some even already experienced players, the game does get harder. Eg. Caves are considerably harder then the outside world. Bosses like the Fuelweaver mechanics are harder than bosses like Deerclops. When I say the game should get harder, I don't mean that food should be scarcer or enemies should have higher HP, DMG, etc as the game progresses. I'm saying that the game should be harder as it already is, through boss mechanics, and no single character should have the ability to drastically change that. Experienced players already have no problem soloing bosses like the Ancient Fuelweaver, imagine having a 25% def or 20% attack boost from Warly, it drastically changes the difficulty. 

Well in your first post you did say you wanted the game to get harder as we go, but now you are arguing that it does get harder with caves? Anyways, I think you and @Sketched_Philo are really on the same side. All that Sketched is trying to say is that these issues have been present in the game long before Warly was released, but yes I agree with you about some of Warly's dishes being a bit ridiculous and just adding to this issue. Like you said they become very easy to mass produce after just a little bit. Like Volt Goat Jelly, when I saw increased electrical damage, I was sure that meant this was how they were going to make morning star a viable substitute for dark sword or something, but nope. Ironically the ELECTRIC WEAPONS are the only weapons that don't benefit from the increased electric damage! 

33 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

3. Yes the problems existed for a while. But that doesn't mean one new character should drastically make the problem that already existed problem way worse that it already is. His food buffs are OP, have you seen TheBeard777 video? With Warly buff, he solo killed Deerclops in 5 seconds! He even did a raid of Toadstool with I think 4 Wolfgang with Warly food buffs and it wasn't even a battle, it was a massacre. Toadstool died in less than a minute (the boss with the highest HP in DST).

Again I am not so sure Sketched was suggesting that Warly was OK as he is, he was merely saying that these issues have existed in the game for a long time now, Warly is just adding to them.

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

My main point is that Warly isn't the cause of these problems more problems that already existed for a while.

 

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33 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

Like you said they become very easy to mass produce after just a little bit.

Sure it's EASY, but you'll be spending all of your time farming if you want to mass produce the spice and voltgoat jelly. You're still at the mercy of RNG for volt goat horns too, adding to the time needed to farm. 

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48 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

Well in your first post you did say you wanted the game to get harder as we go, but now you are arguing that it does get harder with caves? Anyways, I think you and @Sketched_Philo are really on the same side. All that Sketched is trying to say is that these issues have been present in the game long before Warly was released, but yes I agree with you about some of Warly's dishes being a bit ridiculous and just adding to this issue. Like you said they become very easy to mass produce after just a little bit. Like Volt Goat Jelly, when I saw increased electrical damage, I was sure that meant this was how they were going to make morning star a viable substitute for dark sword or something, but nope. Ironically the ELECTRIC WEAPONS are the only weapons that don't benefit from the increased electric damage! 

Again I am not so sure Sketched was suggesting that Warly was OK as he is, he was merely saying that these issues have existed in the game for a long time now, Warly is just adding to them.

 

Yes I did say I wanted the game to become harder as we go, and it does. Either through caves and mechanics (boss battles). Thats because 'as we go' or 'progress' in Don't Starve is basically Starting World -> Caves -> then end boss. But since Warly dishes are so OP, it makes Caves and End bosses as easy as the world and bosses on the outside world (also making Outside world bosses considerably easier in the process).

Anyway the problem with Warly is his Multiplayer aspect. Single/Solo play wise he's not that great.

7 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

Sure it's EASY, but you'll be spending all of your time farming if you want to mass produce the spice and voltgoat jelly. You're still at the mercy of RNG for volt goat horns too, adding to the time needed to farm. 

Unfortunately Warly Dish buffs last a heck of a long time so we don't even need a whole lot of them. Thus almost eliminating the problem is RNG.

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4 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

Cause it makes his food more OP than it already is

It's really not that OP. Aside from the extremely specific situation of using Volt Jelly in Spring with a spiced up Wolfgang, there's nothing that major here. 

If you think something makes the survival experience too easy then don't use it. How does what someone else is doing in their world affect you? 

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