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M.C.    155
1 minute ago, Radam said:

How? Including Co2 processed by slicksters and sour gas boiler?

Just counting PW, 5 branches per 4.5 cycles. 333.3kg of lumber per 70kg of pw per cycle. 166.7kg of ethanol, 62.5kg of PW. 

That depends on how you read the five-branch change. If you read it as "5 branches per cycle [instead of 7]", then yes, it is pwater-negative and thus useless. If you read it as "it stops growing once it reaches 5 branches but still grows 7 branches per cycle", then it's still positive. I am not sure which reflects the new reality, actually.

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Radam    54
2 minutes ago, M.C. said:

I am not sure which reflects the new reality, actually.

It only grows 5 at a time. So a young tree will only start growing 5 branches.

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mathmanican    2494
21 minutes ago, Radam said:

333g of polluted dirt eventually turns into 333g of polluted oxygen

9 minutes ago, M.C. said:

You are right that all that polluted dirt becomes PO2 eventually, but the devil is in the details: specifically, in the word "eventually". Pdirt emission rates are low and scale very poorly by design, so you'll be producing pdirt much faster than you can convert it into PO2.

Polluted dirt off gasses more rapidly when separated into lots of small piles (unlike polluted water).  Make lots of storage containers, put capacity restrictions on them, try to fill as many as possible, and use a sweeper on a clock to fill them, and you could probably get the O2 production rate to go quite high.

Has anyone gotten a simple formula for the offgassing rate for polluted dirt? I played with it a bit in debug, but didn't take the time to get a nice model (rather jumped to forum diving to see if I could dig up a possible 2 year old thread...)

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M.C.    155
2 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Has anyone gotten a simple formula for the offgassing rate for polluted dirt? I played with it a bit in debug, but didn't take the time to get a nice model (rather jumped to forum diving to see if I could dig up a possible 2 year old thread...)

From wiki:

The emission rate (in g/s) is proportional to the exposed perimeter, or the square root of the mass (in kg): rate = 0.2*sqrt(mass).

It's also kind of a moot point if the setup is pwater-negative. The forest asteroid does not have a guaranteed way to get enough pwater to fuel the ethanol loop early in the game, and by the time I get to better technologies and resources, I will no longer need ethanol-derived power.

3 minutes ago, Radam said:

It only grows 5 at a time. So a young tree will only start growing 5 branches.

Have you verified whether this changes lumber yield per cycle?

Edited by M.C.
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Darkin Coaled    176
2 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

Arbor Trees can not grow more than 5 branches at once

Um, er.. wha? Huh?

You did some rebalancing and expansion on the whole wood/ethanol system. I get that, I'm looking forward for the flowchart and math folk to do the numbers on the new version of that. But what is the point of growing 5 of 7 branches..? You want to keep the look of the tree when it's fully mature but give us less wood? Lowering wood output per harvest would have totally sufficed.

Don't know what to think of this one.

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M.C.    155

Doing quick napkin math on pdirt-to-PO2 conversion, the minimum number of containers to evaporate one distiller's worth of pdirt (333 g/s) is 12. That's not horrible per se, but it's also going to take ages before you fill these containers with enough pdirt to achieve that evaporation rate. You can use more containers, but at that point it just becomes a hassle I'd rather not deal with.

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Radam    54

Definitely its only 1500 per 4.5 cycles.

Also PD has max chunk of 50t which offgasses 44g/s. In my as of yet functional base i have 15 distilleries which means 3 tons per cycle, or a dupes worth of offgassing if I do nothing to spread it, each 40 cycles. Or 17 if I limit 10 tons per storage compactor.

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Lurve    382
12 minutes ago, Darkin Coaled said:

Um, er.. wha? Huh?

You did some rebalancing and expansion on the whole wood/ethanol system. I get that, I'm looking forward for the flowchart and math folk to do the numbers on the new version of that. But what is the point of growing 5 of 7 branches..? You want to keep the look of the tree when it's fully mature but give us less wood? Lowering wood output per harvest would have totally sufficed.

Don't know what to think of this one.

Now they don't need all 7 tiles free to get full production.

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M.C.    155
2 minutes ago, Radam said:

Definitely its only 1500 per 4.5 cycles.

Also PD has max chunk of 50t which offgasses 44g/s. In my as of yet functional base i have 15 distilleries which means 3 tons per cycle, or a dupes worth of offgassing if I do nothing to spread it, each 40 cycles. Or 17 if I limit 10 tons per storage compactor.

Ok, well... RIP ethanol power plant. That's a damn shame. I was looking forward to more options, the old tricks have grown stale long ago, and now it looks like these new options are nerfed into uselessness. Oh well. Maybe the DLC will have enough new stuff to play with...

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Molay    12

Did anyone do the math on wood->ethanol->power? My setup kinda stopped working. How many trees do I need per distiller now? I can't figure out how much g/s wood a tree produces. From there on out I can figure out the water myself I reckon.

Edited by Molay
Forgot 't on can

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M.C.    155
Just now, qda said:

I don't believe that a sandbox/survival game should give you a way to achieve free infinite ressources loops. I'd rather have that nerf than everyone building scalable ethanol power plants in every map, forever. That would not encourage diversity in both playstyle and contraption design. For example, and oil boiler water loop requires heavy engineering, space, ressources, clever design. None of that was required to create tons of ressources in the pre-nerfed version of this loop, so I feel it is going in the right direction, with maybe some tweaking to numbers needed.

Absolutely. That's not the problem, however.

There are -- or at least there have to be -- different levels of usefulness between "so OP that nobody in their right mind would use anything else" and "completely useless". The sum total of all the changes they've made is that the ethanol power plant went straight from the former to the latter. Ethanol is still useful for other things, but the power plant aspect of it has been all but eliminated. That's what I meant when I was talking about a new option that does not exist anymore.

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nakomaru    1535
32 minutes ago, Darkin Coaled said:

But what is the point of growing 5 of 7 branches..?

A reduction in lumber yields is a reduction in both production and dupe efficiency.

A reduction in branch growths is only a reduction in production.

It also allows you to have 100 percent efficiency even when dupes do not immediately harvest.

Really surprised by the reaction to ethanol. Even wild trees are very productive for free. Using a small amount of water for big output seems completely reasonable.

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qda    83
5 minutes ago, M.C. said:

There are -- or at least there have to be -- different levels of usefulness between "so OP that nobody in their right mind would use anything else" and "completely useless". The sum total of all the changes they've made is that the ethanol power plant went straight from the former to the latter. Ethanol is still useful for other things, but the power plant aspect of it has been all but eliminated. That's what I meant when I was talking about a new option that does not exist anymore.

Well, I feel like it is more the water plant aspect that has just been nerfed, you still end up with 1kW of free power for every petro gen, unless I have missed something ?

Edited by qda
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M.C.    155
Just now, qda said:

Well, I feel like it more the water plant aspect that has just been nerfed, you still end up with 1kW of free power for every petro gen, unless I have missed something ?

You missed the part where (a) it requires massive amounts of dirt, which is a resource that's abundant during early game only and that doesn't become renewable until much later, (b) your power plant consumes pwater instead of producing it, (c) you won't have any sources of pwater until much later in the game, and (d) by the time those sources become available, you'll have many other ways to generate power, making your ethanol setup pointless -- or, if you prefer, something you do for the sake of doing something new, not because it's actually a good idea.

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Radam    54

PW isnt really a problem, as cleaning all that co2 also creates mountains of it.

Running one petrol generator requires 960w in refineries, and cleaning co2 takes another 480... Only really making positive with engies tuneup. 

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nakomaru    1535

There are very easy ways to store any amount of gas for the price of a pump. Utilize the tools you are given and life improves.

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M.C.    155
Just now, nakomaru said:

There are very easy ways to store any amount of gas for the price of a pump. Utilize the tools you are given and life improves.

I am sorry, but what does storing gas have to do with what we're discussing here?

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qda    83
6 minutes ago, M.C. said:

You missed the part where (a) it requires massive amounts of dirt, which is a resource that's abundant during early game only and that doesn't become renewable until much later, (b) your power plant consumes pwater instead of producing it, (c) you won't have any sources of pwater until much later in the game, and (d) by the time those sources become available, you'll have many other ways to generate power, making your ethanol setup pointless -- or, if you prefer, something you do for the sake of doing something new, not because it's actually a good idea.

Then I probably missed something. As I understand it, one distillety produces 200kg of dirt per cycle, enough for 20 trees, so heavily dirt positive by a large amount (150 to 160kg per cycle). The power plant itself will consume around 30kg of Pwater per cycle or 50g/s which I don't feel is a lot. Also, I find Pwater sources to be abundant : if you get one of the water geysers (salt, polluted or normal), which is highly probable right now, you can spare 50g/s of water for that kW and 150kg/cycle of dirt, don't you think ?

1 minute ago, M.C. said:

I am sorry, but what does storing gas have to do with what we're discussing here?

 

5 minutes ago, Radam said:

PW isnt really a problem, as cleaning all that co2 also creates mountains of it.

Running one petrol generator requires 960w in refineries, and cleaning co2 takes another 480... Only really making positive with engies tuneup. 

Look at CO2 as a ressource for a massive slickster ranch ! That way the petro/distilleries setup nets you 1kW.

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nakomaru    1535
Just now, M.C. said:

I am sorry, but what does storing gas have to do with what we're discussing here?

The post directly above mine

4 minutes ago, Radam said:

PW isnt really a problem, as cleaning all that co2 also creates mountains of it.

I misread that as "PW isn't as much of a problem as (the problem of trying to) clean the mountains of CO2 it creates"

Guess I'll put my head on the block now. Whoops.

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goboking    1566
7 minutes ago, Radam said:

PW isnt really a problem, as cleaning all that co2 also creates mountains of it.

Running one petrol generator requires 960w in refineries, and cleaning co2 takes another 480... Only really making positive with engies tuneup. 

Carbon skimmers are 120 watts to run, not 480.

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M.C.    155
6 minutes ago, qda said:

Then I probably missed something. As I understand it, one distillety produces 200kg of dirt per cycle, enough for 20 trees, so heavily dirt positive by a large amount (150 to 160kg per cycle). The power plant itself will consume around 30kg of Pwater per cycle or 50g/s which I don't feel is a lot. Also, I find Pwater sources to be abundant : if you get one of the water geysers (salt, polluted or normal), which is highly probable right now, you can spare 50g/s of water for that kW and 150kg/cycle of dirt, don't you think ?

Trees require dirt. Distillers produce pdirt. This means you need compost piles, lots of them, which means lots of dupe labor.

Pwater geysers are not guaranteed. Water geysers are, but converting water to pwater requires skimmers, which means more complexity and less power produced.

Each tree consumes 70 kg of pwater per cycle, or 117 g/s. Your hypothetical 20-tree farm will require 2333 g/s of pwater, which is a non-trivial amount no matter how you turn it.

Can I make this work? Sure. It will have lots and lots of moving parts and will require dupe labor.

Does it make sense to build this setup? I would argue that it does not. It's way too complicated for what it actually does, and there are far simpler and far more effective options competing with it.

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crbd115    52

@Ipsquiggle
Started testing new update and couldn't figure out why my harvest overlay kept freezing up the game and lagging out until I hovered  over an arbor tree and it showed a ton of plants growing on the same branch? Assuming this is a bug and took a screenshot of the plant itself. You can see like 8 branches at different lengths on the tree in the spot where one branch should be.

image.png

Edited by crbd115
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qda    83
2 minutes ago, M.C. said:

Pwater geysers are not guaranteed. Water geysers are, but converting water to pwater requires skimmers, which means more complexity and less power produced.

Each tree consumes 70 kg of pwater per cycle, or 117 g/s. Your hypothetical 20-tree farm will require 2333 g/s of pwater, which is a non-trivial amount no matter how you turn it.

Your plumbed bathroom is a great source of power-free Pwater ! Probably not enough, but that depends on the amount of dupes.

And yes I'm sorry, my calculations were wrong. The standard 4 trees / 4 distilleries / 1 petrogen setup now requires 280(trees irrigation)-62.5(petrogen production) = 217.5kg of Pwater/cycle or 363g/s.

It really depends on how you look at it. If you want a power plant, you have obviously much, much better solutions available. However, this is an insane dirt plant, and in late game, I will be happy to turn 363g/s of water into 1kg/s of Pdirt, whether it is for oxygen (maybe) or dirt (certainly).

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