Technoincubus

Underpowered and worthless buildings

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PhailRaptor    844

On the topic of the Ore Scrubber, it can be determined mathematically that it is not, and has never been, relevant to decontaminating objects.

Consider natural Slime tiles, teeming with Slimelung germs.  The germs will reproduce uncontrollably until they reach 1 million in quantity, at which time they will "spill over" into the 4 adjacent tiles.  I think the amount spawned in those tiles is 250,000 germs, but I can't recall -- the central Slime tile will also lose 250,000 germs, which will immediately begin reproducing again.  So at any given time, a natural Slime tile will have between 750,000 and 1 million germs on it.

Consider the Ore Scrubber.  At the cost of Chlorine input (a resource you are NOT guaranteed to have a renewable supply of), the Ore Scrubber will cleanse 480,000 germs off any single object passed through it.  But, wait....  Slime will always have between 750,000 and 1 million germs on it.  So at minimum, any dug out blobule of Slime will require 2 passes through an Ore Scrubber to be cleansed of Slimelung.  This also assumes your Dupe washes their hands between the 2 Ore Scrubbers, to get the Slimelung off their hands and prevent it from re-contaminating the Slime.

And this is also per unit of Slime carried.  You're not going to have just 1 blobule of Slime when you excavate in the Swamp Biome.  You will have many.  This creates a problem in your access path if you allow more than a single Dupe to use a given exit path.  Why?  Because Dupes treat Ore Scrubbers the same way they treat Sinks and Wash Basins -- if it's in use, they skip it completely.  So if 2 Dupes go through your decontamination point at the same time, neither of them will actually complete the decontamination process.  The first Dupe will occupy the first Ore Scrubber, and the second Dupe will walk past them to the second one and occupy it.  The first Dupe will finish, and ignore the now occupied second Ore Scrubber.  So now 2 blobules of Slime have gotten through your decontamination zone.  To work around this would require multiple decontamination rooms to exit your Swamp excavation zone, controlled by complex automation sensors and networks (easier now with the Motion Sensor, I suppose) to ensure the whole system actually works.

Or....  you can just ensure your Slime is stored in Chlorine atmosphere at a per-tile pressure of 1.8 kg/tile or more to prevent off-gassing.  The Slimelung germs will die off at a high rate from the Chlorine Exposure buff.

It would, however, be super easy to fix the Ore Scrubber.  Instead of removing a fixed amount of germs, 480,00 per use, make it remove germs at a fixed rate until they have been removed.  Instead of 2 Scrubbers per Dupe per access point, you just need 1 per Dupe per access point.

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Grimgaw    440
4 hours ago, BaloneyOs said:

Ore scrubber feels like the most outdated design still in the game.

It's because it was never useful in a sense that you'd need to set up multiple of them in a row to clean slime. Plus the fact that it was added before Chlorine geysers existed.

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Technoincubus    242
  • Manual Airlocks - sometimes when I build and lock forever.
  • Switch - never. Clock, athmo etc. It is just not needed.
  • Microbe Musher - only for the first 10-20 minutes as an insurance against some food shortage emergency. Deconstruct and never touch after first stable harvest.
  • Mini Pumps, Germ Sensors - mini-pumps sometimes to drain plastic factory or something like that, but could replace it with normal pumps anytime. Useless.
  • Fertilizer Synthesizer - never. Fertilizer is so useless that it is not worth power consumed. Nat gas output is negligable and irrelevant.
  • Algae Distiller - The amount of slime it consumes is huge, even several puft farms could not fill it's demands. So never build it. Slime better spent as Mushroom fertilizer.
  • Massage Table, Tasteful Memorial - never ever. Dupes die from some bugs in behaviour, like delivery or oxygen loops so I reload. And try not to go beyond stress limit 
  • Lamp, Sculpting Block, Corner Moulding - A waste of space. With existing alternatives it is ALWAYS better to spend space on something more valuable.
  • Power Control Station - 5 Kg of refined metal and a dupe operation to get a bit more power? Never ever. Not even going to touch it even if it'll consume raw metal. Because it is never worth it.
  • Farm Station - build until starting biome fertilizer will not expire, then deconstruct. Stable farming is more important than temp growth boost+building additional installation for fert. synth.
  • Ice-E Fan, - Buildings with no role. Manual operation means I will never build it or consider some installation in my base. Just no.
  • Thermo Regulator - In the curent build we are forced to have Steam+Aquatuners for cooling so why would you need thermo regulators? They are super-ineffective.
  • Duplicant Checkpoint - may be useful for some roleplay bases, but never build it because never had any situation where it could be useful.
  • Sight-Seeing Module - it was, is, and I suppose will be single most useless module for rockets.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, wronny said:

But with almost 30 cycles worth of food buried in the starting biome for 3 duplicants at 2000 kcal / cycle, the Microbe Musher is just not necessary. The time wasted on making food with the musher, is better spent digging for more seeds & muckroot or killing hatches, IMO.

At the old 3000 kcal / cycle, that I didn't get to experience, this may have been a different story.

...

Going into my max difficulty colony, I fully expected that to be the case - even made room in my base layout for the massage clinic. But it turned out that morale & stress management was surprisingly tame, so I used the room for the 2nd Great Hall instead.

At high difficult level will be consumption up to 6000, but you can take more colonists. In the forest biome (verdante) I found little food and only one hatch.
Stress problem is not terrible on fatalistic, but duplicants sometimes got hungry when they had food (with stress). Wet legs, sunburn, especially exit from the spacecraft - сause increased stress. Finally, massage table easily fix player mistakes. If you can play without him, why do you want to take away from others?

14 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:
  • Power Control Station - 5 Kg of refined metal and a dupe operation to get a bit more power? Never ever. Not even going to touch it even if it'll consume raw metal. Because it is never worth it.

5 kg refined metal or up to 50%*3*600=900 kg of coal. 100 kg refined metall (one block power conductor) or up to 18 t of coal. Hmm, what is more valuable?

Edited by Alexander Block

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Technoincubus    242
1 hour ago, Alexander Block said:

5 kg refined metal or up to 50%*3*600=900 kg of coal. 100 kg refined metall (one block power conductor) or up to 18 t of coal. Hmm, what is more valuable?

5 KG of refined metal is more valuable than 99 t of coal

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metallichydra    1,081
11 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

5 KG of refined metal is more valuable than 99 t of coal

but you get free metal from space!

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Grimgaw    440
18 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

5 KG of refined metal is more valuable than 99 t of coal

Is there math behind you'd be willing to share?

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just to say, i love the ore scrubber. chlorine geyser is my favourite. i like everything to be clean and organised. bleach it all to heck. what i REALLY WANT is coloured/colourable lockers. for sorting things.

oh also i always use planters, light/gas/liquid can pass by no worries. i only use/d musher for berry sludge.

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Saturnus    2,964
2 hours ago, Technoincubus said:
  • Manual Airlocks - sometimes when I build and lock forever.
  • Switch - never. Clock, athmo etc. It is just not needed.
  • Microbe Musher - only for the first 10-20 minutes as an insurance against some food shortage emergency. Deconstruct and never touch after first stable harvest.
  • Mini Pumps, Germ Sensors - mini-pumps sometimes to drain plastic factory or something like that, but could replace it with normal pumps anytime. Useless.
  • Fertilizer Synthesizer - never. Fertilizer is so useless that it is not worth power consumed. Nat gas output is negligable and irrelevant.
  • Algae Distiller - The amount of slime it consumes is huge, even several puft farms could not fill it's demands. So never build it. Slime better spent as Mushroom fertilizer.
  • Massage Table, Tasteful Memorial - never ever. Dupes die from some bugs in behaviour, like delivery or oxygen loops so I reload. And try not to go beyond stress limit 
  • Lamp, Sculpting Block, Corner Moulding - A waste of space. With existing alternatives it is ALWAYS better to spend space on something more valuable.
  • Power Control Station - 5 Kg of refined metal and a dupe operation to get a bit more power? Never ever. Not even going to touch it even if it'll consume raw metal. Because it is never worth it.
  • Farm Station - build until starting biome fertilizer will not expire, then deconstruct. Stable farming is more important than temp growth boost+building additional installation for fert. synth.
  • Ice-E Fan, - Buildings with no role. Manual operation means I will never build it or consider some installation in my base. Just no.
  • Thermo Regulator - In the curent build we are forced to have Steam+Aquatuners for cooling so why would you need thermo regulators? They are super-ineffective.
  • Duplicant Checkpoint - may be useful for some roleplay bases, but never build it because never had any situation where it could be useful.
  • Sight-Seeing Module - it was, is, and I suppose will be single most useless module for rockets.

Let's just say we play very different games, and leave it at that. Some items on this list I consider absolutely vital; like manual airlock for infinite storages. Others are really nice to have; like farm station to basically almost halve the size of your farms and thereby water requirements, and then use the farm station to regulate the farm outputs by disabling them with a fridge when you have sufficient food in storage. Much like I use espresso maker to get rid of surplus pincha peppers.

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Beercules    33
Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2019 at 5:53 AM, wronny said:

Let's see, which buildings do I usually fail to find a use for:

  • Manual Airlocks
  • Switch
  • Microbe Musher
  • Mini Pumps, Germ Sensors
  • Fertilizer Synthesizer, Algae Distiller
  • Massage Table, Tasteful Memorial
  • Lamp, Sculpting Block, Corner Moulding
  • Power Control Station, Farm Station
  • Ice-E Fan, Thermo Regulator
  • Ore Scrubber
  • Duplicant Checkpoint
  • Sight-Seeing Module

For a subset of them I could see some use based on settings and asteroid choice or if going for certain projects or challenges, but during normal play those buildings have no use to me - these days.

So because you don't use these buildings they must be useless... What an awesome generation we have raised,

if I don't use it NO ONE ELSE CAN!

I feel sorry for the current generation, they have been completely misled in think if you whine just enough, people will cave, in reality people just laugh at you while you throw your tantrum.

:p

Edited by Beercules
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goboking    1,353
5 hours ago, bobucles said:

Gonna have to throw my vote in for the algae distiller. Slime is straight up better than algae in just about every way that matters, so the refining is a downgrade of material.

I still have my fingers crossed that pacu feeding will be addressed before launch.

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Beercules    33
2 hours ago, Technoincubus said:
  • Manual Airlocks - sometimes when I build and lock forever.
  • Switch - never. Clock, athmo etc. It is just not needed.
  • Microbe Musher - only for the first 10-20 minutes as an insurance against some food shortage emergency. Deconstruct and never touch after first stable harvest.
  • Mini Pumps, Germ Sensors - mini-pumps sometimes to drain plastic factory or something like that, but could replace it with normal pumps anytime. Useless.
  • Fertilizer Synthesizer - never. Fertilizer is so useless that it is not worth power consumed. Nat gas output is negligable and irrelevant.
  • Algae Distiller - The amount of slime it consumes is huge, even several puft farms could not fill it's demands. So never build it. Slime better spent as Mushroom fertilizer.
  • Massage Table, Tasteful Memorial - never ever. Dupes die from some bugs in behaviour, like delivery or oxygen loops so I reload. And try not to go beyond stress limit 
  • Lamp, Sculpting Block, Corner Moulding - A waste of space. With existing alternatives it is ALWAYS better to spend space on something more valuable.
  • Power Control Station - 5 Kg of refined metal and a dupe operation to get a bit more power? Never ever. Not even going to touch it even if it'll consume raw metal. Because it is never worth it.
  • Farm Station - build until starting biome fertilizer will not expire, then deconstruct. Stable farming is more important than temp growth boost+building additional installation for fert. synth.
  • Ice-E Fan, - Buildings with no role. Manual operation means I will never build it or consider some installation in my base. Just no.
  • Thermo Regulator - In the curent build we are forced to have Steam+Aquatuners for cooling so why would you need thermo regulators? They are super-ineffective.
  • Duplicant Checkpoint - may be useful for some roleplay bases, but never build it because never had any situation where it could be useful.
  • Sight-Seeing Module - it was, is, and I suppose will be single most useless module for rockets.

This just shows a complete lack of imagination, if its not laid out in front of you in a completed diagram you couldnt figure out how to use them, the point of these modules is to provide those that want to use them to use them, but they're not their for you to whine about :p

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Rebrait    28
12 hours ago, wronny said:

Did that back in QoL-Mk2 and will likely do that again, some time after the Launch Update moves out of the testing branch.

But with almost 30 cycles worth of food buried in the starting biome for 3 duplicants at 2000 kcal / cycle, the Microbe Musher is just not necessary. The time wasted on making food with the musher, is better spent digging for more seeds & muckroot or killing hatches, IMO.

At the old 3000 kcal / cycle, that I didn't get to experience, this may have been a different story.

You really don't have this option in the hot maps... you rely on mushbars a lot of cycles until you have a cold spot to plant mealwood...

The cold map too, but you can have a farm with the space heat+the celling light soon

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SackMaggie    120

All building have their use and also nice to have it. Why ? Just think like this "You just bought the game ,You know nothing about it and never visit these forum before" Do you think you will discover all the better solution in one day ?

I THINK NOT. Just look at them from a newbie perspective all of them are good stuff.

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Technoincubus    242
2 hours ago, Beercules said:

So because you don't use these buildings they must be useless... What an awesome generation we have raised,

if I don't use it NO ONE ELSE CAN!

I feel sorry for the current generation, they have been completely misled in think if you whine just enough, people will cave, in reality people just laugh at you while you throw your tantrum.

 

ejuTHOn.jpg

The point of this post is that a lot of buildings need IMPROVEMENT and adjustment to have their own role and significant place in the game, not their removal.

No building should become "obsolette", where you never touch it after some research - they should have their niche, viable even in the late game.

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TGI    111

I was using the ore scrubber for removing germs from slime biome ore but didn't realize you could just bake ore in chlorine for the same effect. 

I haven't looked into the math of it, but wouldn't the ore scrubber technically be like... Faster?

I was also playing the game assuming chlorine was toxic to inhale. LOL. Klei games made me into a very cautious newbie.

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goboking    1,353
4 minutes ago, TGI said:

I was using the ore scrubber for removing germs from slime biome ore but didn't realize you could just bake ore in chlorine for the same effect. 

Don't let them lead you astray, friend.  Stick with me and our trusty ore scrubbers and we'll laugh at them all when Klei gets around to making chlorine the toxic threat it's destined to be.

Kidding aside, there's nothing wrong with using ore scrubbers if you have chlorine to spare and aren't stretched thin on dupe labor power.

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TGI    111
1 minute ago, goboking said:

Don't let them lead you astray, friend.  Stick with me and our trusty ore scrubbers and we'll laugh at them all when Klei gets around to making chlorine the toxic threat it's destined to be.

Kidding aside, there's nothing wrong with using ore scrubbers if you have chlorine to spare and aren't stretched thin on dupe labor power.

Hahaha omg. That's how I feel. I'm deathly afraid I'll wake up one day to an update and suddenly all the gases that are irl toxic will be toxic in ONI. LOL!

Yeah, reading back through the thread, it's definitely a fair point that chlorine is potentially non renewable. And the fact that toxic materials still make it through unless you have several scrubbers is ultra annoying. I just ended up having a lot of slimelung in my base.... Until I switched over to the Hydrogen Oxidizers. The care dupes were never bored.

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Beercules    33
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

ejuTHOn.jpg

The point of this post is that a lot of buildings need IMPROVEMENT and adjustment to have their own role and significant place in the game, not their removal.

No building should become "obsolette", where you never touch it after some research - they should have their niche, viable even in the late game.

NO the point of the post was to get your opinion of these buildings out, the title of your post proves that, its not a question, its a statement about your opinion. You wanted to start a conversation to get your point of view out, well guess what the world has many different point of views, but that concept is well over your head :p

Next time, maybe ask others opinion before providing yours, and the point of a post such as this is to listen to others and to reevaluate your point of view, not to look for reinforcement of your stance, which is what you were looking for :p

19 minutes ago, TGI said:

Hahaha omg. That's how I feel. I'm deathly afraid I'll wake up one day to an update and suddenly all the gases that are irl toxic will be toxic in ONI. LOL!

Yeah, reading back through the thread, it's definitely a fair point that chlorine is potentially non renewable. And the fact that toxic materials still make it through unless you have several scrubbers is ultra annoying. I just ended up having a lot of slimelung in my base.... Until I switched over to the Hydrogen Oxidizers. The care dupes were never bored.

 

Their is a nice mod that causes skin to burn, check it out in the workshop, its called "Chemical Burns" 

Notes:

Duplicants will suffer damage when exposed to dangerous substances

Current list of hazardous chemicals
- Chlorine (gas / liquid with a mass of 100g or greater)
- Sour gas (gas with a mass of 100g or greater)

Make sure duplicants wear protective atmo suits when working in areas filled with these chemicals!

I hope Klei will start to incorporate some of these community mods into the game. 

Edited by Beercules

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Slvrsrfr    55

I like the planters, I use them in a single tile hole, that catches stray co2. It makes it so if I can't get to them to harvest them, the food falls into a sterile atmo. It kinda works, so far.

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I played with a mod that makes chlorine toxic. I made atmosuits and water gates at the entrance to the base, but one day my duplicates dropped a piece of bleach stone in the base, and she blew out some chlorine. It began to destroy my base, chlorine damaged duplicants, flew into the med-compartment, where duplicates were treated for chemical burns, and when it flew into the bedroom, I could not stand it and turned off the mod. I did not find a way to overcome it at the base, gateways and pumps with filters could not catch it. The game has become terrible. 1 kg of chlorine could kill everyone.

I think Klei planned to make chlorine toxic, but the game became incredibly difficult, and chlorine was equated to carbon dioxide. While there are no ways to do a gas cleaning (like wiping a liquid), this is too masochistic.

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Beercules    33
1 minute ago, Alexander Block said:

I played with a mod that makes chlorine toxic. I made atmosuits and water gates at the entrance to the base, but one day my duplicates dropped a piece of bleach stone in the base, and she blew out some chlorine. It began to destroy my base, chlorine damaged duplicants, flew into the med-compartment, where duplicates were treated for chemical burns, and when it flew into the bedroom, I could not stand it and turned off the mod. I did not find a way to overcome it at the base, gateways and pumps with filters could not catch it. The game has become terrible. 1 kg of chlorine could kill everyone.

I think Klei planned to make chlorine toxic, but the game became incredibly difficult, and chlorine was equated to carbon dioxide. While there are no ways to do a gas cleaning (like wiping a liquid), this is too masochistic.

Ya thats a little overpowered, sounds like what happens when a -200c plastic is dropped out of the printing pod when your on a cold world. Death by 1000 needles :(

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Lurve    241

The ore scrubber just needs some ore-base diseases to scrub off.  Coppertop.  Lead Foot.  Iron Manicure.  Goldbug.  Aluminumiumumium.

Or for variety, make them harmless to dupes but do something else.  Ore germs that "infect" metal buildings, damage them and take a long time to disinfect.

 

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goboking    1,353
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Beercules said:

Their is a nice mod that causes skin to burn, check it out in the workshop, its called "Chemical Burns" 

Notes:

Duplicants will suffer damage when exposed to dangerous substances

I'm hoping that chemical burns from chlorine, should Klei (hopefully) make it a thing, is in line with hypothermia and heat exhaustion.  I.e. - you can live with it if you must, treat if you want, and prevent it with clothing from the textile loom (a hazmat suit).

 

8 minutes ago, Lurve said:

The ore scrubber just needs some ore-base diseases to scrub off.  Coppertop.  Lead Foot.  Iron Manicure.  Goldbug.  Aluminumiumumium.

Or for variety, make them harmless to dupes but do something else.  Ore germs that "infect" metal buildings, damage them and take a long time to disinfect.

 

Now that's an interesting prospect.  Rust could carry rust germs (aren't I creative?) that could infect other metals, changing them into rust.  This could be a double-edged sword, giving us a source of renewable rust for rust oxydizers, but pose a risk if we're not thoughtful in how we store it.

Edited by goboking
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Beercules    33
7 minutes ago, Lurve said:

The ore scrubber just needs some ore-base diseases to scrub off.  Coppertop.  Lead Foot.  Iron Manicure.  Goldbug.  Aluminumiumumium.

Or for variety, make them harmless to dupes but do something else.  Ore germs that "infect" metal buildings, damage them and take a long time to disinfect.

 

The ore scrubber needs a controlled output, I would actually like to see all buildings have options for piped output or free release. 

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