Underpowered and worthless buildings

[creidieki]

 

1 minute ago, Lurve said:

If the slime is underwater (>2 kg of liquid), it won't offgas and the slimelung is otherwise harmless.  Putting it in a storage bin in a puddle works too. 

I understand how to get them to not offgas, but I thought the slimelung went into any algae you get out of the algae distiller, and then can spread from oxygen diffusers.

[Blazing Falken]

I haven't tested lately, but I'm pretty sure Dreckos can't eat from planter boxes that don't have a tile to the side high enough to reach the plant, so that's useful if you want to keep them from eating something but have it in the same room. Also (again haven't checked lately) light passes through so you can stack planter boxes on window tiles.

[Lurve]

Just now, creidieki said:

 

I understand how to get them to not offgas, but I thought the slimelung went into any algae you get out of the algae distiller, and then can spread from oxygen diffusers.

I've never tested that, but it'd be into clean oxygen, where it should die before it causes a problem.

 

[creidieki]

Just now, Lurve said:

I've never tested that, but it'd be into clean oxygen, where it should die before it causes a problem.

 

Slimelung doesn't die all THAT fast in clean oxygen, and it certainly doesn't die faster than your dupes can inhale while walking past it. I think any major use of the algae distiller really wants an ore scrubber attached to it too.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, creidieki said:

Wait, how do you guys get slimelung out of slime without the ore scrubber? Just storing it at a weird temperature? Are you not using algae distillers either?

Make a pit 1 tile deep with CL in it, build storage there and put your slime in it for 1 cycle. You can also just ignore the slimelung if you use your polluted water and algae for other purposes than making oxygen.

[creidieki]

Just now, nonoxyl said:

Make a pit 1 tile deep with CL in it, build storage there and put your slime in it for 1 cycle. You can also just ignore the slimelung if you use your polluted water and algae for other purposes than making oxygen.

If we start getting rid of buildings because there are workarounds for people very experienced with the systems, there won't be too many buildings left. Why use a pre-built filter instead of a loop filter? Or a fridge instead of chlorine? It seems like the ore scrubber fills a reasonable and intuitive role to me, and one that can be helpful. (I keep meaning to put one before my bottle emptiers to handle germy moppings-up.)

I'd totally appreciate a boost to how many germs they use up, or for them to repeat the task (like sinks), though.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, creidieki said:

If we start getting rid of buildings because there are workarounds for people very experienced with the systems, there won't be too many buildings left. Why use a pre-built filter instead of a loop filter? Or a fridge instead of chlorine? It seems like the ore scrubber fills a reasonable and intuitive role to me, and one that can be helpful. (I keep meaning to put one before my bottle emptiers to handle germy moppings-up.)

I'd totally appreciate a boost to how many germs they use up, or for them to repeat the task (like sinks), though.

You asked how other people did it without the orescrubber. They use builds that take advantage of the game mechanics to achieve the same effect and work more effectively. Personally, I do not want to see buildings replace builds. No one building should perfectly handle sterilization IMO. Or any other major obstacle for players. We should be building systems to overcome those problems. 

[creidieki]

1 minute ago, nonoxyl said:

You asked how other people did it without the orescrubber. They use builds that take advantage of the game mechanics to achieve the same effect and work more effectively. Personally, I do not want to see buildings replace builds. No one building should perfectly handle sterilization IMO. Or any other major obstacle for players. We should be building systems to overcome those problems. 

Sure, but the original argument seemed to be that the ore scrubber wasn't necessary because disinfecting didn't need to be done. That's what I was confused by. If people do agree that disinfecting needs to be done, and that the ore scrubber is the "easiest"/simplest/newbie-friendliest way of doing it, or even just a halfway reasonable way of doing it, then no one's made the argument that we should still get rid of the ore scrubber.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, creidieki said:

Sure, but the original argument seemed to be that the ore scrubber wasn't necessary because disinfecting didn't need to be done. That's what I was confused by. If people do agree that disinfecting needs to be done, and that the ore scrubber is the "easiest"/simplest/newbie-friendliest way of doing it, or even just a halfway reasonable way of doing it, then no one's made the argument that we should still get rid of the ore scrubber.

There is certainly an argument to be made for changing the ore scrubber to be more friendly to new players which would give the building a solid niche. Seems to me that is separate from whether or not sterilization is necessary. That's a discussion about the disease mechanic. If you are familiar with the disease mechanic, it's easy to find ways to avoid/ignore it. So it's really about your playstyle and if you want to bother with it or not.

[pacovf]

9 hours ago, QuQuasar said:

the Incubator is utterly useless since eggs hatch on their own

I  used the incubator as part of my automation system to only hatch eggs that I intend to ranch (I feel bad about drowning babies). Although it does seem to produce more heat than the extra hatching speed is worth. An automatic dispenser might be a good enough alternative.

[EnderCN]

4 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Microbe musher can be ignored on normal settings but not with hard hunger setting

I always play with hunger pumped up 1 and I've never built a masher, it would require the game on the highest hunger setting and really bad luck with early mealwood seeds to ever be worth it.

[DarkMaster13]

8 hours ago, EnderCN said:

They are faster to build and deconstruct than farm tiles, they also allow a floor below them to improve run speed.  The only reason to ever build a farm tile is because you need it to act like a floor or you really want +10 decor, other than that farm tiles are just cruddier planter boxes.  You certainly shouldn't be deconstructing your planter boxes just to make farm tiles at any point in the game.  Planter boxes are also far superior for any plant you plan on moving like oxyferns early game.  If I had to pick between these two I would keep the planter and get rid of the farm tile.

Farm tiles are much more space efficient than planter boxes.  You can make farms just two tiles high with farm tiles, planter boxes require the room to be three tiles high.  Obviously you must use farm tiles for Pinchas and Dashas.

7 hours ago, DustFireSky said:

The power control station makes only sense, if you have high power buildings. The Petrol Gen for example. For "tuning" your wheels it is maybe a bad choice. So, each building have mostly just one meaningful use. Other uses were waste of time and not efficient. But that is just my point of view. So for me, all in all the user wronny has right. U can build it, but then, you waste more than that you get.

The power station is a way to convert refined metals and dupe time into fuel.  For example, if you don't have that much coal, tuning your coal power plants will make that supply last 50% longer.  That can potentially make the difference if you're running a hatch ranch or need to expand it.  Same with any other power station.  It similarly allows you to increase your power usage by 50% without having to find new power sources if you've already tapped everything.  Situational, but a legitimate use.

2 hours ago, creidieki said:

Slimelung doesn't die all THAT fast in clean oxygen, and it certainly doesn't die faster than your dupes can inhale while walking past it. I think any major use of the algae distiller really wants an ore scrubber attached to it too.

Slimelung is completely harmless unless it is in polluted oxygen specifically.  Dupes cannot get infected with it otherwise.  So algae with slimelung in it is usually harmless.  It's a different story with the polluted water runoff from the distiller.  Don't let that stuff outside pipes without sieving it first, since that slimelung can end up in polluted oxygen from the polluted water outgassing.

[bobucles]

2 hours ago, creidieki said:

but I thought the slimelung went into any algae you get out of the algae distiller, and then can spread from oxygen diffusers.

The trick is to never ever ever use an algae distiller. If your goal is to produce pure oxygen, The algae distiller and oxygen deoxidizer are wasted steps. Slimelung decays into the same amount of polluted oxygen. Use a deodorizer for the air to clean out naturally, or run the air through a cooker or freezer to purge it. 

If your goal is to produce polluted water, try to find other ways. Running all the steps to turn slime into polluted water is a lot of effort for a questionable loss. You will save more water by using the slime directly in mushroom farms and cutting down on other water heavy crops.

[natanstarke]

14 hours ago, Technoincubus said:

Ore Scrubber - the building completely misses any meaning. Remove germs from the ore? Why? This is so ineffective that you barely need to do it. Even germs in the water are not dangerous. In all my plays I noticed that I could easily ignore Ore Scrubber completely.

Planter Box - becomes obsolete within first 10-15 minutes. You research farm plot and...why do you need planter box anymore? To have gas flow beneath? Runspeed? They are both negligable factors. 

I actually use them a lot " the planter box" but only that ore scrubber never saw my base.

[Alexander Block]

10 hours ago, wronny said:

Let's see, which buildings do I usually fail to find a use for:

• Manual Airlocks
• Switch
• Microbe Musher
• Mini Pumps, Germ Sensors
• Fertilizer Synthesizer, Algae Distiller
• Massage Table, Tasteful Memorial
• Lamp, Sculpting Block, Corner Moulding
• Power Control Station, Farm Station
• Ice-E Fan, Thermo Regulator
• Ore Scrubber
• Duplicant Checkpoint
• Sight-Seeing Module

For a subset of them I could see some use based on settings and asteroid choice or if going for certain projects or challenges, but during normal play those buildings have no use to me - these days.

Switch - i build because it is honest. Using pressure meter instead - abuse.
Microbe Musher - always build. Have you tried to play on more difficulty?
Mini Pumps - use for for filling closed systems (cooling), is not enough space.
Germ Sensors - yes, built. Once.
Fertilizer Synthesizer, yes, he saves water.
Algae Distiller - yes, on a map where there was almost no water.
Massage Table - yes. Increase the difficult, finally. You will understand why they are needed.
Tasteful Memorial - no, i quit the game after death, or load save. But some play without saveloads.
Lamp, Sculpting Block, Corner Moulding - yes.
Power Control Station, Farm Station - necessarily. They save resources
Thermo Regulator - yes, sometimes.
Ore Scrubber - yes, for food disinfection for example.

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Alexander Block said:

Switch - i build because it is honest. Using pressure meter instead - abuse.

I wish they would just put a checkbox on the building details to toggle dupe control. Then we would not need to abuse the other sensors.

[wronny]

2 hours ago, Alexander Block said:

Microbe Musher - always build. Have you tried to play on more difficulty?

Did that back in QoL-Mk2 and will likely do that again, some time after the Launch Update moves out of the testing branch.

But with almost 30 cycles worth of food buried in the starting biome for 3 duplicants at 2000 kcal / cycle, the Microbe Musher is just not necessary. The time wasted on making food with the musher, is better spent digging for more seeds & muckroot or killing hatches, IMO.

At the old 3000 kcal / cycle, that I didn't get to experience, this may have been a different story.

2 hours ago, Alexander Block said:

Tasteful Memorial - no, i quit the game after death, or load save. But some play without saveloads.

Loading up QoL-Mk3 for the first time was the last time a duplicant got really close to dying in one of my survial colonies - the change to the "!!" priority caught me off guard. 

The old RTS player habits (regularly "scanning" the notifacation area) turned out to be super useful for this game, especially after learning that Idle(1) usually means Danger - quickly reacting to that notice gives you plenty of time to save your duplicants, if they do need saving.

Additionally I try my best to make sure that my duplicants will be able to get themselves out of the predicaments they still - rarely - get into (e.g. no unconstructive or trypophobia).

2 hours ago, Alexander Block said:

Massage Table - yes. Increase the difficult, finally. You will understand why they are needed.

Going into my max difficulty colony, I fully expected that to be the case - even made room in my base layout for the massage clinic. But it turned out that morale & stress management was surprisingly tame, so I used the room for the 2nd Great Hall instead.

 

For those things to become a serious problem, I'd need to change my rather risk adverse playstyle and try to move fast instead of carefully.

[Gurgel]

6 minutes ago, wronny said:

Going into my max difficulty colony, I fully expected that to be the case - even made room in my base layout for the massage clinic. But it turned out that morale & stress management was surprisingly tame, so I used the room for the 2nd Great Hall instead.

Interesting. That is a bit of a pity. The stress system is one thing that makes dupes seem more alive. 

[oosyrag]

If planter boxes were unlocked by default, I would imagine there would be some players who currently skip them and go straight for farm tiles using them. Also there would be less food pressure on forest starts and more flexibility regarding first research priorities.

[BaloneyOs]

Ore scrubber feels like the most outdated design still in the game. Not only did disease get nerfed to being non-fatal but there are generally better options for oxygen than slime -> algae -> scrubber. Slime would basically have to be your only source of oxygen for scrubber to be useful and by that point its purpose feels shoehorned in.

[EnderCN]

5 hours ago, DarkMaster13 said:

Farm tiles are much more space efficient than planter boxes.  You can make farms just two tiles high with farm tiles, planter boxes require the room to be three tiles high.  Obviously you must use farm tiles for Pinchas and Dashas.

This isn't a realistic advantage.  You have about 10 times the space you actually need available to you.  Most people keep their bases pretty standard 4 tile high and farm tiles don't do anything for this.  I generally only use farm tiles for mushroom tiles and anything that plants upside down.

2 hours ago, wronny said:

Going into my max difficulty colony, I fully expected that to be the case - even made room in my base layout for the massage clinic. But it turned out that morale & stress management was surprisingly tame, so I used the room for the 2nd Great Hall instead.

Yep unfortunately stress and disease just don't matter at all in this game, they really need a complete rework.  Decor needs a closer look too.  I'm hoping they are leaving these as the last fixes because they aren't terribly important but they would still make the game a lot better if they were fixed.

[pacovf]

I think the only way to make stress an issue is if the morale requirements increase a bit faster than you can keep up with. Since morale requirements are now determined by learning new skills, and that is 100% player controlled, stress is unlikely to be a problem for most players. The only way that would change is if players had an incentive to learn skills before they've reached the necessary morale to keep that skill. That could be achieved by having high priority jobs in certain asteroids (e.g. ranching in hot asteroids), or by slowing down dupe acquisition considerably, forcing each one of your dupes to learn more skills. Another, less elegant option, is to have the minimum morale requirement of dupes increase with time, whether or not they are learning skills.

[DarkMaster13]

59 minutes ago, EnderCN said:

This isn't a realistic advantage.  You have about 10 times the space you actually need available to you.  Most people keep their bases pretty standard 4 tile high and farm tiles don't do anything for this.  I generally only use farm tiles for mushroom tiles and anything that plants upside down.

Eh, depends on the person.  I stack my farms as dense as possible to minimize dupe travel time.  Even more so early game when I leave huge sections undug until I've reached a self-sufficient and stable state.  My early bases are usually strewn about haphazardly depending on what the terrain was to start with and densely packed together around a few work rooms and ladders.  Mealwood tends to look like a shelf.

[BaloneyOs]

10 minutes ago, pacovf said:

The only way that would change is if players had an incentive to learn skills before they've reached the necessary morale to keep that skill.

That sort of exists in that you can push the morale limits with skills and have other means of stabilizing them close to the optimal 59%. The player also has varied control over resources such as food and water so stuff like that could easily gatekeep morale on some maps.

17 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Another, less elegant option, is to have the minimum morale requirement of dupes increase with time, whether or not they are learning skills.

This was actually one of the very early iterations. They scrapped it because it had no cap and therefore became infinitely difficult. You either ended up ignoring it and watching the anarchy unfold or you culled your oldest dupes to cut costs.

[bobucles]

Gonna have to throw my vote in for the algae distiller. Slime is straight up better than algae in just about every way that matters, so the refining is a downgrade of material.