[Game Update] - 351082

[BaloneyOs]

The light requirement change adds a lot of baggage to ranching because there's no grooming station filter to avoid grooming shine bugs so working light is the only solution.

Current balance for wheezeworts and wild planting gives you an incentive to preserve more of the cold biome which in turn is rewarding. IMO it's a good combination of mechanics that encourage you to build around stuff rather than demolish everything for a utilitarian nightmare. This is also in contrast to the horrible design of non-deconstructible POIs.

It's also plenty clear that they want to move away from completely passive heat deletion so worts still being in the game is something and it doesn't restrict design space for new cooling content.

[Ecu]

6 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

How the mighty have fallen though! Wheezeworts once a valuable commodity are now just a stopgap, situational early-game solution to heat generation. You'd be 10x better off just insulating your base and moving the heat generators outside and forgetting about worts entirely.

Honestly, I feel this discussion is going nowhere.  I've already explained how I definitely do see uses for wheezeworts under the current design.  However, your responses continue to be hyperbolic.  There is no real discussion to be had under such a situation and we will have to agree to disagree.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Ecu

[Giltirn]

Just now, Ecu said:

Honestly, I feel this discussion is going nowhere.  I've already explained how I definitely do see uses for wheezeworts under the current design.  However, your responses continue to be hyperbolic.  There is no real discussion to be had under such a situation and I will have to agree to disagree.

I apologize if you find my comments hyperbolic. To me this is a very real criticism of the role to which this formerly very valuable item has been consigned. Time will tell if we can adapt to the loss of wheezeworts, and maybe my fears will in the end be proven wrong. On the other hand maybe premature heat death will once again be the #1 cause of failure and lead to bad reviews for the upcoming release? There are always mods for me.

[BaloneyOs]

1 minute ago, Giltirn said:

On the other hand maybe premature heat death will once again be the #1 cause of failure and lead to bad reviews for the upcoming release?

My money is on the bad dupe AI. It's immediately noticeable when you start farming anything and becomes exponentially worse as you expand. No one is going to think that it's sane for dupes to run across the map, build a segment of ladder, run back, fertilize a farm or two, and then try to continue building the ladder only to be pulled back by another farm errand. This happens with enable proximity as well.

[Ecu]

1 minute ago, Giltirn said:

To me this is a very real criticism of the role to which this formerly very valuable item has been consigned.

Wheezeworts are still very useful, though.  This is why your doom and gloom responses come off as hyperbolic.  The difference now is that wheezeworts aren't as exploitable as they used to be.  The maintenance makes exploiting them more of an investment.  Sure, you might personally find said investment better spent towards other methods of heat management.  However, just because you personally might find less appeal in their usage, doesn't mean others might not find good uses for them.

As a mod designer for Minecraft, I personally got the same sort of commentary when I had nerfed Ender Storage to reduce the inventory size.  Those whom were used to having the larger storage size complained that it was less useful, even though the role the mod was designed for had not changed at all.

This is how I see the same sorts of responses regarding the heat management changes here.  People got used to using their tools in a certain way, and even though many tools continue to exist to manage heat, they complain because they have to use their available tools differently.  A great example of this is wild farming.  It was reintroduced for only a patch (or few?) of the test branch, and yet I saw many people complaining that it was restricted later to a more balanced state.

So, I suppose I would ask you...  Have you played through the current test branch significantly to see how well you could utilize the current tools?  Have you attempted to use the pip wild farming method (there is a solid thread on the forums here) to see whether you could utilize it to still make good use of things like wheezeworts?  If you have playtested this yourself and found it failing, then by all means suggest changes.  Stating stuff is worthless in a hyperbolic manner doesn't really help anything.

[qda]

22 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

premature heat death

What exactly are you refering about ? I've never, ever, not single time, had a lost colony due to heat, especially early in the game. What on earth are you doing to prematurely die because of heat ?

I can highlight this with Mullematsch's (streamer/youtuber, present here on the forum) last playthrough, videos are online, you can check them. He litterally spent 400 cycles with absolutely no cooling, an open cold steam vent not insulated, left open, 20 tiles away from his printing pod, and a large non-insulated power plant (wood burners/petro/coal) right in the middle of his base. He had no issues with heat whatsoever before cycle 400, at which point he has easy access to the most advanced cooling methods of the game.

Honestly, I really don't understand why people are freaking about heat, especially since the launch beta. There are multiple posts of people dealing with open volcanoes right next to their bases, and manage it very well with proper thinking and clever solutions.

And even if heat management was as tough as you seem to think, why would it lead to bad reviews on release ? Are you trying to scare anyone with such claims ?

Anyway, remember that this game is supposed to be full of challenges that you have to overcome. You have to adapt to a designed world, not the opposite. And in order to adapt, the game, as it is right now, provides you with a ton of different tools. If you don't want to use them, please, be my guest, but don't blame the design.

Edited July 11, 2019 by qda

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, qda said:

[snip]

Heat death is inevitable, it sometimes just takes a really long time to get to it when well managed.

Premature heat death occurs very often with new and unprepared players.

[Gurgel]

Just now, watermelen671 said:

Heat death is inevitable, it sometimes just takes a really long time to get to it when well managed.

Ahem, no? Even with all these ill-advised cooling-nerfs, avoiding heat death is only tedious and takes more work than it should, but it is still entirely possible.

[watermelen671]

4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Ahem, no? Even with all these ill-advised cooling-nerfs, avoiding heat death is only tedious and takes more work than it should, but it is still entirely possible.

Ma dude, I'm talking like, well over twenty thousand cycles.

This is well over two thousand hours of play time (on normal speed), so...it's inevitable, but not entirely realistic.

Edited July 11, 2019 by watermelen671

[Gurgel]

9 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

Ma dude, I'm talking like, well over twenty thousand cycles.

This is well over two thousand hours of play time (on normal speed), so...it's inevitable, but not entirely realistic.

Ahem, no? We can delete heat and more of it than must be produced. Hence no heat-death. 

[watermelen671]

Just now, Gurgel said:

Ahem, no? We can delete heat and more of it than must be produced. Hence no heat-death. 

Ahem, no? I'm talking about the heat death of the universe, aka your PC.

Eventually your PC will die, due to overheating, due to this game lagging on higher cycle counts. That's the heat death I'm referring to. 

[qda]

30 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

Heat death is inevitable, it sometimes just takes a really long time to get to it when well managed.

Premature heat death occurs very often with new and unprepared players.

I may have wrongly worded my opinion.

New players will make mistakes, and die because of it. However, everyone has access to the same tools to manage heat (or anything else for that matter). So, if after 100 in-game hours, one keep building his power plant next to his farm and starve, he can't really blame the design, this is meant to be a simulation/survival game.

What I'm pointing out, is that, in my opinion, the discussion is misoriented :

I believe many players here focus their blames on utility, rather than necessity. I strongly believe that we shouldn't at first blame the utility of the tools we're given, but rather question their necessity. In that regard, wheezeworts have never been necessary to success, nor they are now. That's why they are a tool to reach a given goal, not a step necessary to further progress, since there are many others. That's why a nerf to something not essential in the first place shouldn't lead to such heated discussions. And as such, the question of them being useful or not is, at least to me, irrelevant in two ways : first, heat isn't an important issue within the time scale in which wheezeworts are. And by that, I mean that early game, heat is a minor issue, and wheezeworts, designed to be an early solution, provides a minor cooling. That seems fair to me. And second, they aren't necessary per se, but can be used in their current state, since ressources to make them useful are abundant and renewable.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by qda

[selereth]

Anyone else's power control stations no longer working since this update? Think it has something to do with the fact that power control stations are "outside a power room" even when they're not.

[qda]

12 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Ahem, no? We can delete heat and more of it than must be produced. Hence no heat-death. 

Why all this wheezewort nerf bashing then ?

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, qda said:

[snip]

Spoiler

I do quite enjoy debating with someone who actually debates and explains themselves. 

Anyway I see what you mean now, human error can only be dismissed for so much, and then it becomes the player's fault for not learning and adapting to the rules laid out before them.

2 minutes ago, qda said:

Why all this wheezewort nerf bashing then ?

My thoughts exactly.

[qda]

You :

2 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

I do quite enjoy debating with someone who actually debates and explains themselves. 

Me :

3 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

My thoughts exactly.

[JasonMK]

30 minutes ago, selereth said:

Anyone else's power control stations no longer working since this update? Think it has something to do with the fact that power control stations are "outside a power room" even when they're not.

It's weird.  Originally none of them were.  Now I have one that does and one that doesn't after maybe a dozen reloads to unstick pufts and robominers.  Can't really see any rhyme or reason to why one works and not the other.

[Cypher-7]

3 hours ago, Yunru said:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument"

I learn so much more stuff then i really should from this forum

[Giltirn]

48 minutes ago, qda said:

first, heat isn't an important issue within the time scale in which wheezeworts are. And by that, I mean that early game, heat is a minor issue, and wheezeworts, designed to be an early solution, provides a minor cooling. That seems fair to me. And second, they aren't necessary per se, but can be used in their current state, since ressources to make them useful are abundant and renewable

Renewable only theoretically, not practically unless you constrain yourself to just a handful of worts. I also expect you haven't played Volcanea - this was my first choice in the launch beta, as it sounded quite interesting. You have to rush insulation as pockets of 1000c rock are only 20 odd tiles outside the starter biome and at least in my playthrough there was no contiguous abyssalite boundary to protect me.

Also if heat isn't an issue in early game, and wheezeworts are an early-game heat solution, under what practical circumstances would you ever employ them?

1 hour ago, qda said:

What exactly are you refering about ? I've never, ever, not single time, had a lost colony due to heat, especially early in the game. What on earth are you doing to prematurely die because of heat ?

I can highlight this with Mullematsch's (streamer/youtuber, present here on the forum) last playthrough, videos are online, you can check them. He litterally spent 400 cycles with absolutely no cooling, an open cold steam vent not insulated, left open, 20 tiles away from his printing pod, and a large non-insulated power plant (wood burners/petro/coal) right in the middle of his base. He had no issues with heat whatsoever before cycle 400, at which point he has easy access to the most advanced cooling methods of the game.

Sure, but I bet he was being supported behind the scenes, if not intentionally, by all the fixed-temperature output devices. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this, but to me the fact that everything in the game produces tons of heat and the methods of removal are either non-scalable or non-renewable leads to the turbine being the only practical and scalable solution. Maybe the game should be called "Cooling Not Included" because oxygen is the least of your troubles!

Edited July 11, 2019 by Giltirn

[Dosephshih]

Hopefully the heat dissipation by the light can be reduced, or higher tier of LED lighting can be researched at around cycle 50-100 may be, to reduce the heat in long term. 

[SakuraKoi]

4 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

Congrats on being the third consecutive person to point it out, I'm glad you did, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed!

Well, 4 x 4 is indeed 8 but the plus symbol is a little drunk~ 

1 hour ago, watermelen671 said:

Eventually your PC will die, due to overheating, due to this game lagging on higher cycle counts. That's the heat death I'm referring to. 

I don't need thousand of cycles for that, despite cleaning, the toaster of mine not only overheated (shut-down without message, even my old one did that) due to a 720p 60FPS video but it even suffers from cold deaths hence why I am running it now 24/7 and only restart it every day (it still apparently restarted this night and now I am afraid it is still so cool that it could happen at any time now).

 

In any event, complaining about wiring sure is petty, I also never complain about my favorite templates/blueprints to become useless, on the contrary... I only wish still that the speed bonus is not literary nothing.

[rafker]

Ah, now its more reasonable to make the system automated so the mecha arm wont be consta working

[mathmanican]

Is anyone else thinking, "Whew, good thing they decided to have one final testing phase before the final launch"?

[OxCD]

5 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Is anyone else thinking, "Whew, good thing they decided to have one final testing phase before the final launch"?

Hell yeah ! Many good ideas, and many very interesting concept into this game, but Klei seems to always struggle a bit to implement those ^^ This commu deserves the discount it gets when it bought the game, compared to the final release price.

Edited July 11, 2019 by OxCD

[Grimgaw]

8 hours ago, Giltirn said:

A couple of ranches could support like 4 wheezeworts.

The amount of misinformation about ranching going around these forums lately is staggering. If you're ranching them it's 2 dreckos per wheeze and even then it's just a byproduct to all the Fibre (Plastic), Shells and Meat you get.

It's all on @Klei though for not bothering with tooltips until literally days before release. I shouldn't need external website to know how much Drecko eats and excretes.