[Game Update] - 351082

[Giltirn]

21 minutes ago, qda said:

The amount of ressources they consume ? They consume some phosphorite, in which we literally swim early game, and isn't used for anything else before fertilizer production and good quality plants farming, at which point you certainly can slap a quick drecko ranch on lilies for infinite phosphorite. And very soon after, other cooling methods become available. Which leads to a single valid question : are you certain that you are playing ONI and not some other game ?

You need 4 dreckos per wheezewort, so they are definitely not sustainable in any real quantity. What other cooling method did you have in mind? The only mid-late game cooling mechanism that is truly renewable is the steam turbine or the physics-breaking deletion of heat in hydrogen/gas generators, the latter of which I'm sure will be nerfed as it is just as daft as heat deletion in sieves. Your only other option is venting some resource into space, which needs some kind of renewable source (geyser perhaps).

[Ecu]

1 minute ago, DekothOGN said:

It was an example to point out that some of us build very minimalism with a focus on high decor values. 

Except that with the current patch, your example is a rather poor one as already pointed out.  Simply because light interrupts sleep.

Most of the rooms that require light as part of their room type are actually rooms that would be reasonably large already.  As such the lighting doesn't heavily impact the overall space of the room generally.  As for powering the light, it takes little power and said wiring should be routable rather easily.

[watermelen671]

4 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

A 4 x 4 room is 16 tiles....basic math here guy..4 x 2 would be 8. 

Congrats on being the third consecutive person to point it out, I'm glad you did, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed!

3 minutes ago, wronny said:

Last time I checked 4x4 was 16, not 8.

...

4 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

It was an example to point out that some of us build very minimalism. .

Then don't include lights, it's as simple as that. Don't want to use interwoven mechanics, then...don't use the mechanics.

People on here complaining about how early game stress isn't an issue, so maybe challenge yourself eh?

Edited July 10, 2019 by watermelen671
more accurate forum weapon

[Yunru]

4 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

Once again..early to mid game vs Late game. Automation of that level isn't early to mid game.

Says the guy talking about comfy beds?

Item transport is available quicker than plastic is.

4 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

Once again..early to mid game vs Late game. Automation of that level isn't early to mid game.

Says the guy talking about comfy beds?

Item transport is available quicker than plastic is.

[watermelen671]

Just now, Yunru said:

Says the guy talking about comfy beds?

Item transport is available quicker than plastic is.

Says the guy talking about comfy beds?

Item transport is available quicker than plastic is.

9 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

Once again..early to mid game vs Late game. Automation of that level isn't early to mid game..Jesus some of you are obtuse.

Says you. I've managed to rush Automation by cycle 30. 

And I barely even know how to play the game!

[qda]

5 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

You need 4 dreckos per wheezewort, so they are definitely not sustainable in any real quantity. What other cooling method did you have in mind? The only mid-late game cooling mechanism that is truly renewable is the steam turbine or the physics-breaking deletion of heat in hydrogen/gas generators, the latter of which I'm sure will be nerfed as it is just as daft as heat deletion in sieves. Your only other option is venting some resource into space, which needs some kind of renewable source (geyser perhaps).

Mine your caustic biomes. That will provide all the wheezeworts on your map for hundreds of cycles. By then, I'm pretty sure you'll find a clever solution to your heat issues.

[Gurgel]

55 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

• Look if you hate wheezewort that badly, just delete them from the game. I would rather see them completely gone than to deal with an item that is so completely worthless that it is another seed that ends up cluttering up storage.

Agree on that. They were far from overpowered before. Now they are just useless. It is like the devs are mocking us by leaving them in.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Gurgel

[DekothOGN]

6 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Says the guy talking about comfy beds?

Item transport is available quicker than plastic is.

Says the guy talking about comfy beds?

Item transport is available quicker than plastic is.

So you don't build your base planning for future improvements? That's nice. 

 

I'm not going to continue debating this as I really don't care about your opinions. Simply put it is a stupid change that serves no purpose beyond being annoying. It doesn't improve the game in any meaningful way, it doesn't make the game more challenging it is just an annoyance added for no other reason than to be annoying. If you like dealing with nuisance mechanics, good for you.

[Giltirn]

Just now, qda said:

Mine your caustic biomes. That will provide all the wheezeworts on your map for hundreds of cycles. By then, I'm pretty sure you'll find a clever solution to your heat issues.

Apart from the turbine or venting gases, what "clever solutions" exist which aren't exploits?

[Gurgel]

44 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

Wheezewort have been nerfed into oblivion  (They needed nerfing, but there is a line).

I don't agree they needed nerfing. They never were overpowered. I could have lived with making them half as powerful but keeping the idea intact.

[Yunru]

Just now, DekothOGN said:

So you don't build your base planning for future improvements? That's nice. 

Of course I do, that's why I start with item transport...

[Ecu]

1 minute ago, Giltirn said:

You need 4 dreckos per wheezewort, so they are definitely not sustainable in any real quantity. What other cooling method did you have in mind? The only mid-late game cooling mechanism that is truly renewable is the steam turbine or the physics-breaking deletion of heat in hydrogen/gas generators, the latter of which I'm sure will be nerfed as it is just as daft as heat deletion in sieves. Your only other option is venting some resource into space, which needs some kind of renewable source (geyser perhaps).

Even at four dreckos per wheezewort, that isn't honestly that terrible.  A couple ranches to fuel a cold room and you now have your core temperature managed.  This is also something that can be done early on, with little investment (compared to the steam turbine/aquatuner combo).

As for cooling mechanisms, there are a ton of options.

• Heat gasses and vent them to space.
• Use wheezeworts, as mentioned above.
• Use the ice machine along with the cooling fan.
• Run loops through cold biomes for early/mid game management.
• Utilize the AETN.
• ...

These are just a few ideas for heat management off the top of my head and I'm sure others could come up with more.  If anything, I think the steam turbine and aquatuner combo is too efficient for the simplicity of its setup.  That said, it is an end-game mechanism and as such may be considered balanced accordingly.  Not all methods need to be balanced against each other as they can be based on the colony's current progression.

[DekothOGN]

1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

I don't agree they needed nerfing. They never were overpowered. I could have lived with making them half as powerful but keeping the idea intact.

The fact you could use them for with super compression to basically get an infinite amount of gas into a single tile was a problem. Their cooling power was pretty much fine. It was the exploitative parts of them that needed dealt with.

[watermelen671]

Just now, qda said:

Mine your caustic biomes. That will provide all the wheezeworts on your map for hundreds of cycles. By then, I'm pretty sure you'll find a clever solution to your heat issues.

This. It's not that hard to find multitudes of solutions to any given problem. You just need to have the patience to break the game in order to find it. 

1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

Agree on that. They were far from overpowered before. Now they are just useless. It is like the devs are mocking us by leaving them in.

2 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I don't agree they needed nerfing. They never were overpowered. I could have lived with making them half as powerful but keeping the idea intact.

Ma dude, it's almost like having something that deletes heat should have a major drawback.

Just now, DekothOGN said:

So you don't build your base planning for future improvements? That's nice. 

I'm not going to continue debating this as I really don't care about your opinions. Simply put it is a stupid change that serves no purpose beyond being annoying. It doesn't improve the game in any meaningful way, it doesn't make the game more challenging it is just an annoyance added for no other reason than to be annoying. If you like dealing with nuisance mechanics, good for you.

What are you yammering on about? Maybe take a deep breath, step away for a bit, take a break. 

Hopefully by then you'll have cooled down enough to have a reasonable debate without the thinly veiled ad hominem attacks.

2 minutes ago, Ecu said:

Even at four dreckos per wheezewort, that isn't honestly that terrible.  A couple ranches to fuel a cold room and you now have your core temperature managed.  This is also something that can be done early on, with little investment (compared to the steam turbine/aquatuner combo).

As for cooling mechanisms, there are a ton of options.

• Heat gasses and vent them to space.
• Use wheezeworts, as mentioned above.
• Use the ice machine along with the cooling fan.
• Run loops through cold biomes for early/mid game management.
• Utilize the AETN.
• ...

These are just a few ideas for heat management off the top of my head and I'm sure others could come up with more.  If anything, I think the steam turbine and aquatuner combo is too efficient for the simplicity of its setup.  That said, it is an end-game mechanism and as such may be considered balanced accordingly.  Not all methods need to be balanced against each other as they can be based on the colony's current progression.

This has been discussed ad nauseum in another thread here...

 

[qda]

3 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

Apart from the turbine or venting gases, what "clever solutions" exist which aren't exploits?

And I may add critters hatching at a fixed temperature (and believe me, it can delete A LOT of heat), and plant irrigation.

[Giltirn]

Just now, Ecu said:

Even at four dreckos per wheezewort, that isn't honestly that terrible.  A couple ranches to fuel a cold room and you now have your core temperature managed.  This is also something that can be done early on, with little investment (compared to the steam turbine/aquatuner combo).

As for cooling mechanisms, there are a ton of options.

• Heat gasses and vent them to space.
• Use wheezeworts, as mentioned above.
• Use the ice machine along with the cooling fan.
• Run loops through cold biomes for early/mid game management.
• Utilize the AETN.
• ...

These are just a few ideas for heat management off the top of my head and I'm sure others could come up with more.  If anything, I think the steam turbine and aquatuner combo is too efficient for the simplicity of its setup.  That said, it is an end-game mechanism and as such may be considered balanced accordingly.  Not all methods need to be balanced against each other as they can be based on the colony's current progression.

A couple of ranches could support like 4 wheezeworts. Great, that might be enough to cool my oxidizer, but what about all that hot machinery and every other damn thing pumping out hundreds of thousands of DTUs per second? So yes, we are left with the steam turbine, venting gas into space or several minor non-scalable options like ice machines and the AETN. Cold biomes are map dependent and non-renewable so they can only ever be stopgap solutions.

1 minute ago, qda said:

And I may add critters hatching at a fixed temperature (and believe me, it can delete A LOT of heat), and plant irrigation.

Ah yes, exploits. That's definitely what we should be balancing a game around!

[Gurgel]

2 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

The fact you could use them for with super compression to basically get an infinite amount of gas into a single tile was a problem. Their cooling power was pretty much fine. It was the exploitative parts of them that needed dealt with.

That one I agree with. Never used them for anything than straight cooling. 

[DekothOGN]

2 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

This. It's not that hard to find multitudes of solutions to any given problem. You just need to have the patience to break the game in order to find it. 

Ma dude, it's almost like having something that deletes heat should have a major drawback.

What are you yammering on about? Maybe take a deep breath, step away for a bit, take a break. 

Hopefully by then you'll have cooled down enough to have a reasonable debate without the thinly veiled ad hominem attacks.

You might want to learn the definition of something before flinging out accusations. My statement isn't an ad hominem attack by any definition. It was simply dismissive. 

[situpc]

56 minutes ago, wronny said:

Disabled Water Coolers reign supreme once again. - Until they get the same treatment, tomorrow!

I may be in the minority but I don't think anything should give the morale bonus (or meet room requirements) if it's not functioning. This would include disabled, out of materials, not connected to wiring, etc. I don't think lights should be required for rooms but I would personally like a negative decor value across the board if not lit up, something like -5 or -10. Safe to avoid completely but just enough to warrant spamming them like snazzy suits.

53 minutes ago, Risu said:

So they are finally giving sane numbers? Had to employ an autosweeper and a whole lot of crabs just to barely manage what it was giving before.
 

Yeah it was slightly annoying to need an autosweeper on 24/7 since they practically continuously produced pdirt.

[Yunru]

2 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

You might want to learn the definition of something before flinging out accusations. My statement isn't an ad hominem attack by any definition. It was simply dismissive. 

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument"
 

Let's see:

"Item transport is available sooner than comfy beds."

"Yeah? Well you don't plan for the future!"

Sounds pretty ad hominem to me.

[Giltirn]

3 minutes ago, situpc said:

Yeah it was slightly annoying to need an autosweeper on 24/7 since they practically continuously produced pdirt.

My reading of the note is that they still produce the same amount of pdirt, but they don't just drop tiny amounts each time (which keeps your autosweeper busy wasting electricity) but instead only drop after a certain amount has accumulated.

[Ecu]

5 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Agree on that. They were far from overpowered before. Now they are just useless. It is like the devs are mocking us by leaving them in.

Wheezeworts are just as useful as they were before the change.  However, the main thing is that you now need to dedicate some more infrastructure to utilizing them.  Calling them useless is just being hyperbolic.

2 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

A couple of ranches could support like 4 wheezeworts. Great, that might be enough to cool my oxidizer, but what about all that hot machinery and every other damn thing pumping out hundreds of thousands of DTUs per second? So yes, we are left with the steam turbine, venting gas into space or several minor non-scalable options like ice machines and the AETN. Cold biomes are map dependent and non-renewable so they can only ever be stopgap solutions.

Look at that!  You aren't left with no options and you even have showcased a specific use case for wheezeworts.  Were you expecting to utilize wheezeworts as your only cooling mechanism throughout all of progression?  Seems rather unbalanced for a mechanism to do such a thing without any maintenance, no?  Seems like everything is groovy to me.

[situpc]

42 minutes ago, Harlequin80 said:

Distillery is now a 4 wide building from a 3. Will have to rebuild my still farms as a result, oh well.

Oh nice, I like the unique look of it now. I don't know why but I thought the other art was permanent. 

[EnderCN]

10 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

Apart from the turbine or venting gases, what "clever solutions" exist which aren't exploits?

Feeding hot liquids to plants that don't mind hot liquids isn't an exploit.  Turning hot gasses into energy isn't an exploit.  These things exist in the real world.

[Glassyfo]

43 minutes ago, DekothOGN said:

An efficient sized duplicant room is 4 tiles by 4 tiles. By the time you add a comfy bed a plant and artwork there is exactly 1 tile for a light. Sure space might not be relevant to you if you never progress beyond cots, but some of us have. I have enough wires running various systems in a base where dragging off yet another branch just to run a bunch of silly lights just makes an unnecessary mess. Again let me be clear, it isn't hard, it doesn't add any challenge on any level it is just a nuisance..an irritation that serves Zero purpose. 

Your complaint was about lights needing to be wired which was just stupid. Of course lights should need to be wired! A complaint instead about the very requirement of lights would have been slightly more reasonable. And your example doesn't work, since as seen in wronny's post, bedrooms and barracks don't need lights!

EDIT: I had said 'the post above', but mine got bumped to the next page.

Edited July 10, 2019 by bleeter6