Troxism

Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

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bobucles    298

Many machines allow us to choose what materials they use for operation. It's probably no big deal to add those options to all machines. 

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22 minutes ago, Troxism said:

you can't break down people into 2 groups neatly

didn't say anything about 2 groups. But yeah, this thread was cooling solutions so sorry for the hijack.

5 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

That's why I think not being able to manually drop off bottled liquid is a big question mark because the "workaround" atm is to run algae terrariums in place where you'd want the bottles.

I just use reservoirs where I want the bottles and then deconstruct and build around it. terrariums are slow :)

Personally, I do not draw a line between good use strategy and exploit. It's a single player game. We do not line up and rate bases or build strategies. There is no criteria. It's all just personal choice as to how you want to play the game. Do mass doubling or matter conversion if you want. Anyone who looks down on you for it is being a snob IMO. And there is nothing wrong with not wanting to use those methods either.

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Gurgel    1,121
1 hour ago, nonoxyl said:

I set this up just to test the rate. drip cooling 2 ice machines it took 20 cycles to reduce 12t of 40C water by 10C

So it works actually not that badly. Good to know.

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BaloneyOs    248
4 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

I just use reservoirs where I want the bottles and then deconstruct and build around it. terrariums are slow :)

Personally, I do not draw a line between good use strategy and exploit. It's a single player game. We do not line up and rate bases or build strategies. There is no criteria. It's all just personal choice as to how you want to play the game. Do mass doubling or matter conversion if you want. Anyone who looks down on you for it is being a snob IMO. And there is nothing wrong with not wanting to use those methods either.

Yeah I don't care for peoples' criticism of others' gameplay either. What I'm saying is that from a design perspective it's been really ambiguous ever since the earliest EA stages because these are solutions that can only be achieved through workarounds rather than actual in-game function.

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Yunru    1,087
11 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Anyone who looks down on you for it is being a snob IMO.

I'm just really tall though... :(

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mathmanican    2,254
Posted (edited)

As another cooling option, you can still use liquid pitcher pump cooling. It was nerfed (probably by a factor of 25 - the contents are now insulated is all), so you don't get anywhere near the same cooling power as before, but I think it still beats the ice machine. If the temp difference is enough, it might even beat the turbine.  I'm still testing it, and will start another post on this issue when I get more details. If anyone else wants to beat me to that post, feel free.  I'll add comments as appropriate. 

UPDATE - Pitcher pump cooling appears to be fixed.  I cannot reproduce what I saw yesterday.  Maybe it was ninja fixed in the rollback, or maybe I was just flat out wrong.  Either way, it gone, so YAY!

Edited by mathmanican

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Just now, Yunru said:

I'm just really tall though... :(

snob :)

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bobucles    298
2 hours ago, nonoxyl said:

I set this up just to test the rate. drip cooling 2 ice machines it took 20 cycles to reduce 12t of 40C water by 10C

That's exactly what the ONI cooling calculator implies. The ice machine cooling efficiency was reduced 80% (from ~100kDTUs to ~20kDTUs), so 2 ice machines now would be as good as 0.4 machines pre nerf. That is exactly enough to cool 12 tons of water by 10C over 20 cycles. Not a bad outcome, but certainly not the most efficient setup. I think players underestimate that water is an absolutely fantastic heat sink both in game and IRL. That's one of the main reasons fixed temperature output is so unbelievably powerful. 

For example, cooling 100C water to 40C through a sieve was equivalent to generating 1200kDTUs of cooling power. Heating 20C water to 40C through the same sieve is 400kDTUs of heating. There is nothing trivial about those numbers when even the dedicated space heater doesn't go above 20kDTUs. Fixed temperature outputs are supremely powerful and as a result base design absolutely MUST revolve around their use.

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3 minutes ago, bobucles said:

There is nothing trivial about those numbers when even the dedicated space heater doesn't go above 20kDTUs. Fixed temperature outputs are supremely powerful and as a result base design absolutely MUST revolve around their use.

Sorry, I know it's off topic. Guess what is also really powerful? Dumping heat into to petro up 500C and burning it in a generator with no heat gain to the building. By your argument, this should also go. Where does it stop short of a physics sim?

 

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bobucles    298
Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Dumping heat into to petro up 500C and burning it in a generator with no heat gain to the building. By your argument, this should also go.

Is that something that should stay?  The petroleum generator has an overheat temperature of 75C, is built with mundane ores and plastic. By all rights, pumping 500C fuel into the machine should fry it outright. It's just as crazy as putting chlorine into an electrolyzer. 

It's a bit of a coincidence and a surprise, but the petroleum generator outputs have very nearly the same specific heat capacity as the petroleum input. (1.76x2.0kg vs. .75kgx4.2 and .50kgx0.85). If the heat from the petroleum were passed directly to the output materials, you would achieve NO cooling factor at all, in addition to dumping hot materials directly on your generator. The machine would cook all on its own, without any need to check the inputs.

Edit: Cooling 2kg/s of 500C petroleum fuel into comfy 75C outputs is worth around 1500 kDTU/s of cooling. That's nearly two steam turbines! It's been said before, but ordinary heating and cooling options can't compare.

Edited by bobucles
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Gurgel    1,121
46 minutes ago, bobucles said:

That's exactly what the ONI cooling calculator implies. The ice machine cooling efficiency was reduced 80% (from ~100kDTUs to ~20kDTUs),

So basically one Ice Maker is 2 WWs (pre-nerf). That would mean my standard base-cooking set-up now needs 6...9 of these. Doable. Well, we will see. Fortunately the being very careful with Ice Biomes to preserver the wild SW in there is over. That had started to get on my nerves.

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Troxism    146
Posted (edited)

So, the latest patch actually made another change outside of lowering the min temp of the sieve to 0. It actually gave the Petroleum Generator a min temp of 40C for the water, and it looks like 110C for the CO2 even if the generator's temperature is lower. So it isn't nearly as useful as a cooling tool. Something to note for reference as it's a cooling method that is far more limited now, as you can only produce 40C coolant at best.

Not directly relevant to cooling, but Rust Deoxidizer looks like it's at 75C min output, even higher then the Electrolysers 70C, which doesn't really make much sense, but whatever. I was figuring the Rust should be somewhere between Electrolysis and Algae, like 50C.

Edited by Troxism
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pacovf    441

Is the output from the petroleum generator based on building temperature, or input temperature? 

If the former, it should still be usable for massive cooling. Water has a much higher thermal capacity than CO2, so the outputs average somewhere around 50C, while you can input petroleum up to 500C.

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Troxism    146

It's still building temp. So yeah, it's still usable for petroleum deletion, but you can't get the output water nearly as cold as before.

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Arcus2611    12

Hmm... I think, other than feeding hot ph2o to pincha peppers, it should still be viable to feed heat to slickster farms (as long as you don't raise the temperature so much that you end up breeding molten slicksters).

 

Not sure of the numbers or heat deletion capacity on that though, and the setup mostly stopped working for heat removal once I bred molten slicksters.

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pacovf    441
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Troxism said:

It's still building temp. So yeah, it's still usable for petroleum deletion, but you can't get the output water nearly as cold as before.

Assuming you use petroleum refined from an oil well, you can increase its temperature from 90C to 275C with steel aquatuners, then feed it to the generator. That’s about 620 kDTU/s, if I didn’t mess up my math. The generator produces 20 kDTU/s, and cooling the outputs to, say, 25C will take less than 100 kDTU/s. Makes for total deletion of ~500 kDTU/s.

So, it’s no steam turbine, for sure, but it’s still 6 AETNs.

EDIT: fixed wrong math

Edited by pacovf

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Trego    72
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Nightinggale said:

I seem to go back to the same video again and again today, but maybe that's because people ignored it completely.

Lesson #5 "Don't confuse interesting with fun". Challenges doesn't automatically become fun just because they are new and different.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

You're changing the topic.  Someone complained that there were no new options, I pointed out that there were.  Your point is better aimed at those who brought up the topic of new options in the first place.

13 hours ago, nonoxyl said:

lol. what new options? everything solution here so far is meta. The only non-meta solution suggestion has been from @mathmanican

which is something I have not tried yet and will play with.

Using lumber on conveyor belts as a coolant, using ethanol as a coolant, using ethanol powered generators as a cooling system; are all at least somewhat new, in that lumber and ethanol are new.  They're not completely new, in that they're all similar to existing methods, but then again heating pwater and running it into a sieve is kinda similar to heating ethanol and running it into a generator, so if you don't count them as new, then you shouldn't bemoan the loss of the sieve either.

 

edit: apparently the very latest patch a few hours ago nerfed the petroleum generator as a cooling system pretty hard

Edited by Trego

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DarkMaster13    205
23 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Assuming you use petroleum refined from an oil well, you can increase its temperature from 90C to 275C with steel aquatuners, then feed it to the generator. That’s about 1000 kDTU/s, if I didn’t mess up my math. The generator produces 20 kDTU/s, and cooling the outputs to, say, 25C will take less than 100 kDTU/s. Makes for total deletion of ~850kDTU/s.

So, it’s no steam turbine, for sure, but it’s still 10 AETNs.

With aquaturners?  That's probably consuming more power than the generator gives.  You're getting a similar result to just using a turbine boiler instead.

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Trego    72
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Junksteel said:

Less options than ever and the great new challenge of heat management. They didn't add any new options for cooling, they instead straight nerfed the existing ones and turned the previously unusable steam turbine in the new must use meta. And now switched magic heat deletetion for magic heat increasing. I understand people liked the change and I'm ready to embrace it but not without a greater variety of tools like we used to have in recent past. It's rather boring and I have the impression that people will get pretty tired of steam turbines real soon. Wait and see.

 

No, they added new options (look up two posts for details), and now they've removed magic heat increasing as well.

Edited by Trego

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pacovf    441
Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, DarkMaster13 said:

With aquaturners?  That's probably consuming more power than the generator gives.  You're getting a similar result to just using a turbine boiler instead.

Don’t all scalable heat deletion mechanisms involve aquatuners at some point? Or ice makers, at least?

At any rate, you need just over one aquatuner cooling water to move that amount of heat, so this configuration is still power positive.

EDIT: my original math was wrong, fixed now

Edited by pacovf

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OxCD    375
2 hours ago, Troxism said:

So, the latest patch actually made another change outside of lowering the min temp of the sieve to 0. It actually gave the Petroleum Generator a min temp of 40C for the water, and it looks like 110C for the CO2 even if the generator's temperature is lower. So it isn't nearly as useful as a cooling tool. Something to note for reference as it's a cooling method that is far more limited now, as you can only produce 40C coolant at best.

Not directly relevant to cooling, but Rust Deoxidizer looks like it's at 75C min output, even higher then the Electrolysers 70C, which doesn't really make much sense, but whatever. I was figuring the Rust should be somewhere between Electrolysis and Algae, like 50C.

The minimum for petro gen isn't for me a news as good as recent change to the WS.

Petro gen is hard to cool down. In the same way I like WS changes, I think it should output pH2O at the same temp than it, as it was. It's a reward for cooling it. And it keeps the whole thing in a logical way of doing so. (The minimum should stay a bit hotter than freezing t° of ph2o).

Any test on the NG gen ? I cannot actually.

I really would like they didn't changed it neither, but I think I'll be disappointed...

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goatt    283
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, natanstarke said:

I agree ill not stop playing but the game is more and more having the feeling of  " you have to fo this way or youre doomed".

It's definitely less interesting to play when there are less options. Maybe they should apply those restrictions only to "hard mode".

Edited by goatt
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Posted (edited)

So with the latest changes to sieve output, you can seed your toilet lavatory loop with 20C water and it will overflow 6.7Kg per dupe per cycle of 20C infected polluted water (assuming no heat absorption from your base) which could be used for cooling. Not a lot of mass but its something.

Edited by Guest

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Darkin Coaled    176
23 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

So with the latest changes to sieve output, you can seed your toilet lavatory loop with 20C water and it will overflow 6.7Kg per dupe per cycle of 20C infected polluted water (assuming no heat absorption from your base) which could be used for cooling. Not a lot of mass but its something.

Nah, what you really want to do is set the water to the temperature you want before even building the first flushed toilet. On a cold map you want it at around.. say.. 50-60? Or even go all out and do 95, whatever. On a hot map you want to stay near 0, obviously. How you accomplish that is an exercise left to the reader, but once you do (and remember you only need to do that to 5kg of water ONCE) you can flush-multiply your thermal medium for a few dozen cycles before you come up with a better setup.

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