Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

[miauly]

8 minutes ago, pacovf said:

it the "side effect" of the water sieve is to introduce heat, I would much rather it appeared as DTU production when it's on, rather than raising the temperature of water to 40C. It's more in line with how every other machine works

If the idea behind sieve heating the water is the common "create an undesirable side effect", then let's see how this one measure up. Coal gen produces 9 kDTU, sieve running on 30C PW produces 200 kDTU (if my calculation is correct). If we get 20C water, that's 40 times more.

[Gurgel]

2 minutes ago, Yunru said:

What if you discard the fan and just store the ice in the water?

It was what I was trying before... well, the crashes update.

Then I would just be cooling the water. Probably this somewhat works for cooling down water and then having a cooling loop with that water or tempshift plates from the water to cool down the Ice Maker. If you also cool something else with the water, that part is free. 

I am unsure whether that is worth the effort though. How much heat does the Ice Maker actually delete now? I am also seeing a problem with keeping different water pools separate.  Maybe this would work for a base-cooler with several ice-makers.

[pacovf]

...Just noticed I replied to the other "cooling methods" thread, but I think it would be good to have a dedicated thread about the ice maker / ice fan. Get numbers / builds and so on.

[Nightinggale]

9 minutes ago, miauly said:

If the idea behind sieve heating the water is the common "create an undesirable side effect", then let's see how this one measure up. Coal gen produces 9 kDTU, sieve running on 30C PW produces 200 kDTU (if my calculation is correct). If we get 20C water, that's 40 times more.

It's 20.9 kDTU/sec for each degree C under 40. Compared to steam turbine, that's 20.2 W. Supply with polluted water of -9.5 C and you generate enough heat to make steam turbines produce 1000 W. Sure the steam turbines won't run at this temperature, but it gives an indication about the heat energy added to the base.

[bonzaiferroni]

Sieve heat deletion was just weird. Game physics are not real physics, but in a game where real physics is a theme, it was a bizarre situation. You could cool entire bases with a building that wasn't even intended to be a heat regulation building. I agree with the general the argument that secondary effects are still legitimate and a huge part of the fun in ONI, but when the secondary effects have no logical basis, that's a problem.

Early and mid game cooling is straightforward with cold biomes. Send your sewage water through the cold biome and then around your base before putting it through the sieve. No extra tech needed. Not every map will have a suitable cold biome but those are intended to be an extra challenge.

[miauly]

3 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

It's 20.9 kDTU/sec for each degree C under 40. Compared to steam turbine, that's 20.2 W. Supply with polluted water of -9.5 C and you generate enough heat to make steam turbines produce 1000 W. Sure the steam turbines won't run at this temperature, but it gives an indication about the heat energy added to the base.

It's not an issue not to sieve the water till the end game. It's perfectly possible to go all the way to full endgame with outhouses and without showers (at least at this state of morale and jobs system), and this way the water for wash basins is not that much of an amount compared to the water for research for example. So I do not see this change as something affecting the early and mid game (besides being a trap for newcomers but exactly as it was before, and maybe one tool less for hot maps early game), I see it more as something reducing variety in the end game. It could be used for heat deletion precisely because the SHC of water made it powerful enough to compete with turbine. Now we are getting to "8 steam turbines per map" endgame meta but I have already whined about it in another threads at length.

[Nightinggale]

3 minutes ago, miauly said:

It's perfectly possible to go all the way to full endgame with outhouses and without showers (at least at this state of morale and jobs system), and this way the water for wash basins is not that much of an amount compared to the water for research for example.

1. it tells people how to play instead of giving a choice
2. there are maps with very little clean water, but lots of polluted and/or salt water

4 minutes ago, miauly said:

besides being a trap for newcomers

This is a major part of the topic, at least for some people. I already stated I can just mod if I don't like, but new players are unlikely to mod if they don't like the game. They will drop and possibly post bad reviews. For this reason "traps for newcomers" should be avoided as much as possible.

[goboking]

12 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

it tells people how to play instead of giving a choice

Options for Moving/Deleting Heat, Pre-Patch:

• Wheezeworts
• AETNs
• Ice Machines
• Thermo Regulators
• Aquatuners
• Steam Turbines
• Water Sieves
• Radiators
• Irrigation
• Space

Options for Moving/Deleting Heat, Post-Patch

• Wheezeworts
• AETNs
• Ice Machines
• Thermo Regulators
• Aquatuners
• Steam Turbines
• Water Sieves
• Radiators
• Irrigation
• Space

Have our options really been so curtailed?

[camelot]

I thought the real problem isn't about sieves create heat early game but

• Sieves create massive heat compare to other machines?
• No comparable good way to delete heat mid game except turbines?

Early game (new players at Tera)

• Sieves create heat: OK
• Ice-E Fans is not effective if combine with Ice Makers, needs buff: OK
• Worts and Ices from ice biomes: OK

Mid game (other players at other planets)

• Sieves no longer delete heat
• Skimmers (going to) no longer delete heat
• Methanol Distillers no longer delete heat
• Oil Refinery no longer delete heat
• Electrolyzers (going to) no longer delete heat
• Pincha Pepperplants delete heat
• Water Weeds delete heat (oh wait)
• Venting gases/liquids to space delete heat
• Turbines 

Cooling options?

• Pick maps with Large Glaciers trait
• Pick maps with Cool Slush Geysers/Polluted Water Geysers
• Venting stuffs to space/Dump heat into and sacrifice some biomes
• Plant a lot of Pincha Pepperplants
• Ranching hatches, pacus, slickers that eat hot rocks/algae/carbon dioxide
• Turbines

Suggestions?

• Make Ice-E Fans delete 32kDTU/s of heat
• Guaranteed 2 AETNs. Make it delete 800kDTU/s of heat. Consume 30g/s Hydrogen
• Water Weeds no longer consume bleach stones (feed them salt water at 60 degree C)
• Salt is useless anyway, so make Salted Ice in Ice Maker; delete salt and return water in a new machine. The overall process deletes around 40kDTU/s
• Some specific critter variations that could delete a lot of heat (a crab that eat hot salt and produces 30 degree C sand?)

[mathmanican]

11 minutes ago, camelot said:

Ranching hatches, pacus that eat hot rocks/algae

I like this one.  Dump heat into some pool, and then pass rocks through metal doors/tiles situated at the bottom of it this pool. Then deposit the rocks onto a mesh tile sitting in a vacuum sealed room (using a conveyor chute).  The heat is 100% gone (it will never interact with anything), and you can let your hatches eat is up as much as you want.  This would be much simpler with a temperature sensor on conveyors (Sensory Overload mod), but could be automated without by just turning power on/off to the conveyor loader when the pool temp gets too large. All the useless extra rocks now have a new use - heat absorbers. Should last through 10000 cycles or more, longer than it takes for the dupes to die from forgetting to eat. Heat solved. 

Oh, and of course you can then build stuff with these rocks and reset the temp to 45C, using building clamping to take 300C rocks down to 45C, enabling an infinite heat deletion cycle that beats any steam turbine.  

[Troxism]

Yeah if you are willing to manually build/deconstruct over and over you can abuse tempshift plates and temp clamping pretty hard. Another very cheesy method to destroy a lot of heat.

[camelot]

4 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Yeah if you are willing to manually build/deconstruct over and over you can abuse tempshift plates and temp clamping pretty hard. Another very cheesy method to destroy a lot of heat.

Man, I think everybody wants an automated and scalable solutions, not ones that make the game much less fun

[mathmanican]

Just now, Troxism said:

Another very cheesy method to destroy a lot of heat.

The bulding/descontucting part is definitely cheesy, 100% agreed.  I'd love to see the temperature clamping feature removed, though it would cause havoc once people have opened up space or oil biomes, with no way to put a temp control on material selection (unless you micromanage material selection - not a good step). 

The portion about passing rocks through a hot pool doesn't seem as cheesy, though it definitely exploits the "mesh tiles behave like debris" portion of the code, to prevent  any further heat transfer.  Not as cheesy (debatable), but we don't have a way to hurl these rocks into space (aside from melting them down). 

[Troxism]

3 minutes ago, camelot said:

Man, I think everybody wants an automated and scalable solutions, not ones that make the game less fun

Yeah that is why I didn't bring up stuff like this in the OP. But since some people seem to be asking for oddball 'unintended' solutions to cooling, it's worth at least mentioning in case it interests someone.

[BaloneyOs]

1 minute ago, mathmanican said:

(unless you micromanage material selection - not a good step). 

This is a huge handicap of this game as well. Not being able to regulate supply jobs based on material/temperature is kind of a big deal when you're dealing with for example both 45C sand and 300C regolith and this issue is for the heat management aspect alone.

[mathmanican]

Just now, Troxism said:

Yeah that is why I didn't bring up stuff like this in the OP. But since some people seem to be asking for oddball 'unintended' solutions to cooling, it's worth at least mentioning (I didn't think there would be a desire for such things but I was wrong).

I stayed quite for a while on this thread, because I agree with you that lots of people probably don't want these oddball solutions. I have loved your posts the last week.  Keep em coming. I'll only chime in with "odd ball" solutions when they seem applicable and wanted, and otherwise stay quiet.  

Here is another solution for those who want more cheese. This option can be used very early on any map, and will crush the heat deletion of a steam turbine.  

• Dump your heat into steam (or hydrogen) using aquatuners/thermoregulators.
• Matter convert the steam into chlorine (change the SHC - magical heat deletion). 
• Use whatever method you want to cool the chlorine down (use a nerfed wheezewort in a hydrogen room next to your chlorine room - won't take much to drop the chlorine)
• Matter convert the cold chlorine back into -30C hydrogen which you then use to cool whatever you want. 

It's obviously more cheese.  If people want more options, I could probably list 10 more that use current game mechanics to rapidly cool stuff down.

[Darkin Coaled]

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

This would be much simpler with a temperature sensor on conveyors

rail through a small room with very thin hydrogen atmosphere with a temp sensor? Never tried it but the hydrogen should adjust to whatever temperature the item on the rail is fairly quickly. I think.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Troxism said:

Yeah if you are willing to manually build/deconstruct over and over you can abuse tempshift plates and temp clamping pretty hard. Another very cheesy method to destroy a lot of heat.

And it's one I use all the time retrieving metal from volcanoes. IMO, the temp clamp on new buildings destroys most of the arguments against the magic sieve. Without descent control over material temp, removing the clamp would be a nightmare. Leave the clamp in the game and you just have another example of the magic heat deletion that people are so offended by.

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Then I would just be cooling the water. Probably this somewhat works for cooling down water and then having a cooling loop with that water or tempshift plates from the water to cool down the Ice Maker. If you also cool something else with the water, that part is free. 

I am unsure whether that is worth the effort though. How much heat does the Ice Maker actually delete now? I am also seeing a problem with keeping different water pools separate.  Maybe this would work for a base-cooler with several ice-makers.

I set this up just to test the rate. drip cooling 2 ice machines it took 20 cycles to reduce 12t of 40C water by 10C

[bobucles]

2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

with no way to put a temp control on material selection (unless you micromanage material selection - not a good step). 

That's not entirely true. Each biome tends to have unique materials. If you don't want to grab hot materials, don't choose materials exclusive to a hot biome.

Dupes grabbing dumb things can also be trivially solved with a "forbid" option.

[BaloneyOs]

2 minutes ago, bobucles said:

That's not entirely true. Each biome tends to have unique materials. If you don't want to grab hot materials, don't choose materials exclusive to a hot biome.

Filtration medium, igneous rock, granite, and obsidian all have a rather wide range of temps depending on where you dig. Main problem is that you can't even choose which material to use for stuff like filtration medium.

 

6 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Dupes grabbing dumb things can also be trivially solved with a "forbid" option.

Yea we wish!

[Troxism]

1 hour ago, nonoxyl said:

And it's one I use all the time retrieving metal from volcanoes. IMO, the temp clamp on new buildings destroys most of the arguments against the magic sieve. Without descent control over material temp, removing the clamp would be a nightmare. Leave the clamp in the game and you just have another example of the magic heat deletion that people are so offended by.

There is a bit of a flaw with the reasoning, because with the same reasoning you could just as easily say 'Well matter duplication currently exists (and yes an example of a 'practical' build for doing this has been posted before by mathmanican), so you can make an infinite amount of basically anything with little effort, so everything should cost zero resources because it doesn't matter as long as matter duplication is in the game.' One thing being broken doesn't mean it's okay for everything else to be broken, as that is a very slippery slope to go down, and there are many serious bugs in the game that are still around, usually because they are difficult to fix. You could also flip the logic, as there are many things in the game that are really underpowered/useless too, so clearly everything else should be nerfed to that level. It just doesn't really work that way though.

Another way to reword that argument is: 'well heat clamping is kind of broken, which justifies any sort of other heat deletion, but heat clamping is too hard to fix without causing other huge annoyances, so therefore we can't fix heat clamping, and therefore anything else is justified.' It's circular logic.

On the specific subject of temp clamping, as mentioned, simply removing it would cause way too much hassle for players as dupes just take the closest pile of materials, and something like a 'forbid' option suggested in the above post would have to be added at a bare minimum. That still wouldn't fully fix the issue as you would still have to micromanage all digs of hot materials (or make everything auto-forbid which would be annoying). And that would at the very least take adding some new UI, which would take work, so it's not that shocking it hasn't been changed yet, because temp clamping is rarely intentionally abused, meaning it's not a high priority considering the difficulties of changing it. Putting an expectation/requirement on devs that they aren't allowed to change anything, if they don't fix EVERYTHING else that might be problematic at the same time doesn't really make much sense as it's just not practical.

Edit: Was incorrect about something, removed it.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Another way to reword that argument is: 'well heat clamping is kind of broken, which justifies any sort of other heat deletion, but heat clamping is too hard to fix without causing other huge annoyances, so therefore we can't fix heat clamping, and therefore anything else is justified.' It's circular logic.

You are still not understanding my perspective. I do not care about magic heat deletion. It's just fine by me. Your camp in this discussion are the ones who think this should be a physics sim. If you complain about magic heat deletion in the sieve, next it the will the building clamp that is unrealistic and should be changed. I wouldn't have a problem with this if they had added material temp controls and thus new options for builds. but they didn't and there is no sign they will. So even though the magic sieve is gone, you're still not going to have your physics sim so what is the point? I am making my argument based on what is in the game now.

[BaloneyOs]

4 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Another way to reword that argument is: 'well heat clamping is kind of broken, which justifies any sort of other heat deletion, but heat clamping is too hard to fix without causing other huge annoyances, so therefore we can't fix heat clamping, and therefore anything else is justified.' It's circular logic.

The game is in a weird spot right now when it comes to the fine line between feature and exploit. A good example is being able to generate oxygen through bottled PH2O offgassing and deodorizers for an incredibly low cost, but not being able to manually bottle PH2O and drop it on the ground. It is simply the best means of generating O2 early game and still very powerful later on... until you want a bottle emptier for PH2O that's not on sweep only.

You're right about the snake eating its own tail here and the snake itself seems to be confused as well.

[Troxism]

I never said I wanted a full physics sim. My 'camp' (didn't know this was about 'camps' and 'sides', either way as can be seen by this thread you can't break down people into 2 groups neatly as there are a lot more issues brought up then just physics realism) is that I think people should explore the other alternatives we have that people have been ignoring for a while (hence my summarising them). Edit: This btw was the main reason I was generally positive about the change, because I expected it to lead to more usage/exploration of alternatives rather then using a single strategy. And if those alternatives are not sufficient to make the game reasonably playable for the average player, then further changes should be made to either improve existing methods or add more methods. That is the point of testing.

This game breaks physics at every turn in ways most people don't even think about or ever mention and fixing all of those would be impractical for all kinds of reasons anyways, so I was never much for 'pure physics' myself in the context of this game. My point was never about physics, but pointing out a flaw in the reasoning used to argue for why sieve cooling should have remained in the game. The point of the thread was to have a conversation about the remaining cooling methods, not to get dragged into debating the sieve changes. But in all fairness I was the one who continued it after it was brought up, so it's my fault.

P2O offgassing is intended (there are some nice builds for it using airflows to increase surface area to make it work on an industrial scale, so the bottle thing isn't really needed), as it's just 1 to 1 water to oxygen conversion (which is very much in line with other methods of making oxygen), closer comparison would be Morbs since those just make polluted oxygen out of nothing and can be 'farmed' with outhouses for no resource cost.

On a lighter note, personally ever since QoL MKIII I've always been partial to adding another late game cooling method as an alternative for turbines (as I have been thinking about the lack of late game alternatives since then), and a suggestion I've seen a lot is some kind of space radiator that slowly radiates heat from coolant pumped through it. An idea I've heard to make it not completely brain-dead (not my own idea) just spamming these was to make the cooling work much faster with much higher temperatures, so that you would still want to heat the coolant up to very high temps first for optimal efficiency. Would still probably need some other limitations, but would be an interesting alternative with the right resource/physical space costs since it would have to be in a vacuum to work.

[BaloneyOs]

4 minutes ago, Troxism said:

P2O offgassing is intended (there are some nice builds for it using airflows to increase surface area to make it work on an industrial scale, so the bottle thing isn't really needed), as it's just 1 to 1 water to oxygen conversion (which is very much in line with other methods of making oxygen), closer comparison would be Morbs since those just make polluted oxygen out of nothing and can be 'farmed' with outhouses for no resource cost.

With bottles you can do it on an industrial scale early in the game for an extremely low cost. The difference between using pooled and bottled PH2O for offgassing is staggering because the rate is a % of its density and bottled liquid allows for infinite density in a compact space. Morbs need many more cycles to be set up to achieve anything close, not to mention the slimelung. That's why I think not being able to manually drop off bottled liquid is a big question mark because the "workaround" atm is to run algae terrariums in place where you'd want the bottles. This is really similar to having to plant seeds manually by destroying a container rather than with a built-in function.

I could care less that it's unbalanced and I do like using it but objectively intended vs unintended behavior seems still kind of unclear right now because of these types of imbalance.