Troxism

Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

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Trego    72
16 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

So many responses are just "use the meta. it works. it's fun for me so it should be fun for you too. Shut up and quit whining."

For a sandbox game to be fun for me, it needs more options to experiment with, not less. I do not care about the realism of the building or the physics. I care about the fact a major form of heat reduction was removed without providing anything new to replace it. Thus eliminating possible build options that were available to me one patch ago. That would be fine if new options were available as a replacement. People say this change will "force people to be creative". Sorry, but I don't need incentive to experiment. It's why I play the game in the first place.

Let me give an example. I like playing with self imposed rules. The latest has been the "no wort, no aetn" rule. I found it to be a refreshingly fun way to play. Now that play option just became a straight path to aquatuners and turbines. I will give it a single playthrough but I know already it is just going to be a slog because there are no new challenges, just tools removed from my toolbox.

There are new options and challenges, detailed in this thread, you're just choosing to ignore them.  That's your choice, but they still exist.

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5 minutes ago, Trego said:

There are new options and challenges, detailed in this thread, you're just choosing to ignore them.  That's your choice, but they still exist.

lol. what new options? everything solution here so far is meta. The only non-meta solution suggestion has been from @mathmanican

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

Bingo. Add liquid duplication to the cooling options. The ice maker essentially creates a 100% increases in mass at 0C water when coupled with rails. Its very over powered. It's reliable. 

which is something I have not tried yet and will play with.

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Gurgel    1,121
1 hour ago, Lurve said:

 Objecting that things are being built to spec instead of having creatively usable side effects is an artist's objection. 

Nope. Or only if you are talking about not very good engineers. Any good engineer knows that creativity is an essential part of their work. I do agree that there are a lot of bad engineers around that do not understand that. Especially in software you also have a lot of people that fancy themselves to be engineers, when in actual reality they are technicians at best, and not good ones either.

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JonnyMonroe    149

I'm just gonna dump some thoughts here;

I always felt like early game techs and options were very specifically designed to introduce new players to the problems they will need to overcome in ONI in a fairly linear fashion. The first problem a new player encounters is dupes peeing themselves. They build a bathroom. Now they need to source dirt and handle waste. That's fine, dirt is plentiful early on and waste doesn't actually create problems for a while yet. After that, they may find stress climbing and need to build beds. Great, players are now introduced to both the morale system and the rooms system. By now your starting food and O2 are probably getting slim (and for most players you're on your 2nd or 3rd colony already). You get the algae diffuser and access to basic farming fairly quickly, but to be sustainable both of these things require you to start exploring out a bit for resources and seeds. Once you have those stable you will probably start to notice your initial water supply is running low and, if you built lavatories/algae stills early, you are building up waste water somewhere. So the next solution for a new player is the sieve, which solves both of these issues. What's the next problem from here? Heat management. That waste water and the natural pH2O pools are fairly cool, and a base entering into the early-mid game won't have many machines, and nothing spewing out tons of heat. But the sieve? That thing is taking in your nice 25c waste water and putting out 40c clean water. Nothing early game is generating anywhere close to as much heat as this thing. Fairly soon your bristles are withering. I believe this is entirely intentional by Klei as this is the point in the game where they want new players to have to tackle a major heat source, potentially in or near their base. The solution this time isn't just another simple building in place since ice fans won't cut it. Heat isn't easily deleted that early on so the player instead has to look at options for moving that heat. Where and how they move it is left up to the player, which I very much prefer over a simple 'here's the next problem, here's the building that solves that, here's the problem that building introduces' setup. Heat management is one of the few problems that doesn't have a stupidly simple solution built into a building. Even the Turbine has a relatively large set of requirements to meet to function, and needs other supporting infrastructure to work for heat deletion. But the sieve? You just build it and dump heat into it and it's gone. I think that's why they left the 40c lower limit but lifted the upper limit. The output temperature is meant to be a problem for the player, not a solution.

 

Back on point for the topic though - Mid game cooling is easy for any player willing to think about a solution or, if they prefer, research one. You lost a crutch. Learn to walk.

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Junksteel    624
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Trego said:

There are new options and challenges, detailed in this thread, you're just choosing to ignore them.  That's your choice, but they still exist.

Less options than ever and the great new challenge of heat management. They didn't add any new options for cooling, they instead straight nerfed the existing ones and turned the previously unusable steam turbine in the new must use meta. And now switched magic heat deletetion for magic heat increasing. I understand people liked the change and I'm ready to embrace it but not without a greater variety of tools like we used to have in recent past. It's rather boring and I have the impression that people will get pretty tired of steam turbines real soon. Wait and see.

 

Edited by Junksteel
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Nightinggale    959
19 minutes ago, Trego said:

There are new options and challenges, detailed in this thread, you're just choosing to ignore them.  That's your choice, but they still exist.

I seem to go back to the same video again and again today, but maybe that's because people ignored it completely.

Lesson #5 "Don't confuse interesting with fun". Challenges doesn't automatically become fun just because they are new and different.

Spoiler

 

 

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Yunru    1,081
14 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

lol. what new options? everything solution here so far is meta.

I mean, sure. If, as you do, you consider everything the game provides to be meta. 

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Gurgel    1,121
1 hour ago, Darkin Coaled said:

As an engineer I must object. Your prof is right, if it works you should use it, even if it's counter-intuitive and looks just plain wrong. But what you're doing is not engineering with what you have, matching bits to other bits to achieve the desired results. You're moaning that the bits you were given before have morphed into other bits and you want your old toys back.

No. You do not get to quote a wise man and then go on bitching. You're an engineer..? ENGINEER THINGS.

You are mistaken. And wherever did I say I want the old things back? What I want is _options_. And they are reducing them. That is what I do not like here. I am entirely fine with new options instead of old ones. And while I can get by with minimal options and reach goals, this is entertainment, not work. Doing hard stuff with minimal and broken tools is what I do enough of at work and there I get paid for it. If a game is making me do non-fun work stuff, then that is just wrong.

1 hour ago, Risu said:

What the game needs is to stop creating energy out of nothing and destroying energy out of something. Take plants for example. Why is the mass a constant and why does the produce not reduce mass even though it has mass itself. Just added energy into the world by harvesting that plant. The complete disregard for thermodynamics has really put me off of this game.
 

No, it does not. This is not a physics simulation, it is a _game_. If you want a physics simulation, look elsewhere. And you have apparently missed things like the completely unrealistic "dupes", the magic communication with them, the "printer", etc. This game is by its very idea hugely unrealistic. And that is part of what makes it a good game.

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

Bingo. Add liquid duplication to the cooling options. The ice maker essentially creates a 100% increases in mass at 0C water when coupled with rails. Its very over powered. It's reliable. 

Don't quite understand what you mean here. Have a picture or explanation?

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goboking    1,524
10 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

I understand people liked the change and I'm ready to embrace it but not without a greater variety of tools like we used to have in recent past. It's rather boring and I have the impression that people will get pretty tired of steam turbines real soon.

Again, there are more ways to manage heat than just steam turbines.

 

7 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

What I want is _options_. And they are reducing them. That is what I do not like here. I am entirely fine with new options instead of old ones.

They're actually encouraging you (the general collective, not you specifically) to use the other options you've been eschewing in favor of water sieves.  I'd wager most experienced players hardly ever use thermo regulators.  With this change, they may feel encouraged, coerced even, into giving them a try.  Maybe some of those players will engineer perfectly viable cooling systems using thermo regulators.  Others might turn to aquatuners.  Others still might use radiators.  Some will no doubt combine elements of all three.  But the points is there are still options available, and this change might be just what's needed to get players to explore those options.

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Troxism    146
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

Bingo. Add liquid duplication to the cooling options. The ice maker essentially creates a 100% increases in mass at 0C water when coupled with rails. Its very over powered. It's reliable. 

Heh. I considered that, but it was so blatantly exploity (made up words FTW) (mass duplication) I figured I wouldn't mention it. Since it doesn't just generate cooling but a lot of other stuff (in that case, water too, which pretty much runs the entire game).

Honestly I didn't expect this to blow up so much and I'm kind of sad the thread mostly turned into a shouting match rather then a conversation (I think the whole debate about IRL stuff is kind of beside the point). I sort of regret posting in the first place as it seems like the thread touched a lot of nerves on a sore subject, and it may have been better to wait a bit for people to think about it more, I just figured it was relevant to give some information on alternative cooling methods so people had a chance to try other options if they weren't aware of them already. In general there seems to be a few camps: people who want more late game cooling options for variety (usually the proposed idea is space radiators), people who want more early game options for variety, and then people who think it's too hard to cool in the early game now (separate issue from variety). Some people obviously fall into multiple of those categories. That is sort of part of the reason the conversation is so messy, and it's probably because I made the post too generalised.

A couple points to try to add to what was said....

Someone mentioned using ethanol for cooling... It turns into gas at about 78C, so as mentioned in the OP the only way to cool with it is to heat the gas, and then vent the gas into space, as there isn't any way to burn off the gas currently.

It seems a few people don't understand the concept of how aquatuners let you use high temperature coolant for low target temperature cooling jobs (Obviously not everyone, I'm just trying to get everyone on the same page however). So TLDR is: Tuners move heat, which is useless on paper but their power is in their ability to create a heat differential, as they can use 'coolant' up to their overheat temp (175C with gold, 275C with steel), and then that coolant can either be cooled (turbine) or destroyed once it's too hot. This means you can use for example 150C petroleum to 'cool' 75C water down to 30C, which wouldn't be possible with just a radiator (ie direct heat exchange) and that is why it's worth paying 1200W to run the tuner, and why Steel tuners are so much more useful, even outside of Steam Turbines. Yes I realise what I just said might seem dead obvious to a lot of people, but I wanted to clarify as it seemed there was a little confusion. Apologise if it sounds insulting to anyone.

I also don't understand some of the objections about 'meta'. It's a vaguely defined catch-all term that basically seems to be used as a 'thumbs down' on any strategy the user doesn't like, because apparently too many other people do it? In and of itself that isn't even a problem (any definition can be valid if people agree on it), but it's used in a way where it's obvious nearly every person using the term has a different definition, and debating about things like that when nobody actually agrees on a definition for a key term is well, quite fruitless. It's the same as arguing about 'fun', as different people find different things fun. An obvious example of this, although not relevant to this thread specifically: some people like really punishing, challenging games (and therefore find them 'fun'), and others find them frustrating. Now think back to conversations you have read/been a part of about games like that, and realise how many times people argued about 'fun' as if it was some universal norm with no deviation. My point here is, vague loosely defined terms don't really help anyone as both people see the same term as different things, and can't understand why the other person 'just doesn't get it!'

Klei actually did explain their reasoning on why the sieve outputs at a min of 40C (some people said they have been silent on this which isn't really accurate). The TLDR summary is basically something like: The core design philosophy of this game is that every machine solves one problem, and then creates another. For example the Electrolyser solves your oxygen problem, but creates hydrogen as a side effect, meaning you then have to deal with the hydrogen by burning it off in a generator. The Aquatuner cools the stuff pumped through it, but doesn't actually destroy, just moves the heat into itself. Ect ect. The idea was that the sieve was supposed to have the side effect of generating heat as it's version of this sort of thing.

Now obviously you can disagree with that reasoning, but it does make basic sense from a game design perspective (not from an IRL logic perspective, but this game has never really been about that). Either way I'm just presenting it here because that is more or less their argument.

 

I'd say more, but this is probably already too long and too 'meta' (ironic, no) of a post anyways.

Edited by Troxism
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11 minutes ago, Yunru said:

I mean, sure. If, as you do, you consider everything the game provides to be meta. 

Come on. Most everything suggested has been straight forward use of buildings that has been know for a long time. Using mass doubling with the ice makers was something @mathmanican came up with a while back and is the first suggestion here that is not meta. 

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mathmanican    2,245
19 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

That waste water and the natural pH2O pools are fairly cool, and a base entering into the early-mid game won't have many machines, and nothing spewing out tons of heat. But the sieve? That thing is taking in your nice 25c waste water and putting out 40c clean water. Nothing early game is generating anywhere close to as much heat as this thing. Fairly soon your bristles are withering.

This is what makes a MOGOM hugely over powered.  Don't sieve the PH20, and just off gas it.  You prevent slimelung as you PO2 is full of food poisoning. You keep the water cool, and you can effectively avoid the heat problem for several hundred (or more) cycles.

16 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Have a picture or explanation?

Do you recall the water duplicator post? Here's a link:

Spoiler

 

You can use an icemaker with this (instead of aquatuners), and get the same results (at lower speed). It will cool a steam geyser down to 20C pretty quickly.  When/If they fix liquid duplication, this will break (just like the sieve is broken now), but until then this is a "feature", albeit a downright overpowered exploit.  This beats the steam turbine hands down, in fact it beats any cool slushy as well. And it's portable, buildable anywhere, and makes heat management completely trivial (and can be setup once you have a metronics engineer).

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gotnoface    29
Posted (edited)

I'm completely cool /snicker with the fix temp changes and I would actually welcome even more changes like for example natgas and petroleum gen outputs not being based on mahcine temperature.

But what I'm really cross with is that it's been a few months and Klei has been actively limiting our options to deal with certain problems and not giving us tools to counterattack. If they want to stick to their motto of one machines solves, but creates another problem, then they should give us something new and fun to use, instead of forcing players to find meta solutions, which are cross with this spirit.

We already have tons of "magic heat" that gets introdduced to the asteroid by orders of mega DTUs. Why not have something magical that does that in the reverse? For example bacteria that eat heat, but are deadly to dupes and critters, that would be interesting problem.

Anyway, that's beside the point - we need more tools/toys. The only two worthy solutions to heat now are just veting coolant into space and turbines. Wheezes and AETNs are just like pissing into the ocean. And so are Ice Makers and Fans. Early game is okay with these, but mid and late will make you copypaste just two aforementioned solutions literarly everywhere.

Edited by gotnoface

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24 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Heh. I considered that, but it was so blatantly exploity (made up words FTW) (mass duplication) I figured I wouldn't mention it.

I think you are failing to understand the perspective of other players who do not share your goals in the game. I like buildings that have weird side effects. I like experimenting with combinations of these weird effects. As stated before, I do not care about the sieve in and of itself. I care about options that I can play around with. When the game becomes a scenario with only a few paths to progress, it has lost much of its entertainment value for me. I see this change, in combination which other recent changes, as a step in that direction.

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Nightinggale    959
4 minutes ago, goboking said:

They're actually encouraging you (the general collective, not you specifically) to use the other options you've been eschewing in favor of water sieves.

But the issue is that "other options" have also been removed or nerfed. The thread keeps referring to "other options", but it's rarely specific of some non-nerfed and not underpowered solution.

8 minutes ago, goboking said:

I'd wager most experienced players hardly ever use thermo regulators.  With this change, they may feel encouraged, coerced even, into giving them a try.  Maybe some of those players will engineer perfectly viable cooling systems using thermo regulators.  Others might turn to aquatuners.  Others still might use radiators.

Two issues with that approach.

  1. they move heat, hence they move the problem
  2. much higher power usage and much later in the tech tree

This creates a lot of cases where the alternative you bring up can't be used where the water sieve approach would work. What you end up with is a game where you have to race to get certain techs within a relatively short timespan. That's both new player hostile and damaging towards player freedom. Not starting with an awesome researcher shouldn't make the colony a lost cause.

15 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Klei actually did explain their reasoning on why the sieve outputs at a min of 40C (some people said they have been silent on this which isn't really accurate). The TLDR summary is basically something like: The core design philosophy of this game is that every machine solves one problem, and then creates another. For example the Electrolyser solves your oxygen problem, but creates hydrogen as a side effect, meaning you then have to deal with the hydrogen by burning it off in a generator. The Aquatuner cools the stuff pumped through it, but doesn't actually destroy, just moves the heat into itself. Ect ect. The idea was that the sieve was supposed to have the side effect of generating heat as it's version of this sort of thing.

While they said that (and indeed they said something like that), it doesn't change the fact that it's gamebreaking for the fun factor. The main problem is the change doesn't solve the original problem, which is new players will heat up their bases and be confused to where the heat comes from. The other problem is the problem caused by the water sieve is too powerful because people encounter it prior to inventing aquatuners and similar high tech solutions and the low tech like WW have been nerfed and on some maps getting cooling from the map isn't an option.

Also it's actually the people who are fine with whatever Klei does who talks about the water sieve. The objections are about the lack of tools to cool. There isn't a gigantic cry for "bring back the water sieve at fixed 40 C". It's more like "now they feed us 40 C water. How do we grow plants with max 30 C?".

Most of the alternative solutions brought up in this thread are all late game or not present on all maps.

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BaloneyOs    248
49 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

I always felt like early game techs and options were very specifically designed to introduce new players to the problems they will need to overcome in ONI in a fairly linear fashion.

That waste water and the natural pH2O pools are fairly cool, and a base entering into the early-mid game won't have many machines, and nothing spewing out tons of heat. But the sieve? That thing is taking in your nice 25c waste water and putting out 40c clean water. Nothing early game is generating anywhere close to as much heat as this thing.

Personally I play Klei's games because I'm a big fan of their design philosophies. Minimum output temp, IMHO, is a design decision that belongs in the dumpster fire for more reasons than I can think of.

Removing magical heat deletion IMO is fine and possibly even warranted, but half-assing that change mostly shows that they're grasping at straws for balance and are struggling with consistency. Furthermore, I thought they wanted to move away from the linear experience, hence the dramatically increased asteroid varieties and features?

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pacovf    438
Posted (edited)

I would like to thank Troxism for his unrelenting helpfulness and politeness in this thread, despite how it has evolved.

A couple things (which will more than likely get lost in the rapid flurry of messages in this thread, alas):

- it the "side effect" of the water sieve is to introduce heat, I would much rather it appeared as DTU production when it's on, rather than raising the temperature of water to 40C. It's more in line with how every other machine works. I am also not sure it needs more side effects than the power consumption, some mild heat production, and having to deliver dirt / deal with the polluted dirt. It's a fairly early game building.

- heat is a problem in the terra asteroid because you start surrounded by slime and caustic biomes, which are hotter than the sandstone biome, and hotter than what mealwood and bristle blossoms want. You don't need the water sieve to make heat an early game problem.

 

Vaguely related, I do think heat management is kind of more awkward than it needs to be right now. If it was up to me, I would make wheezeworts/thermoregulators/aquatuners remove heat based on DTUs, rather than temperature. And I would put an option on thermoregulators and aquatuners so that they reverse the way they work, heating up the input and cooling down the environments; it would simplify some early game setups. Also, the thermoregulator could come earlier in the tech tree, for sure.

 

Edited by pacovf
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Troxism    146
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

Most of the alternative solutions brought up in this thread are all late game or not present on all maps.

Quote

 Ice Maker/Ice Fans which do delete heat and are a universal, early game option that you can use on ANY map. If people's reasoning is that they are too weak for the early game due to changes/nerfs, fine, but nobody ever seems to bring them up when they talk about being forced to 'rush turbines'. And frankly if they are way too weak, then that is an issue worth talking about, and maybe asking devs for a change. But nobody seems to even consider them, which is ironic, considering the lack of options is a major topic for debate.

Sure you can say 'most isn't the same as all', and that is completely fair but nobody even mentions what their issue with the Ice Maker/Fan, they just ignore it's existence. And I'm sorry to pick a specific example, but this is endemic to the thread, I just can't quote every example as it would be silly.

Overall not really sure what to say. In general people just keep repeating the same stuff without addressing anything that was brought up, as if simply restating your position is making it stronger? If that is how these forums are supposed to work, then not sure what the point of them is as what that amounts to is a bunch of people yelling at the sky.

Edited by Troxism
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Gurgel    1,121
30 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Also on a different note, people seem to be constantly overlooking the Ice Maker/Ice Fans which do delete heat and are a universal, early game option that you can use on ANY map.

I tried that recently. Ice Maker next to Ice Fan. It did cool down my water reserves, as the water from the Ice Fan drops at 5C. It did significantly heat up the area with the Ice Maker and Ice Fan. Hence this seems a rather complicated solution for a not really good result and hard to use in addition. Sure, if you have some sacrificial location somewhere you can place the Ice Maker, it works somewhat.

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Lurve    367
1 minute ago, Troxism said:

Sure you can say 'most isn't the same as all', and that is completely fair but nobody even mentions what their issue with the Ice Maker/Fan, they just ignore it's existence. And I'm sorry to pick a specific example, but this is endemic to the thread, I just can't quote every example as it would be silly.

I mentioned it on page 2.  It's a good idea to use for transferring heat, but a little dupe-heavy for only 30 kg at once.

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gotnoface    29

Though the nerfs to Ice Maker and the name seems liek Klei do not want for it to become cooling solution.... but just the machine that does exactly what it say on the tin.

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Gurgel    1,121
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

But what I'm really cross with is that it's been a few months and Klei has been actively limiting our options to deal with certain problems and not giving us tools to counterattack. If they want to stick to their motto of one machines solves, but creates another problem, then they should give us something new and fun to use, instead of forcing players to find meta solutions, which are cross with this spirit.

Well, I guess that is pretty much what I do not like as well. In isolation, I have no problem with the last changes. But I do not like the overall tendency to reduce our tools one bit.

Edited by Gurgel
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Yunru    1,081
2 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I tried that recently. Ice Maker next to Ice Fan. It did cool down my water reserves, as the water from the Ice Fan drops at 5C. It did significantly heat up the area with the Ice Maker and Ice Fan. Hence this seems a rather complicated solution for a not really good result and hard to use in addition. Sure, if you have some sacrificial location somewhere you can place the Ice Maker, it works somewhat.

What if you discard the fan and just store the ice in the water?

It was what I was trying before... well, the crashes update.

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