Troxism

Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

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Lurve    367
2 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

And seriously, stop insisting I do not know what I am, it is hugely offensive.

If you're going to thump your background to make a point, other people get to thump back.

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Guinaro    31
3 minutes ago, goboking said:
  • Wheezeworts (though less so now)
  • Ice Makers
  • AETNs
  • Thermo Regulators
  • Aquatuners
  • Radiators

Any combination of the above will work fine for keeping a base cool.

The only ones I see that are actual heat deletion tools are Wheezeworts and AETNs, which only appear on certain asteroids.
The rest are heat movers. You can move heat all over your asteroids, but in the end you will suffer from heat death.
In essence we need to take into consideration that all energy can be converted into matter, heat or power.
For a balanced game that is what Oni should strive for.
You start with a certain mass at a certain temperature on your asteroid.
You add heat with most machines.
You add heat with most geysers.
You can delete heat with Wheezeworts, AETNs, Steam Turbines.
You can delete heat with Cool Slush Geysers and to a lesser degree (taking room temperature into account) Polluted Water Vents.
You can vent gasses and liquids into space.
You can do Rocket Missions and haul back more goods that add or decrease energy on your asteroid.
You can have map traits such as Frozen Core and Glaciers which provided you with extra leeway for keeping your base cool for a while, but is not actual heat deletion.

So what options do you have at early/midgame guaranteed on any asteroid: Not a single one.
What options is guaranteed in late game: Steam Turbine and venting liquids and gasses.

Now some asteroids won't really pose an issue until late game. But still we need more balancing of actual heat deletion tools.
I'm not advocating for powerful tools at early stages, but at least one that guaranteed works on every asteroid isn't too much to ask.
If we have machines that can magically add or remove heat. At least offer us a low/mid tier version too.

 

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nakomaru    1,255
Just now, EnderCN said:

It is a symbiotic relationship, both of them are deleting heat through combined action.  Neither one is destroying it on its own.

Wrong.

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OxCD    375
2 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

No. It's in the patch notes. The ice maker now destroys 20% of the heat rather than almost all of it.

Thanks for this reminder !

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EnderCN    61
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Wrong.

No, actually 100% correct.  If you have a pepper plant and it isn't being fed pO2 it isn't deleting any heat.  If you have a pipe full of hot pO2 being moved around it isn't deleting heat.  You put that pipe into the plant and suddenly you are deleting heat.  They work together.  Neither is doing the deleting on its own.

Edited by EnderCN

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Yunru    1,093
34 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

What are those viable options besides steam turbine? I can't see anything effective. World traits and rigged seeds? Sounds fun...

Are... are we seeing the same thread?

Because I see a whole list of viable options in the OP. (Even if the non-fixed output ones boil down to Wheezeworts, Ice Maker, AETN, and Steam Turbine.)

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Lurve    367

In the early game, there's a lot of asteroid you aren't using.  You can push the heat to other parts of it, and delete it later.

Late game, I'd like to see a space radiator, that uses coolant piped in hot and piped out slightly cooler, as long as the machine has space exposure.

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Yunru    1,093
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Guinaro said:

The only ones I see that are actual heat deletion tools are Wheezeworts and AETNs, which only appear on certain asteroids.
The rest are heat movers.

The Ice Maker deletes heat.

12 minutes ago, Guinaro said:

So what options do you have at early/midgame guaranteed on any asteroid: Not a single one.

See above.

Edited by Yunru

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Gurgel    1,121
2 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Drivetrain engineer and gamer here. Can not confirm. The rules of ONI do not have to be replications of the rules of the universe for them to be very fun.

Thanks. I think some people just get deeply unsettled by rules that are not obvious to them or not as they expect the "true" reality to work. No good engineer will though. You just look at how things behave and what you want to do and then you figure out a way to get from A to B using them. And then you try alternatives and optimizations. And if a device does "magic" (compared to a more or less arbitrary reference system), so what? As long as it does that magic reliably and you can depend on it, there is no reason not to use it.

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Yunru    1,093
Just now, Lurve said:

Late game, I'd like to see a space radiator, that uses coolant piped in hot and piped out slightly cooler, as long as the machine has space exposure.

Why make it a machine? Just have it happen to any tile with direct sunlight. Heat up during the day, cool down at night.

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nakomaru    1,255
Just now, EnderCN said:

No, actually 100% correct.  If you have a pepper plant and it isn't being fed pO2 it isn't deleting any heat.  If you have a pipe full of pO2 being moved around it isn't deleting heat.  You put that pipe into the plant and suddenly you are deleting heat.  They work together.  Neither is doing the deleting on its own.

Just add up the amount of heat energy you have at each state.

e.g.

Pre tuner: 100MJ
Post tuner: 100MJ
pre input to mass deletion 100MJ
post input to mass deletion 80 MJ

Now you're doing basic science homework.

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Trego    72
Just now, nakomaru said:

Just add up the amount of heat energy you have at each state.

e.g.

Pre tuner: 100MJ
Post tuner: 100MJ
pre input to mass deletion 100MJ
post input to mass deletion 80 MJ

Now you're doing basic science homework.

Wrong.

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Gurgel    1,121
7 minutes ago, Trego said:

You are awfully critical of Klei for someone so easily offended yourself.  No where in his post did he say "you don't know what you are".  Let's all try to be a little nicer to each other here...which includes writing politely and also reading politely.  Try assuming the best of the person arguing back at you instead of the worst, until they prove otherwise.

He said. "Spoken like an artist, not an engineer." That is as bad as it gets. 

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Lurve    367
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Why make it a machine? Just have it happen to any tile with direct sunlight. Heat up during the day, cool down at night.

Because it's not a fast process, so maximizing surface area is important.  Look at a picture of the ISS.  Most of the solar panels you're seeing are actually radiators shedding heat.  They're the ones turned sideways away from the sun, so they keep working and don't heat up.

2 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

He said. "Spoken like an artist, not an engineer." That is as bad as it gets. 

Taking mortal offense at being compared to an artist is the most engineer thing you've said so far.

Edited by Lurve
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camelot    153
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I must have missed that when I used them for that purpose successfully time and again. Seriously, stop making nonsensical claims.

Uhm, how many worts you need to cool metal volcanoes? And in this new context that less and less thing could delete heat, it would be painfully slow or too limited to play without introducing new way of cooling

Edited by camelot

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Trego    72
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

He said. "Spoken like an artist, not an engineer." That is as bad as it gets. 

As an artist myself, I'm crying into my paints right now because of what you just said.

Edited by Trego
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Gurgel    1,121
4 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

And now the thread has gone down the drain. Rather than having a serious discussion and exchange of ideas, the thread seems to have moved to "I'm right and you are wrong". Posts no longer builds on top of the previous posts, meaning already stated facts are ignored if not convenient. An example is "the design goal is that you shouldn't produce heat", which is replied with "what about heat from geysers?". No reply, but we go back to "you shouldn't produce heat".

Another added aspect is name calling, like people not happy with the nerfing heat removal are "unwilling to adapt" and worse. There are also examples of "you didn't say this, but I think you mean and that's wrong. Now I'm telling you how wrong you are for saying what you didn't say".

The biggest loser in all of this is: Klei and all of us. Klei can't use user feedback if it's just one big playground fight "I'm right because I say so".

Not really. This is just people blowing off steam. Yes, I am doing so too. In essence, all this here is meaningless except for one aspect: Klei is going to read this and see what people care about. And then they are going to make a decision that tries to balance the different desires. Even if it is a bit rough now, it is important to state what you care about in this game. Yes, that includes the people that apparently have an entirely different expectation from me. What everybody here should do though is explain their point of view, not just state absolutes.

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Junksteel    624
Just now, Yunru said:

Are... are we seeing the same thread?

Because I see a whole list of viable options in the OP. (Even if the non-fixed output ones boil down to Wheezeworts, Ice Maker, AETN, and Steam Turbine.)

Well, Troxism made a very good job on that summary but I find most of the solutions not fun.

I'm not against the changes but when it is added to the recent nerfs.... what do we have? Troxism post.... Which is brilliant if we consider how fast and how well made it was posted. But those strategies are not for me.

I never used WS to cool anything before and I was just considering it for the first time. Now we have a blatant heat increaser in the same proportion of the before heat deleter. Their vision on the topic that would be fun to spam complex setups everywhere is something I don't share but it's clear many players do. Good for them!

It would be fair to have input = output. It would be fair to conserve the changes if we had the early/mid game tool kit to deal with heat (old ice maker + WW). But no. What are the news we do have on the board? Rime and world traits. It doesn't catch me, sorry.... and it doesn't have to. It's just sad and not appealing for some part of the audience which is well clear at this point.
 

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Yunru    1,093
3 minutes ago, Lurve said:

Because it's not a fast process, so maximizing surface area is important.  Look at a picture of the ISS.  Most of the solar panels you're seeing are actually radiators shedding heat.  They're the ones turned sideways away from the sun, so they keep working and don't heat up.

Sure, but it can be a fast process, if they code it to be.

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Gurgel    1,121
3 minutes ago, Lurve said:

Taking mortal offense at being compared to an artist is the most engineer thing you've said so far.

Actually I am not really taking offense. But that comparison is a good way to get punched when you make it to an engineer and since you know that, you obviously meant to insult. Not good.

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Yunru    1,093
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Actually I am not really taking offense. But that comparison is a good way to get punched when you make it to an engineer and since you know that, you obviously meant to insult. Not good.

But engineers are artists. They're just sensible ones :p

I present to you the following experiment of proof:

Take a work of engineering, stick it in a modern art gallery, write a novelle about it, see if anyone notices.

Edited by Yunru
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Gurgel    1,121
3 minutes ago, Trego said:

As an artist myself, I'm crying into my paints right now because of what you just said.

The thing is, this is not about putting down artists. But artists and engineers have very different goals: An artist wants to entertain, express themselves, tell a story, create beauty. An engineer wants things to work and solve technological problems reliably.

Both are fine. But an Engineer that really is an artist is as much a failure as an Artist that really is an engineer. Both missed the point and both are incompetent. 

7 minutes ago, camelot said:

Uhm, how many worts you need to cool metal volcanoes? And in this new context that less and less thing could delete heat, it would be painfully slow or too limited to play without introducing new way of cooling

So "cooling metal volcanoes" is as far as your understanding of "cooling liquids" goes? No other possible applications you can think of?

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Yunru    1,093
3 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Also, if we could stop telling each other who the “real” engineers are, that would be great!

They're a race of really dumb aliens that apparently are our ancestors, despite how little sense that makes genetically or otherwise, that like to toy with bioweapons and who's idea of secure containment is "don't go in there"?

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