Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

[Prince Mandor]

17 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

The problem is, it became the meta and trivialized temperature management, also making worts and AETNs pointless and rendering obsolete the idea that you should avoid producing heat.

By "avoid producing heat" you mean "avoid using water sieve"?

It alone produce more heat than all base together

[Gurgel]

2 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

This takes away the freedom of the player and ONI becomes more of a "do as you are told" type of game, which is precisely the type of game the typical ONI player wants to avoid.

Well, I am not sure this is the "typical" ONI player, we seem to have quite a few here that indeed want to be told what to do. All that talk about "proper" and "sensible" and "intended function" (which is a mindset that, as an engineer, makes me deeply sad in its restricted world-view) is an indicator of that. We certainly have a strong faction that wants to experiment, discover new uses and build their own designs. The current changes are pretty offensive to that faction, and I hope (and think) that Klei is not done here and we see only part of it.

[camelot]

2 hours ago, Nightinggale said:

The change is to the ElementConverter component, not the water sieve specifically, meaning the "heats up, but can't cool" apply to a bunch of buildings, including the carbon skimmer. Generally speaking, it applies to everything, which has input X, output Y kind of setups and isn't restricted to just buildings since it can also be used by plants and critters. However there are cases where they "heat up" to 0 K or use body temperature, meaning making a list of affected buildings will require reviewing of each case where ElementConverter is used and I'm not doing that.

What does catch my eye is the polymer press. Now the plastic will have the same temperature as the input oil. This means you have to really cool the output of your oil cooker or you will end up with melted plastic.

At this moment, skimmer still output PW at 40 degree. Petroleum, in other hand, have the same temperature of input oil in Oil refinery as you said. But you can always submerged the polymer presses in water and then replace that hot water using temp sensor, so not a big deal

23 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

The problem is, it became the meta and trivialized temperature management, also making worts and AETNs pointless and rendering obsolete the idea that you should avoid producing heat.

Player freedom doesn't come from being able to do "anything" - there's debug mode (and mods) for that, so you can already do that. It comes from being able to choose out of multitude of viable, sensible options. Being able to do something you don't want to do doesn't add much to that, and sieving was so strong, it made subtler methods pointless. Sometimes "removing freedom" is the best way to end up with more actual freedom than before - this is one of those cases.

If steam turbine and generator output temp stop being heat deleters, heat management will finally become a challenge.

Worts and AETNs were never an option to cool liquids in this game. So if you are going to delete/nerf 1 method, add/buff other methods.

[Trego]

5 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

 

The problem here is rather than rebalancing commonly used approaches, they nerf or remove solutions in order to push all of us to use whatever they had in mind. This takes away the freedom of the player and ONI becomes more of a "do as you are told" type of game, which is precisely the type of game the typical ONI player wants to avoid.

 

They removed the OP water sieving cooling, but added in the hilariously overpowered lumber/ethanol cycle.  You think this patch decreases freedom, I think it increases freedom, Klei breaks the tie since it's their game.  where's the problem with that?

[Coolthulhu]

4 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

What are those viable options besides steam turbine?

Read OP's post, he lists a bunch of good ones. Petroleum generator is a great one, especially if you cool it down.

4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

And who decides what "sensible" is?

All that massive emotional outburst over one word - one that you misunderstood at that.

No, it's not about realism or "rules" or any other bureaucratic strawman you came up with, it's about being able to do many things that work well, not one thing that works much better than all the others. "Sensible" here means "it's not inefficient to use it". And when you can just whisk away up to 60C of heat from water and produce comfy 40C at minimal cost, plenty of options do become inefficient.

7 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

The problem here is rather than rebalancing commonly used approaches, they nerf or remove solutions in order to push all of us to use whatever they had in mind. This takes away the freedom of the player and ONI becomes more of a "do as you are told" type of game, which is precisely the type of game the typical ONI player wants to avoid.

No, it's not "do as you are told", it's "oh, this one option broke the game, let's patch it out".

The nerfs are sometimes overblown, like with lettuce, but they are necessary.

[natanstarke]

3 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

By "avoid producing heat" you mean "avoid using water sieve"?

It alone produce more heat than all base together

Thats true the only safe way to not heat your base is make the bathroom loop and send the extra water into an storage. You can make your pool 40c eventually early game its dealable but not fun it leaves a feeling of sabotage.

[Prince Mandor]

Just now, goboking said:

• Wheezeworts (though less so now)
• Ice Makers
• AETNs
• Thermo Regulators
• Aquatuners
• Radiators

Any combination of the above will work fine for keeping a base cool.

Read it again, and let's remove devices, just moving heat around. Regulators, tuners and radiators do not fight heating.

And as we have lot less of ice biomes, we may not have AETN at all, or have it in very far away place.

And here it is, we have nerfed Wheez, and ice makers.

So, do you really think ice making is solution? Well, let's hope they do not need turbine...

[goboking]

Just now, Gurgel said:

We certainly have a strong faction that wants to experiment, discover new uses and build their own designs.

Does this change not do just that?  Does it not give us incentive to experiment with new builds to cool our bases?  It seems to me that much of the backlash is coming from rigidity, from an unwillingness to try new solutions before declaring all lost.  And that's coming from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight; I honestly don't care if fixed temperature outputs stay or go.

[Gurgel]

4 minutes ago, Trego said:

Klei decides, obviously.  

No, they do not. There is this little thing called "capitalism" in the way and Klei does actually need to appeal to its audience. Sure, some people want everything to be predefined, but what you are consistently (and insultingly) ignore is that not everybody is like you and that from the design of ONI so far Klei does very much not want to appeal only (or even specifically) to people that just do what Klei decides they may do. The very point of a simulation is to not do that.

[Trego]

Just now, goboking said:

Does this change not do just that?  Does it not give us incentive to experiment with new builds to cool our bases?  It seems to me that much of the backlash is coming from rigidity, from an unwillingness to try new solutions before declaring all lost.  And that's coming from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight; I honestly don't care if fixed temperature outputs stay or go.

I think it's coming from people who are assuming a certain attitude from those who disagree with them instead of listening to what they are actually saying.

[JonnyMonroe]

You forgot one major source of cooling: not generating heat in the first place. For most new players the first major source of heat is, ironically, the water seive as they will start seiving polluted water below 40c and getting it out at 40c, which is a substantial gain in thermal energy and is normally the cause of crop withering for newer players. Beyond that heat largely comes from industrialisation, which can be put off if you don't mind playing a slower pace and relying on natural resources for a bit longer (algae/rust for air is a major one). If you don't over industrialise too fast you won't need any major cooling methods for a fairly long time.

[nakomaru]

21 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

The problem is, it became the meta and trivialized temperature management, also making worts and AETNs pointless and rendering obsolete the idea that you should avoid producing heat.

The beauty of it was that it didn't actually do that. Worts and AETNs and Ice Makers all had their places in my bases, and rather than using a sieve which has material flow requirements and a limited temperature range, I used steam turbines or mass deletion. I never once built a sieve cooler because it wasn't needed, or appealing to me, or I'm not really sure why. But it appealed to many and it was used. The ice maker was a cool kit for your starting water. And worts were great for solar battery arrays. Yes it's fine. I can just use another steam turbine up there too. They are cool! But I preferred the variety of options we had a few weeks ago.

[Gurgel]

6 minutes ago, camelot said:

Worts and AETNs were never an option to cool liquids in this game. So if you are going to delete/nerf 1 method, add/buff other methods.

I must have missed that when I used them for that purpose successfully time and again. Seriously, stop making nonsensical claims.

[Trego]

3 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

No, they do not. There is this little thing called "capitalism" in the way and Klei does actually need to appeal to its audience. Sure, some people want everything to be predefined, but what you are consistently (and insultingly) ignore is that not everybody is like you and that from the design of ONI so far Klei does very much not want to appeal only (or even specifically) to people that just do what Klei decides they may do. The very point of a simulation is to not do that.

Klei can choose whether to appeal to its audience, although at some point they will either go bankrupt or prosper.  If you are determined to take offense, it is impossible to avoid making you feel insulted.  However, since I have never explicitly assumed that everyone is like me, saying that I am doing so is actually insulting.  Please stop.  

[camelot]

5 minutes ago, Trego said:

They removed the OP water sieving cooling, but added in the hilariously overpowered lumber/ethanol cycle.  You think this patch decreases freedom, I think it increases freedom, Klei breaks the tie since it's their game.  where's the problem with that?

You mean 75 degree C ethanol is OP at cooling?

[Trego]

6 minutes ago, camelot said:

You mean 75 degree C ethanol is OP at cooling?

No.  Well, no, that's not what I meant, but actually yes, you generate the ethanol at 75 C, heat it up even more, run it to the pet generator which you're keeping cool, generate 500 g/s of super cold polluted water, so yes, the overpowered cooling power of the lumber/ethanol cycle does include the generation of 75 C ethanol, that's true.  I was originally referring to the overpowered electrical generation of the cycle, which is similar to the water sieve's overpowered cooling power in making many other methods inefficient by comparison, and in being available very early in the tech tree.  Before ethanol, petroleum generators were often achieved at a much later cycle count.

[EnderCN]

6 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

You forgot one major source of cooling: not generating heat in the first place. For most new players the first major source of heat is, ironically, the water seive as they will start seiving polluted water below 40c and getting it out at 40c, which is a substantial gain in thermal energy and is normally the cause of crop withering for newer players. Beyond that heat largely comes from industrialisation, which can be put off if you don't mind playing a slower pace and relying on natural resources for a bit longer (algae/rust for air is a major one). If you don't over industrialise too fast you won't need any major cooling methods for a fairly long time.

Yeah I have to agree with this.  All this talk of driving off new players early game just has me confused.  You can quite easy go 200 cycles into the game without ever worrying about heat deletion.  Newer players aren't going to be bothered by this because they won't know how it used to be.  They just won't build things that produce a ton of heat as early as we are used to.

To me the game just isn't fun if you can't lose.  They need to make threats like heat, running out of water etc real threats that can end a game.  Heat was way too easy to deal with before.

[Lurve]

 

1 hour ago, chemie said:

I think for new players, heat will be the death of their game and their interest in ONI.

Actually, heat death was what interested me in the game.  There's lots of "survival" games where you slap down some food and after that it's a dollhouse, but I was drawn in by stories of bases murdered by thermodynamics.

 

4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Well, I am not sure this is the "typical" ONI player, we seem to have quite a few here that indeed want to be told what to do. All that talk about "proper" and "sensible" and "intended function" (which is a mindset that, as an engineer, makes me deeply sad in its restricted world-view) is an indicator of that.

Spoken like an artist, not an engineer.  What should have made you sad, as an engineer, is magical heat deletion and overall blatant disregard for a consistent model of physics.

6 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

No, it's not "do as you are told", it's "oh, this one option broke the game, let's patch it out".

The nerfs are sometimes overblown, like with lettuce, but they are necessary.

This.  Lettuce was OP, so they nerf it so it's UP, then they'll buff it again. 

Cooling was OP, so they nerfed wheezes, but it was still OP, so they (finally!) nerfed fixed temps.  That clearly had the intended effect, so now they can start buffing cooling options.  I like the ice maker, but it doesn't shift enough heat to justify the dupe labor involved in shlepping water to "hot" areas.  If it processed 200 Kg at a time, that'd be more like it.

[goboking]

5 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

let's remove devices, just moving heat around. Regulators, tuners and radiators do not fight heating.

Thermo regulators and aquatuners remove heat from one medium and dump it into their surroundings.  Radiators in their surroundings absorb that head.  Coolant in the radiators is then destroyed by either consumers like pincha peppers or the vacuum of space.  It works.  It may not be as simple as piping hot water through a sieve, but it works.

[Gurgel]

Just now, Lurve said:

Spoken like an artist, not an engineer.  What should have made you sad, as an engineer, is magical heat deletion and overall blatant disregard for a consistent model of physics.

Nope. Not at all. And seriously, stop insisting I do not know what I am, it is hugely offensive. I have absolutely no problem with deviations from physical reality in a simulation aimed at entertainment.

[OxCD]

I didn't succeed to find informations on how's the ice-maker is producing & deleting heat at the moment. There has been so many changes on it ! Is the calculation tool on Oni-DB still accurate ?

 

For example

 

If yes, it doesn't sounds too bad for me...

[nakomaru]

2 minutes ago, Lurve said:

What should have made you sad, as an engineer, is magical heat deletion and overall blatant disregard for a consistent model of physics.

Drivetrain engineer and gamer here. Can not confirm. The rules of ONI do not have to be replications of the rules of the universe for them to be very fun.

4 minutes ago, goboking said:

Coolant in the radiators is then destroyed by either consumers like pincha peppers or the vacuum of space.

In other words, you understand that heat movers do not destroy any heat. The matter destroyers do that.

[Trego]

3 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Nope. Not at all. And seriously, stop insisting I do not know what I am, it is hugely offensive. I have absolutely no problem with deviations from physical reality in a simulation aimed at entertainment.

You are awfully critical of Klei for someone so easily offended yourself.  No where in his post did he say "you don't know what you are".  Let's all try to be a little nicer to each other here...which includes writing politely and also reading politely.  Try assuming the best of the person arguing back at you instead of the worst, until they prove otherwise.

[nakomaru]

1 minute ago, OxCD said:

Is the calculation tool on Oni-DB still accurate ?

No. It's in the patch notes. The ice maker now destroys 20% of the heat rather than almost all of it.

[EnderCN]

Just now, nakomaru said:

 

In other words, you understand that heat movers do not destroy any heat. The matter destroyers do that.

It is a symbiotic relationship, both of them are deleting heat through combined action.  Neither one is destroying it on its own.