Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

[Nickerooni]

1 minute ago, goboking said:

I'm no HVAC specialist, but isn't that essentially what the thermo regulator is?  Sure, there's no liquid coolant system, but it's not hard to pipe coolant through the tiles the regulator sits on or through a radiator running behind it.

The more people talk about this, the more I like the idea of the air conditioners in the game (the regulators) being used to stuff heat into good heat sinks or dump it into space. Between that, the steam turbine and all the early game solutions, the game seems fine.

Heat is supposed to be the ultimate irritating bi-product.

[pacovf]

20 minutes ago, Nickerooni said:

The more people talk about this, the more I like the idea of the air conditioners in the game (the regulators) being used to stuff heat into good heat sinks or dump it into space. Between that, the steam turbine and all the early game solutions, the game seems fine.

Heat is supposed to be the ultimate irritating bi-product.

The main problem with regulators is that they are almost 4 times less efficient than aquatuners, and that’s if they are running hydrogen. So they are only good in the early game, or if power is not really an issue anyway.

[Dosephshih]

29 minutes ago, goboking said:

I'm no HVAC specialist, but isn't that essentially what the thermo regulator is?  Sure, there's no liquid coolant system, but it's not hard to pipe coolant through the tiles the regulator sits on or through a radiator running behind it.

I am not specialist too. And i think same as you before.

The thermo regulator can do the same purpose of course, but i think it is not simple and quick enough to set up. The will be more easy to use if i do not need to build the snake liquid pipe behind the regulator, just 1 input and 1 output, the water /coolant will heat up some degree (just like the metal refinery). 

OR, just change the regulator can be submersed under liquid. then it will be easier.

 

[camelot]

 

 

 

2

10 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Last month, Many People:  "Fixed-temperature outputs are killing the game!  Plz fix!"

Today, Many People: "I can't heat (or cool) my base anymore because my sieve (electrolyzer) isn't outputting hot (fixed temp) water (air) anymore!  Plz fix!"

Ah ****, here we go again

Last month: "We don't need another way of cooling stuff, we have enough"

Today "OMG, the new method is so cool, this is the new meta now"

What exactly the reasons that many people so oppose the idea of adding new cooling method into the game or rebalance stuff? Isn't that exactly what Klei is trying to do? In several new worlds, you don't even have any ice biomes (no ices, worts or AETNs)

And if Klei change the fixed temperature right before the official launch, they'll give the temperature problem enough time and attention

[BaloneyOs]

10 hours ago, gotnoface said:

Want to liken me to something? I'm like a kid whose toys had been taken away. But I bought this game and recommended it heavily to my friends. I like to play. But now when it's about to be launched they stiffle my creativity. I have very pointed feelings about this and I am making it known.

 

10 hours ago, goboking said:

You had a toy taken away, not all of them.  You've got plenty of other toys to play with.  To roll with the metaphor, you're asking your parents to buy you a toy to replace the one they took away while they're reminding you that you still have a closet full toys, and several of them are very similar in function to the one you had taken away.  You're not lacking for toys, you just find the ones you already own uninteresting.

 

Based on how @gotnoface is describing it sounds more like he had one super awesome transformer robot toy, but one day someone decided to break off a limb and remove some screws. While certainly someone else could find still find enjoyment in it, its original owner may no longer be able to.

[Logicsol]

3 hours ago, goboking said:

I'm no HVAC specialist, but isn't that essentially what the thermo regulator is?  Sure, there's no liquid coolant system, but it's not hard to pipe coolant through the tiles the regulator sits on or through a radiator running behind it.

What I'd love to see is the exact reverse of the thermo regulator. Something more akin to an active tempshift plate that you can pipe coolant through.

Something with a multi-tile effect. Make it use something peltier tech so it takes power and is reversible giving it trade offs against radiant piping.

 

Essentially something that makes it easier to shift heat around.

[credible0]

11 hours ago, Darkin Coaled said:

You mean if you were to grab a bunch of water and turn it to steam and load it on a rocket?

Or maybe use some almost boiling water to force some oil out of an oil well, dump millions of DTUs into that oil to get petroleum and then load that on a rocket?

Disclaimer: I;ve never actually gotten to the part where I have rockets but you're kinda missing a very important feature of them I believe

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[gotnoface]

@BaloneyOs More like army of various robot toys, each one different and unique. Now they are all broken except one. And you know what? I wouldn't care one bit that they are broken, if I had ways to make new unique ones.

Anyway I can't repair them. Nor I can build different new kind of robots, than the one that has survived. All I can do is duplicate one single toy (one that survived and is still powerful enough to propel my other toys, which are independent of heat mechanic) ad nausea.

And no, I won't accept argument that there are other available ways to do that. I know them all. I sunk thousands of hours into this game. I believe I can tell, when the available content has shrunk, when I know this game from the front to back, especially when this awesome creator community has fed me so many ideas and datamined mechanics.

There is a need for new heat toys, when compared to other mechanics, it is lackluster.

@watermelen671 re my examples soem posts back: my ideas are a question of balance, if I had to sacrifice throughput of whole metal volcano or 5 geyser or my soul to get some endothermic building working, so be it. I would gladly do it. As long as I had more toys to play with.

Anyway, enough is enough. I made my point. Whether someone sees it or not is not my problem. I have explained myself quite enough over past few days. I hope that some dev occasionaly visits these and sees that there are likely minded people and that I'm not the only one.

[Logicsol]

I take back a bit about the new water sieve behavior. I'm liking it more and more as I play with it. I misunderstood how they worked originally (I thought it averaged the input liquid temp with the clamp value, not the liquid and filtration input.

I've yet to get a colony to later game with the latest behavior, so I'll  duck out on this for now.

[Saturnus]

On 05/07/2019 at 4:41 PM, Lurve said:

Late game, I'd like to see a space radiator, that uses coolant piped in hot and piped out slightly cooler, as long as the machine has space exposure.

By what mechanic would that work? Space is not cold, or hot for that matter, it's a vacuum, and therefore an insulator.

[gotnoface]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

By what mechanic would that work? Space is not cold, or hot for that matter, it's a vacuum, and therefore an insulator.

I played Kerbal and was kind of a space nut. But in this case it'll be better to deffer to more educated explanation Staying Cool on the ISS.

Additionaly, it's one of the proposed solutions that was flying around here even before I stopped lurking and started ranting.

[Saturnus]

9 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

 But in this case it'll be better to deffer to more educated explanation

No. In this context it's better to stick to the actual explanation, and not something that only works with real life physics.

A vacuum in this game is a perfect insulator. There is no radiation mechanics in this game. Therefore a space cooler does not work in this game.

[gotnoface]

Well if you want to get technical.... it would function like constructable wheezewort, removing heat just like it instead of just moving it, which would cooldown teh contents to set temperature overtime.

It would be up to the player to provide suitable coolant, which won't burst the pipes and it would only work on the surface of asteroid and would require free column of space directly above it all the way up to the border of buildable area. The difficulty of maintaining this piece of equipment would come from getting rare materials to build it, provide suitable coolant and protect it from asteroids.

I'm sure I'm paraphrasing someone, cause this idea wasn't mine. Sadly, can't find the source.

[Logicsol]

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

No. In this context it's better to stick to the actual explanation, and not something that only works with real life physics.

A vacuum in this game is a perfect insulator. There is no radiation mechanics in this game. Therefore a space cooler does not work in this game.

Not via direct heat mechanics no, ONI lacks the ability to have a proper radiating cooler. That doesn't mean it can't work like a wheezewort and simply reduce the amount of energy in whatever medium it's hooked up to.

Essentially a less effective thermo-regulator that deletes instead of moves heat and requires vacuum. Give it some flavor text like "Space-age cooling technology beams heat directly into space."

It'd need a diminishing return built in, but it should be something that's useful while avoiding being overpowered.

[Lurve]

55 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

By what mechanic would that work? Space is not cold, or hot for that matter, it's a vacuum, and therefore an insulator.

 

41 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

No. In this context it's better to stick to the actual explanation, and not something that only works with real life physics.

A vacuum in this game is a perfect insulator. There is no radiation mechanics in this game. Therefore a space cooler does not work in this game.

... I get the feeling you're picking a fight.

29 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

Essentially a less effective thermo-regulator that deletes instead of moves heat and requires vacuum. Give it some flavor text like "Space-age cooling technology beams heat directly into space."

It'd need a diminishing return built in, but it should be something that's useful while avoiding being overpowered.

Not just vacuum; space access.  The way the telescope does.  It would be competing with that and solar panels for real estate up there, and with steam turbines for heat deletion, so I think the problem would be making it overpowered enough to be worth building.

[Saturnus]

32 minutes ago, Lurve said:

I get the feeling you're picking a fight.

Not at all. I just would like a reasonably plausible answer to the original question: "By what mechanics would that work?". Still haven't gotten one, and I'm not holding my breath for one either.

I suppose "by magic" like suggested above kind of like the pre-nerf wheezeworts would be an answer, although not in my opinion a reasonably plausible answer.

[DaveSatx]

i have a half formed untested idea to do a lot of the things that make heat (sieve, refinery etc) 'off to the side' well insulated  from the food and if necessary the dupes and just let the heat build. 

- i'll get to find out if currently, repairing alters the temp of buildings

and i'll have a reason to use better materials for buildings.

--

then i suppose i'll dump heat into hydrogen, nat gas and water - and send it off for conversion.

 

its "fun" to go step by step through every building to see how the interactions changed since klei isn't interested in telling us (a blanket X Kw of heat isn't useful a useful number to me- i cant easily translate that to degrees F or C)

[Logicsol]

8 minutes ago, Lurve said:

 

... I get the feeling you're picking a fight.

Not just vacuum; space access.  The way the telescope does.  It would be competing with that and solar panels for real estate up there, and with steam turbines for heat deletion, so I think the problem would be making it overpowered enough to be worth building.

Yeah, I meant space access, keeping it protected is part of the balance to it. It doesn't really need to be overpowered either, it's main advantage would be it's relative simplicity to construct. A steam turbine is pretty labor intensive to set up, especially when trying to maximize heat deletion. 

This, the difficulty would be reaching space and providing protection, but would provide a low level of sustainable heat deletion without mass loss.

Ideally this building could be linked with the other one I mentioned, the heatpump that functions like a reverse aquatuner. The two together would provide useful cooling at a cost with moderate setup difficulty.

9 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Not at all. I just would like a reasonably plausible answer to the original question: "By what mechanics would that work?". Still haven't gotten one, and I'm not holding my breath for one either.

I suppose "by magic" like suggested above kind of like the pre-nerf wheezeworts would be an answer, although not in my opinion a reasonably plausible answer.

It wouldn't be "magic" but a realworld mechanic the game isn't capable of modeling. Wheezeworts are magic because the energy they remove doesn't go anywhere, they reduce heat in a closed system without redistributing it, same as an AETN.

This would internally function off the same mechanics, but would not be "magic" because the heat is being sent somewhere. It's lack of direct physical modeling doesn't make it magic as long as it's modeled around a real system.

[Grimgaw]

1 minute ago, Logicsol said:

A steam turbine is pretty labor intensive to set up, especially when trying to maximize heat deletion. 

I wonder what you have in mind when you say labour intensive.

This isn't a complicated build in any way.

[Logicsol]

1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

I wonder what you have in mind when you say labour intensive.

This isn't a complicated build in any way.

That's built on top of a volcano. Not only is that not going to be able to run all the time, but I'm not really seeing how you're cooling the steam generator. 

Why don't you show a setup that can run 100% of the time?

[pacovf]

1 minute ago, Logicsol said:

That's built on top of a volcano. Not only is that not going to be able to run all the time, but I'm not really seeing how you're cooling the steam generator. 

Why don't you show a setup that can run 100% of the time?

I assume he is cooling the generator with the water that comes out of it. The water comes out at 95C, while the generator can run up to 100C. It’s kind of silly from a physics point of view, but it works in game, as long as the generator is not running close to max power.

[Grimgaw]

2 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

That's built on top of a volcano. Not only is that not going to be able to run all the time, but I'm not really seeing how you're cooling the steam generator. 

So those are your goalposts then? OK. Steam turbine cools itself with output water.

3 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

Why don't you show a setup that can run 100% of the time?

Put Aquatuner in instead of volcano and voila!

[Logicsol]

5 minutes ago, pacovf said:

I assume he is cooling the generator with the water that comes out of it. The water comes out at 95C, while the generator can run up to 100C. It’s kind of silly from a physics point of view, but it works in game, as long as the generator is not running close to max power.

How exactly? His water output is into the volcano chamber, it's not really interacting with the building. Is it using the stored water inside it to cool? That seems like it should require really low inputs to function, which means it's really anywhere close to it's heat deletion capabilities.

Which raises the questions:

 

How is he regulating his steam chamber temps? How is he dealing with gold buildup? How is he dealing with the insulation heating up? How about the waste gold? 

Obviously the answer is conveyor automation, but that means there is a ton of secondary elements to that system that aren't being shown here.

 

Setting up the turbine remains a complex and labor intensive task that needs to function within a fairly tight range.

[gotnoface]

I don't get how people can be so anal about heat removal, which they consider "magic". When the asteroid has "magic" heat sources that are infinte too.

The only reason I'm not ranting about how steam turbine works is because such energy abomination steam turbine is, is necessary for the current stae of game. Not even gonna comment the fact that the steam turbine shouldn't output liquid water, but just steam again. The magic runs steam turbine too guys.

[Grimgaw]

5 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

it's not really interacting with the building.

There are radiant pipes behind turbine using the 8C delta to cool it before dumping the water into volcano.

6 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

How is he dealing with gold buildup?

The sweeper is tied to temperature sensor. 

7 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

How is he dealing with the insulation heating up?

Top chamber never goes above 102C, Bottom never above 140C. Why would I be bothered about insulation heating up?

9 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

How about the waste gold? 

'Waste' gold comes out at 130C and since it has no SHC it cools down to air temp almost immediately.

@Logicsol All these questions make me think you never actually attempted to build steam turbine setup, yet you have oddly strong opinions about how hard it is to do.