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bobucles    335

That would be more broken than what we used to have.  There would be so much usable water on the map that you wouldn't even need vents until like cycle 1000.

Would it? Using the temperature of input sand drastically changes the difficulty of using it. Early game sand is usually a good cool temperature, so early game stays easy. Caustic sand starts at 40C, so no change on mid game sand. Renewable regolith is 250C+ so there's a HUGE increase in late game difficulty with late game sand.

It is pretty spaghetti to arbitrarily choose the highest input temperature for output though. If the devs want machines to generate heat, just MAKE them generate heat. Arbitrary black magic temperature mechanics are a mess. Use the kDTUs and stop having them get overwritten by so many things.

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situpc    45
2 minutes ago, EnderCN said:

Steam vent is just more convenient than rounding up all of the polluted water on the map to use it.  If you didn't even need to cool it off it would be what everyone uses for their default water with the steam vent being a super late game thing for players who actually use up all of the polluted water on the map.

You've always been able to do that, a 40C bathroom loop doesn't overheat your base. This change literally doesn't impact that at all if that's how you enjoy playing the game.

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BaloneyOs    249
1 minute ago, EnderCN said:

That would be more broken than what we used to have.  There would be so much usable water on the map that you wouldn't even need vents until like cycle 1000.

This is the problem though. They are trying so hard to base the difficulty off tech bottlenecks. At least before the fixed temp output had other purposes but now the only purpose of the minimum output temp is to arbitrarily punish you for using inputs below the minimum. It's like they're saying that the game would be too easy with temp in temp out below certain thresholds so they band-aided it with this "solution".

I know they're the company that made Don't Starve but do they really have to introduce these arbitrary frustration mechanics into this game as well?

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EnderCN    62
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, bobucles said:

 

 

It is pretty spaghetti to arbitrarily choose the highest input temperature for output though. If the devs want machines to generate heat, just MAKE them generate heat. Arbitrary black magic temperature mechanics are a mess. Use the kDTUs and stop having them get overwritten by so many things.

That would be completely fair.  Making non fresh water tend to be warmer fixes things too.  But they can't just completely remove the heating of cool/tepid water and leave everything else alone.  It would just make heat a complete non issue the entire game on most of the maps.

Edited by EnderCN

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situpc    45
6 minutes ago, EnderCN said:

I was one saying you can't just make temp in temp out and no you don't need a slush geyser.  I am exactly a person who was posting what you said people weren't asking for.  if temp in stayed the same as temp out on all devices heat would never be an issue on anything but the super hot planets.  A slime biome contains so much p02 within comfortable temp ranges that you could live off of each one for hundreds of cycles without ever needing to worry about heat.

You're saying something completely different from what I wrote, not sure why. Not a single person here said every machine should have input temp = output temp. You're completely making things up at this point to try justifying a change you personally agree with. 

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bobucles    335
1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

but consider this: now you'll have to cool that cool steam geyser to 70C or enjoy 95C+ oxygen... Lovely.

Electrolyzer outputs have less specific heat than the input water. The best option in any scenario is to keep the input temperature hot, and cool the oxygen afterwards. The hydrogen may not even need to be cooled, if it is pumped directly into a generator.

Arbor trees generate a large amount of wood mass, and currently the wood spawns in at a comfy temperature. Another balance change is to dramatically change the arbor tree's temperature range. If the tree needs a super hot climate for example, then the outputs become hot and require vastly increased effort to use.

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nivodeus    34

Hopefully they will change things again, as of now it seems they just keep nerfing the cooling system. The one with WW is fine , albeit shocking but still manageable. Water sieve though, i think it's a bit much, i want to say they could reduce the min temp to somewhere 25-30 degree but i dont think it would change much as well. 

I can understand Desalinator and Carbon skimmer have min output of 40 degree but sieve water is something that in my mind should not add that much heat, since the machine itself generate heat. Maybe something in the line of increasing the heat output of the machine and reducing the min temp, i dont know. It's disappointing but I'm sure they will do something about it before launch, it seems right now they are also figuring things out how to exactly deal with adding heat and reducing heat in game. 

I just feel like what they are doing with this update will limit the way people play, by 'forcing' them to use the necessary setup. I dont know, I'll see what happened in a few days.

Also, can anyone explain to me about the 'fetching chore' thing? So what would happened now? Sometimes they release update with such little information, it's hard to interprete the meaning. 

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TheIceD    37

>Large overhaul to conduit flow algorithms. It should run significantly faster and be more correct.

All fine except this new algo crashes. 

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bobucles    335
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, nivodeus said:

in my mind should not add that much heat, since the machine itself generate heat

Machine generated heat is absolutely trivial next to anchored temperature output. For example a water sieve heating up 20C water to 40C output @ 5kg/s generates 418 kDTUs. The 4 kDTUs of the machine itself is a rounding error by comparison.

If fixed temperatures go away, machine heat would need to be dramatically increased to compensate. There's nothing wrong with heat being a long term issue, but the players definitely need to be able to understand the mechanics involved and common sense is the fastest teacher.

Edited by bobucles

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1 hour ago, Darkin Coaled said:

Please tell me it means "to boil water just add regolith."

Please?

From my perspective I really don't see any reason why the sieve shouldn't be simply doing a standard heat exchange math based on medium temp/capacity/conductivity * 1kg versus input polluted water temp/capacity/conductivity * 5kg, resulting in slightly altered temperatures of output polluted dirt and clean water.

Why can't you allow builds where we keep sand in a freezer and use that to cool our water?

The elaborateness of that setup, just imagine...

And of course, to boil water just add regolith…

Holy game breaking fun. So this is what happens when your dupe accidentally grabs some 300C regolith.

image.thumb.png.28b3a137f18b78b57f6d459db735c1ef.png

Once you have breached the space biome, it will be near impossible to keep this from happening unless your sieve is full automated and supplied with cool sand/regolith.

 

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Nebbie    298
4 minutes ago, nivodeus said:

Hopefully they will change things again, as of now it seems they just keep nerfing the cooling system. The one with WW is fine , albeit shocking but still manageable. Water sieve though, i think it's a bit much, i want to say they could reduce the min temp to somewhere 25-30 degree but i dont think it would change much as well. 

I can understand Desalinator and Carbon skimmer have min output of 40 degree but sieve water is something that in my mind should not add that much heat, since the machine itself generate heat. Maybe something in the line of increasing the heat output of the machine and reducing the min temp, i dont know. It's disappointing but I'm sure they will do something about it before launch, it seems right now they are also figuring things out how to exactly deal with adding heat and reducing heat in game. 

I just feel like what they are doing with this update will limit the way people play, by 'forcing' them to use the necessary setup. I dont know, I'll see what happened in a few days.

Also, can anyone explain to me about the 'fetching chore' thing? So what would happened now? Sometimes they release update with such little information, it's hard to interprete the meaning. 

I feel it's inappropriate in general for machines to rely on minimum output temperatures that are well above what's required for the correct phase of matter to come out, just increase the heat output of the machine.

I believe the fetching thing was that some machine needed A, but dupes wanted to fetch B before A, but they couldn't fetch B, so they never fetched A.

2 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Holy game breaking fun. So this is what happens when your dupe accidentally grabs some 300C regolith.

image.thumb.png.28b3a137f18b78b57f6d459db735c1ef.png

Once you have breached the space biome, it will be near impossible to keep this from happening unless your sieve is full automated and supplied with cool sand/regolith.

 

I'm not too worried that there are some issues once you've breached gotten to space, but I do think they need to add vacuum heat radiation already and make space a cooling solution (radiate heat away with radiant pipes).

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bobucles    335
3 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Holy game breaking fun. So this is what happens when your dupe accidentally grabs some 300C regolith.

300C input makes 270C output? That also doesn't make sense because the sand has a very low specific heat next to the water. Regolith has a specific heat of 0.2 and the water is 4.2. 1kg of sand modifies 5kg of water, pushing the ratios even further. If the heat from 1kg of 300C regolith was added to 5kg of 0C water in a 100% one sided fashion, according to the kDTU system the water will only go up by a few degrees.

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Hedning    38
29 minutes ago, DarkMaster13 said:

Why not have the sieve increase the input temperature?  Just a flat number like +15 C, or weighted with the thermal capacity of the inputs.  Increasing the temperature is fine, but I feel that it should be a valid strategy to put cooling on either side of the sieve rather than only the clean side.  The only major thing this nerfs then is the infinite bathroom / carbon skimmer loop.  This at least avoids the major newbie trap of trying to farm with sieved water.

So what is perhaps the very first refinement building you build adds 15° to an essential resource.

A lot of research later you get the ability to move (not remove) that heat for 1200W.

Seems balanced.

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THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC PHYSICS SANDBOX. Why peoples just have to be such a #@$* about some temperatures. Devs, you can delete the sieve right now and just update the artwork of sushi and we re all happy

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nivodeus    34
7 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I feel it's inappropriate in general for machines to rely on minimum output temperatures that are well above what's required for the correct phase of matter to come out, just increase the heat output of the machine.

I believe the fetching thing was that some machine needed A, but dupes wanted to fetch B before A, but they couldn't fetch B, so they never fetched A.

I'm not too worried that there are some issues once you've breached gotten to space, but I do think they need to add vacuum heat radiation already and make space a cooling solution (radiate heat away with radiant pipes).

I agree. Adding heat output to the machine might help more, so it becomes like a mini aquatuner, that only specifically accept pWater. It still doesnt feel right, but let's see what they will do once they saw all the reactions from the update :D

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Maleus M    18
Posted (edited)

This last update is crashing my game, a map I started yesterday at Rime.  Also, I'm trying to send the crash report but it's not working. 

Edited by Maleus M
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Droopi    0
4 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

We've made some changes to the way the temperatures of building outputs are calculated. Buildings which were previously outputting at a fixed temperature (i.e. the Water Sieve at 40°C) now treat that configuration as a minimum output temperature. If input materials are hotter than this, the output temperature will be correspondingly raised.

 

This is great news for the last time!!!

Continue! The game is too easy for me and I've been losing interest lately, but this is what it takes!

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bobucles    335
5 minutes ago, MeepWantOmelett said:

THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC PHYSICS SANDBOX.

A fair point. At the same time, three four five different thermal calculation systems currently exist in ONI.

- Thermal units which operate on material qualities and quantities. (machine heat, metal refinery, world materials)

- Flat temperature delta based on input (worts)

- Static temperature outputs (Fertilizer maker, other machines)

- Temperature outputs based on machine temperature (gas generator, others)

- Static temperature output, unless the inputs are hot then it uses the hotter temperature too (water sieve, electrolyzer???)

How many thermal systems do we really need?

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Loscil2    80
3 hours ago, Alfons100 said:

Are Squeaky Pufts really that forgotten?

No, but they are that hated.

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Nebbie    298
6 minutes ago, MeepWantOmelett said:

THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC PHYSICS SANDBOX. Why peoples just have to be such a #@$* about some temperatures. Devs, you can delete the sieve right now and just update the artwork of sushi and we re all happy

The trouble is that it's a half-realistic physics game, and the half that's missing actually includes some things that would be helpful, like not easily underpressuring bases from dupes' weird breathing, not losing water overall from farming, and being able to toss heat out into space. Furthermore, the incorrectness of fixed-temp output was making really cheaty ways to remove heat that made the actual intended ways to deal with heat rather redundant.

The water sieve is a nice machine as well that just needs to not be so important to base heating and cooling.

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Loscil2    80

If anyone have played Invisible Inc, I remember some combos that are considered too OP but the devs explained that those tactics are valid cause they fun. What happened to that policy? The one where a game being "fun" triumphs over a game being masochistically "realist"?

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onodanger    0
14 minutes ago, Maleus M said:

This last update is crashing my game, a map I started yesterday at Rime.  Also, I'm trying to send the crash report but it's not working. 

+1

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Nebbie    298
3 minutes ago, Loscil2 said:

If anyone have played Invisible Inc, I remember some combos that are considered too OP but the devs explained that those tactics are valid cause they fun. What happened to that policy? The one where a game being "fun" triumphs over a game being masochistically "realist"?

I don't think the cooling loops that have existed in ONI are particularly fun, they require a lot of setup and just sort of obsoleted other ways of dealing with heat. It's a false dichotomy to pit realism against fun, the game will be less fun I think in the current update, but that's because we have unrealistic heat creation and are missing the most realistic way to deal with heat (radiate into space). The game would also be less masochistic with plants being more realistic (what kind of ridiculous plant needs solidified chlorine-bearing stones to make food, and where does all the water go in bristle blossoms?)

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18 minutes ago, bobucles said:

A fair point. At the same time, three four five different thermal calculation systems currently exist in ONI.

- Thermal units which operate on material qualities and quantities. (machine heat, metal refinery, world materials)

- Flat temperature delta based on input (worts)

- Static temperature outputs (Fertilizer maker, other machines)

- Temperature outputs based on machine temperature (gas generator, others)

- Static temperature output, unless the inputs are hot then it uses the hotter temperature too (water sieve, electrolyzer???)

How many thermal systems do we really need?

YES YES YES, dumping all thats aways,please. Less calculations less lag. I just want enough science to build a zoo

 

17 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

 

The water sieve is a nice machine as well that just needs to not be so important to base heating and cooling.

I know, just want to point out the important of updating sushi artwork.

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