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4 minutes ago, goboking said:

Is there any reason thermo regulators, aquatuners, and steam turbines can't be used to cool your base?

So don't expect to cool your base before late mid-game and it's easy mode of you get lucky with a cool slush or salt water geyser? People were already fishing for easy seeds. This is going to push more players in that direction.

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SamuraiJones    87

I personally like this change.

 

I'm an engineer, so I sometimes use thermodynamics to champion my cause... but at the end of the day heat seemed to be a malfunctioning game mechanic (I'm not complaining that the dupes inhale 100g/s while exhaling 2g/s, or don't change mass while eating/excreting). A low tech solution that was so much more powerful than even late game tools kinda breaks that whole system.

 

But yes... I agree people will probably freak out and search for easy seeds because there's a new way for the game to kill us, and it will certainly make teh game harder. Idk maybe there should be a "heating" difficulty that can be tweaked. I love the change though.

 

(although I am kinda confused why it'd heat stuff to a set temp. Pushing fluid through a filter would take power and create heat, but I think that'd best be expressed as a high DTU generation. Seems like it might make teh cold asteroid easier but... I think this closes most of the uses of this exploit)

Side note... I love that this change is announced, but I don't think it's working on the update I just pulled. Look at the pics later in this thread:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/457140/discussions/0/1639789306555191127/?ctp=3

 

 

 

Edited by SamuraiJones
grammer
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Looks here folks.
collect all heat from hottest place of your base on petrolium>Send this to petrolium to petrolium generator>Get free steam and hot co2 for slicker.

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Grimgaw    523

The focus on sieve is justified, but consider this: now you'll have to cool that cool steam geyser to 70C or enjoy 95C+ oxygen... Lovely.

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pacovf    637
47 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Same.

They also changed some of the pipe logic. Made seeds plant themselves again. That`s so many changes right before release. Now imagine if they didn`t do the preview.

I think the most surprising thing is that, if they knew they were going to change this, it would have made more sense to change it when the icemaker was introduced and the steam turbine was reworked. Kind of odd to wait until now. Maybe even internally they weren't quite sure about how to address this issue.

 

8 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

So don't expect to cool your base before late mid-game and it's easy mode of you get lucky with a cool slush or salt water geyser? People were already fishing for easy seeds. This is going to push more players in that direction.

I fully expect the slush geyser to be nerfed.

 

4 minutes ago, SamuraiJones said:

(noone complains that the dupes inhale 100g/s while exhaling 2g/s, or don't change mass while eating/excreting)

For what it's worth, it does bother me :p 

I understand the point was to not have your base full of CO2 in 2 days, but this solution has deep implications down the line. Notably, it all but guarantees that we *need* geysers to make a sustainable colony. It's a bit of a shame, but not game breaking.

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9 minutes ago, pacovf said:

I fully expect the slush geyser to be nerfed.

Nah, not a big deal. You still have ice bioms and stuff for cooling things in early game.

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natanstarke    190
1 hour ago, Gurgel said:

Hmm. You know, you are making cooling really difficult there with first the WW and Icemaker nerv and now this. I don't think that is a good idea, especially for new players. Basically what is left until mid-game is the ice-maker and is not really easy to use and not very effective in addition. I think you are seriously overdoing this cooling nerv.

I am sure I can cope (especially as I am doing a frozen-core Rime at the moment ;-), but I have been at this for a while now.

 

Yeap at max make it be dinamic equal a lot of ppl asked for AGES now " i disagree with all of them for lots of reasons" but make it just add heat " on top of what it already adds just by working and on top of the fact that liquids contribute a lot more for heating stuff, worts being hands down useless or close to it " because dupe time became EVEN MORE valuable than before", mealwood being the only viable food for a GIGANTIC time on most maps adding even more dupe time used AND the ice machine nerf + lettuce total annihilation " lets be honest one would need like 4 ranches for more for a very little lettuce farm and not counting a salt water geyser".

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Nightinggale    968
13 minutes ago, pacovf said:

I think the most surprising thing is that, if they knew they were going to change this, it would have made more sense to change it when the icemaker was introduced and the steam turbine was reworked. Kind of odd to wait until now. Maybe even internally they weren't quite sure about how to address this issue.

I can't help wondering if I started all this by proposing using weighted average for temperature calculations. I still think the idea is fine. I just didn't predict they would use fixed temperature to heat up stuff, but prevent cooling. That combo never crossed my mind. I also didn't actually think they would make the water sieve use input temperatures after rejecting requests for ages. I thought by now it was an intentional heatsink.

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For the record, I always agreed to have the water sieve a variable output. I even fully agree with a standard rise in temperature. However, a flatline base of 40°C and from there a variable output is shifting the balance too much to the other side.

Also, I always believed that even though this was needed, additional or improved ways of cooling were also needed to compensate. The icemaker does not cut it, and with wheezeworts also somewhat nerfed, this will make cooling much more difficult.

I think most experience players will be handly this, maybe even comfortably. However, do know new players will fail at this and maybe get extremely frustrated. Given the QoL updates were to make things easier for those players, I do feel this is nullifying to a degree the efforts made in QoL.

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12 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

The focus on sieve is justified, but consider this: now you'll have to cool that cool steam geyser to 70C or enjoy 95C+ oxygen... Lovely.

And the desalinator and the oil refinery. Since most salt water is 30C, the desalinator will be regularly adding heat unless you make sure to keep the machine cool and heat the salt water first.

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Darkin Coaled    176
22 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

The focus on sieve is justified, but consider this: now you'll have to cool that cool steam geyser to 70C or enjoy 95C+ oxygen... Lovely.

Is that for sure a thing now? The amount of flak electrolyzers get already will explode.

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BaloneyOs    249

I think the change is fine because by the game's standards heat deletion should probably be less free, though I do think the new output system is even less intuitive than before (now it's basically confirmed as artificial difficulty). For the sake of consistency though I suspect they'll either add more dedicated heat deletion, guarantee cold geysers, or let you choose map generation options.

Lettuce nerf basically reads: farm them early mid game and have a massive wild farm by late game. As long as CO2 storage is an option domesticated lettuce is still fine for a while.

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3 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

wheezeworts also somewhat nerfed

Not a big nerf, you still can plant it just in soil by dropping seed on it.

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crbd115    46

In all honestly i think you guys should just make the siv have the output temp equal the input temp and just have the machine generate heat itself. Maybe buff the wheeze wort a little to compensate for all this idk. 

 

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Nebbie    299

I am glad to see fixed temperature output being removed; I am not glad to see it become a magical heat addition that can easily screw us for trying to use even remotely cold inputs right after all of our easy earlygame methods of dealing with heat have been nerfed.

I think this change warrants a rebalancing of output temperatures including removing most entirely in favor of the machine adding fixed amounts of heat to inputs during processing.

I don't like this balance approach, nor the current status of wild plants being crazy once you can get them and domestic plants utterly screwing you on resources (seriously, nobody wants to farm squeaky pufts with a chlorine geyser just to get a slight morale improvement, and mealwood is IMO too much of a noobtrap, with algae terrariums nearly as bad).

Please, please give a balance pass so that the difficulty curve of a colony slowly escalates and it's a bit more intuitive which direction to go to improve a colony.

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situpc    45
1 hour ago, Cypher-7 said:

I am interested to hear more from you on this. My experience here has been lots of people screaming this change needed to be made.

Can you link where people requested the sieve to have a minimum output of 40C? The only thing players asked was for it to be dynamic, temp in = temp out. 

1 hour ago, EnderCN said:

I'm glad they went with this change instead of just making them not change heat at all.  It is way too easy to just use cool water to do everything and make the game too easy that way.   My guess is these devices worked this way to add heat and the removing heat was just a side benefit that they were hoping to get rid of at a later date.  

Sure if you're one of those that only plays seeds with slush geysers.

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EnderCN    62
6 minutes ago, situpc said:

Can you link where people requested the sieve to have a minimum output of 40C? The only thing players asked was for it to be dynamic, temp in = temp out. 

That would be more broken than what we used to have.  There would be so much usable water on the map that you wouldn't even need vents until like cycle 1000.

Edited by EnderCN

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situpc    45
2 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

It`s simple. The device needs liquid water at a certain temperature to work. So it heats it up if it`s colder. Would be better if the minimal was 20oC for the sieve but you can`t have everything.

It's simple. You completely made something up and touted it as the logic behind this change. What's actually simple is understanding a sieve doesn't change temperature at all and you're trying to make it more complicated just so you can feel smart.

2 minutes ago, EnderCN said:

That would be more broken than what we used to have.  There would be so much usable water on the map that you wouldn't even need vents until like cycle 1000.

I'm confused, that person said their experience was "lots of people screaming this change needed to be made". I'm not sure why you're quoting my response to that. 

 

And again, obviously if you only play with slush geysers you will always have enough water. A sieve with an output of even 400C wouldn't matter when you can go the entire game without using it.

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Nightinggale    968
3 minutes ago, EnderCN said:
11 minutes ago, situpc said:

Can you link where people requested the sieve to have a minimum output of 40C? The only thing players asked was for it to be dynamic, temp in = temp out. 

That would be more broken than what we used to have.  There would be way so much usable water on the map that you wouldn't even need vents until like cycle 1000.

How would converting 20 C polluted water to 20 C water change the need for steam vents? Even if the polluted water is heated to 40 C, it would still be colder than the steam vent output.

 

 

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tiggun    5

I'm glad Klei is changing fixed outputs. It doesn't make sense to have a water filter be a great cooler. That the output of a machine might have its temperature raised arbitrarily to a certain fixed output temperature doesn't make much sense at first glance but it doesn't seem that bad to me.

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EnderCN    62
8 minutes ago, situpc said:

 

I'm confused, that person said their experience was "lots of people screaming this change needed to be made". I'm not sure why you're quoting my response to that. 

 

And again, obviously if you only play with slush geysers you will always have enough water. A sieve with an output of even 400C wouldn't matter when you can go the entire game without using it.

I was one saying you can't just make temp in temp out and no you don't need a slush geyser.  I am exactly a person who was posting what you said people weren't asking for.  if temp in stayed the same as temp out on all devices heat would never be an issue on anything but the super hot planets.  A slime biome contains so much p02 within comfortable temp ranges that you could live off of each one for hundreds of cycles without ever needing to worry about heat.

Edited by EnderCN

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DarkMaster13    232

Why not have the sieve increase the input temperature?  Just a flat number like +15 C, or weighted with the thermal capacity of the inputs.  Increasing the temperature is fine, but I feel that it should be a valid strategy to put cooling on either side of the sieve rather than only the clean side.  The only major thing this nerfs then is the infinite bathroom / carbon skimmer loop.  This at least avoids the major newbie trap of trying to farm with sieved water.

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EnderCN    62
1 minute ago, Nightinggale said:

How would converting 20 C polluted water to 20 C water change the need for steam vents? Even if the polluted water is heated to 40 C, it would still be colder than the steam vent output.

 

 

Steam vent is just more convenient than rounding up all of the polluted water on the map to use it.  If you didn't even need to cool it off it would be what everyone uses for their default water with the steam vent being a super late game thing for players who actually use up all of the polluted water on the map.

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