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JoeW

Return of Them Status Update

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JoeW    27,555
43 minutes ago, minespatch said:

I'm gonna spitball but maybe the release will coincide with Warly?

We don't have a date yet, we need to figure out everything we want to ship. It probably won't be with Warly, but could be if the timing just happens to work out that way. 

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Dynamix_Roxx    329
1 hour ago, IronLobster said:

Hey man, i don't want to be mean, but you should be grateful about the new content they're giving us. This game has been since 2016 (correct me if i'm wrong) and to be honest, the new content (Events/others) they give us are quite nice IMO. They take some time to make their product good, and not mediocre. Moreover, if they're delaying the content it must be for a good reason. They're not slaves, and they, like us, have a life too, so don't be so entitled about it. They're doing their best to keep this community going and you're not helping a lot.

36 minutes ago, Hatano Eichero said:

The audacity and dare I say entitlement in these posts leave me in shock.

 

1 hour ago, reverentsatyr said:

uuuuhhh... insulting a developer probably won't help your argument.

 

1 hour ago, Hell-met said:

It's also usually what causes developers to stop interacting with their playerbase.

I've seen it first hand too many times.

 

The nicest thing I could ask was if they’re delusional. I asked long ago if consoles were getting the release at the same time and months later they’re still mentioning that. I’m here talking about the new content that is not coming. 

I’ve been waiting for “promised”, “estimated”, “motivational” release dates since January now with no release date in site. 

They’re doing their best to keep their game going. They do this by making money. I’m offering them insight to do this and I get credited as not helpful. I offered great insight on how to not disappoint your fans time and time again. I try to be as positive in my criticism as possible while consistently being disapppointed by Klei. The game has been out since 2016 and I’ve never seen any “new content”

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JoeW    27,555
2 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

 

 

The nicest thing I could ask was if they’re delusional. I asked long ago if consoles were getting the release at the same time and months later they’re still mentioning that. I’m here talking about the new content that is not coming. 

I’ve been waiting for “promised”, “estimated”, “motivational” release dates since January now with no release date in site. 

They’re doing their best to keep their game going. They do this by making money. I’m offering them insight to do this and I get credited as not helpful. I offered great insight on how to not disappoint your fans time and time again. I try to be as positive in my criticism as possible while consistently being disapppointed by Klei. The game has been out since 2016 and I’ve never seen any “new content”

Sorry. What content is it that you think you are missing? Maybe we have a miscommunication here, because something isn't lining up. 

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Rogueagent01    216
2 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

 

 

The nicest thing I could ask was if they’re delusional. I asked long ago if consoles were getting the release at the same time and months later they’re still mentioning that. I’m here talking about the new content that is not coming. 

I’ve been waiting for “promised”, “estimated”, “motivational” release dates since January now with no release date in site. 

They’re doing their best to keep their game going. They do this by making money. I’m offering them insight to do this and I get credited as not helpful. I offered great insight on how to not disappoint your fans time and time again. I try to be as positive in my criticism as possible while consistently being disapppointed by Klei. The game has been out since 2016 and I’ve never seen any “new content”

Other then the Forge what haven't we got on console?

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FreyaMaluk    5,046
19 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

 

 

The nicest thing I could ask was if they’re delusional. I asked long ago if consoles were getting the release at the same time and months later they’re still mentioning that. I’m here talking about the new content that is not coming. 

I’ve been waiting for “promised”, “estimated”, “motivational” release dates since January now with no release date in site. 

They’re doing their best to keep their game going. They do this by making money. I’m offering them insight to do this and I get credited as not helpful. I offered great insight on how to not disappoint your fans time and time again. I try to be as positive in my criticism as possible while consistently being disapppointed by Klei. The game has been out since 2016 and I’ve never seen any “new content”

You are not being positive at all. 

How is calling the other person "delusional" your best attempt at saying something nice? I think you know exactly what you are doing.

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Dynamix_Roxx    329
13 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Sorry. What content is it that you think you are missing? Maybe we have a miscommunication here, because something isn't lining up. 

I’m glad you’re replying to this thread. This is the kind of response the community needs. 

I was excited to return to the game after reading the Don’t Starve Together 2019 road map. After missing two release dates all I’ve experienced is disappointment. I understand you could not release an unfinished product in April nor in June. That is fine. I have no problem waiting for a finished product to be released.

Here is my issue: “Please do not announce any more unrealistic release dates. It is very disappointing.”  

 

How was mid-April even an estimate at this point?! 

2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

You are not being positive at all. 

How is calling the other person "delusional" your best attempt at saying something nice? I think you know exactly what you are doing.

I was trying to get a response from anyone at Klei! Public relations. I’m trying to get a positive conversation started to fix the things Klei is doing wrong. 

Have you applied yet to Klei for a public relations manager or social media manager? 

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FreyaMaluk    5,046
2 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

I was trying to get a response from anyone at Klei! Public relations. I’m trying to get a positive conversation started to fix the things Klei is doing wrong. 

Have you applied yet to Klei for a public relations manager or social media manager? 

Trying to get a response by being insulting isn't helpful. the irony isn't either.

And then you ask why people think your feedback isn't helpful. Try and stay on the factual. 

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Rogueagent01    216

To the devs i understand that @Dynamix_Roxx might be disappointed by the communication, but most, and i mean most of us are happy to have it. And again most are fully aware that they are not concrete dates, so please keep up the communication as it is highly appreciated. 

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JoeW    27,555
3 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

I’m glad you’re replying to this thread. This is the kind of response the community needs. 

I was excited to return to the game after reading the Don’t Starve Together 2019 road map. After missing two release dates all I’ve experienced is disappointment. I understand you could not release an unfinished product in April nor in June. That is fine. I have no problem waiting for a finished product to be released.

Here is my issue: “Please do not announce any more unrealistic release dates. It is very disappointing.”  

How was mid-April even an estimate at this point?! 

I think you're still missing what I am trying to say to you. 

First, you're making an argument that "The game has been out since 2016 and I’ve never seen any “new content”", which is entirely not the case. What you're actually arguing is that in the time you have been playing, YOU haven't seen much new content. This is true and what we are trying to resolve. This was the entire purpose of "Return of Them".

People want to know what we're working on, what we're doing and when they may be able to expect things. So we release roadmaps and information on where we are at regarding all that information. 

We announced in January that content would be coming up in mid-april. We increased the scope of what that content was, significantly and we released it to beta in May maybe I didn't originally get that across very well? 

Then when it hit and we saw people playing it we decided that the level of content for the game wasn't quite what we would feel should be released to the live game. 

Frankly, what you are suggesting means we would have to have A - not increased the scope of our work and B- Release a significantly smaller set of content to the main game. 

What I am trying to communicate to you, is that if we were to choose to do as you are suggesting, the result would be worse for everybody. You would get smaller, much less frequent updates, but they would be on time. 

The vast majority of players have been very positive about waiting for content, it's extremely unlikely that we will do as you are suggesting just so we can have more accurate estimated dates.  

 

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Dynamix_Roxx    329
1 minute ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Trying to get a response by being insulting isn't helpful. the irony isn't either.

And then you ask why people think your feedback isn't helpful. Try and stay on the factual. 

I asked if Joe was delusional because he replied to my frustration asking me about an issue I asked about two months ago. I was not trying to get a response by being insulting. I was trying to get a response by offering feedback. Try and stay on the factual.

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TheKingDedede    3,114

Way back when, we used to have long periods of time where the devs did not respond to the community. This was before the Forge, I believe. Many believed that the game was going to be abandoned when that simply wasn't the case. The folks at Klei wanted to make concrete plans before anything was officially announced.

It seems that JoeW and the others at Klei took note. In recent months, they've begun making more announcements and Bigfoot himself (The founder of Klei, Jamie Cheng) has been using his forum account more often in recent months, creating threads showing a roadmap of plans and future content, which brings to mind a greater sense of transparency between Klei and its playerbase. Back then, DST did not have those six panels and drawings showing you what was happening next or ads for new characters. In fact, it just used to look like this for a long time:

Spoiler

A8705CBD2ADA267468CC779EC3602BE457FC51A9 (1408Ã706)

I, for one, am a fan of the transparency. Even if plans fall through, they seem more willing to let us know that they may not be able to push out content on time and at least keep us updated. It's not the complete radio silence like they used to have. If increased transparency means that sometimes delays will occur, I'd rather stick with the updates about the delay than having nothing at all.

Now, I know it's frustrating to have to wait for stuff on consoles, but you have to keep in mind that Klei does not have the resources that larger game companies do. JoeW just mentioned earlier that special technology had to developed for getting stuff onto consoles better, and that they have to wait for the certification process of (I'm assuming here) Sony and Microsoft.

Also, game development is not easy. Sometimes, you have to work with what you're given and roll with the punches. In any industry, setbacks are inevitable.

For the folks at Klei, keep up the good work

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Dynamix_Roxx    329
4 minutes ago, JoeW said:

I think you're still missing what I am trying to say to you. 

First, you're making an argument that "The game has been out since 2016 and I’ve never seen any “new content”", which is entirely not the case. What you're actually arguing is that in the time you have been playing, YOU haven't seen much new content. This is true and what we are trying to resolve. This was the entire purpose of "Return of Them".

People want to know what we're working on, what we're doing and when they may be able to expect things. So we release roadmaps and information on where we are at regarding all that information. 

We announced in January that content would be coming up in mid-april. We increased the scope of what that content was, significantly and we released it to beta in May maybe I didn't originally get that across very well? 

Then when it hit and we saw people playing it we decided that the level of content for the game wasn't quite what we would feel should be released to the live game. 

Frankly, what you are suggesting means we would have to have A - not increased the scope of our work and B- Release a significantly smaller set of content to the main game. 

What I am trying to communicate to you, is that if we were to choose to do as you are suggesting, the result would be worse for everybody. You would get smaller, much less frequent updates, but they would be on time. 

The vast majority of players have been very positive about waiting for content, it's extremely unlikely that we will do as you are suggesting just so we can have more accurate estimated dates.  

 

You’re right. We’re on completely different pages. I have almost no issue with anything you mentioned.  I think everything you mentioned is actually great work! I have no problem waiting. I think it’s great you increased the scope size of the update as well. 

My issue was with your release dates. Why do you make these estimates?Just wait to get everything together. I don’t think anyone has a problem waiting for an actual date that is reliable. The problem when you announce a date and miss it is you disappoint your fan base. You could stop disappointing everyone by just not announcing the dates until further along the process. We all love the feedback still. Hearing what’s coming up, seeing what you guys are working on. That’s great work and we all like to see what you’re up to. Don’t stop that. Just don’t say it’s coming out in a few months if it’s not.  

Please be more realistic and reliable with future release dates. Thanks. 

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CarlZalph    3,387
2 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

My issue was with your release dates. Why do you make these estimates?Just wait to get everything together.

Please be more realistic and reliable with future release dates. Thanks. 

Unfortunately things being planned and what happens is really hard to approximate when it comes to game development cycles.

Things break, parts don't "feel" right and need to be reworked or scrapped, ideas get added in last minute..  It's a jumble.

 

It's safe to assume with any game patch release date that the time may explode at any time until the thing is released.  The timeframes are like weather forecasts- accurate the first day and then very unreliable for anything more.

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Dynamix_Roxx    329
1 minute ago, CarlZalph said:

Unfortunately things being planned and what happens is really hard to approximate when it comes to game development cycles.

Things break, parts don't "feel" right and need to be reworked or scrapped, ideas get added in last minute..  It's a jumble.

 

It's safe to assume with any game patch release date that the time may explode at any time until the thing is released.  The timeframes are like weather forecasts- accurate the first day and then very unreliable for anything more.

They should know this before announcing release dates.

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CarlZalph    3,387
Just now, Dynamix_Roxx said:

They should know this before announcing release dates.

Oh they most certainly do, but they're trying to please the camp of people who want the approximation to begin with.

It's a lose-lose situation.  Either they stay silent on it and people will be upset that they won't even guess, or they guess and people be upset when it's not a correct guess.

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JoeW    27,555

Sure, that's what I was trying to explain. 

When we give an estimate that is based on what we think at the time given what information we have. However, we don't EVER want to be limited in our creative freedom to provide the best experience we can provide. So for example, if we decide that something would be better if we added a little of this and changed a little of that, that's what we're going to do and missing a date isn't going to be a consideration. (Unless it's a hard date like an E3 demo or something like that)

You don't want a version of Klei that can't change dates. As I tried to explain above. This would mean much less content in a much longer timeframe. It's really as simple as that. 

I think maybe what you are missing is that Klei doesn't do any sort of mandated (or implied) crunch time. There may be situations where people choose to work over to get something done. But having a date that you cannot change while also getting it as soon as possible doesn't just mean crunch, it means mandated crunch, every time. 

 

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fimmatek    3,634
16 minutes ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

My issue was with your release dates. Why do you make these estimates?Just wait to get everything together.

I, for one, like having these estimated dates, so I know more or less at what time an update gets released, but keep in mind that these can still change. I'm way less disappointed this way than if I'd expect a guaranteed release at the said time. And it's also better than having no clue on when we can see the new content. As TheKingDede also mentioned, before the Forge announcement we didn't know if we'll get anything at all, or DST would remain as it was till it gets buried.

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Dynamix_Roxx    329
13 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Sure, that's what I was trying to explain. 

When we give an estimate that is based on what we think at the time given what information we have. However, we don't EVER want to be limited in our creative freedom to provide the best experience we can provide. So for example, if we decide that something would be better if we added a little of this and changed a little of that, that's what we're going to do and missing a date isn't going to be a consideration. (Unless it's a hard date like an E3 demo or something like that)

You don't want a version of Klei that can't change dates. As I tried to explain above. This would mean much less content in a much longer timeframe. It's really as simple as that. 

I think maybe what you are missing is that Klei doesn't do any sort of mandated crunch time. There may be situations where people choose to work over to get something done. But having a date that you cannot change while also getting it as soon as possible doesn't just mean crunch, it means mandated crunch, every time. 

 

I do really appreciate you replying to my concerns. Thank you.

I wouldn’t want a mandated crunch time. No thanks. 

I think I understand you more now as well. What you could do then would be to leave the release dates open like you did for mid-April. You could’ve used late June. You could’ve said expect to hear more information late June and then tease something. That would be cool. That lets the team have as long as they need. Even if there are setbacks you could say now to expect more information mid-July. Setting an actual date of June 20 was not a good idea. Trying to be realistic about them would help to avoid disappointment as well. 

 

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JoeW    27,555
1 minute ago, Dynamix_Roxx said:

I do really appreciate you replying to my concerns. Thank you.

I wouldn’t want a mandated crunch time. No thanks. 

I think I understand you more now as well. What you could do then would be to leave the release dates open like you did for mid-April. You could’ve used late June. You could’ve said expect to hear more information late June and then tease something. That would be cool. That lets the team have as long as they need. Even if there are setbacks you could say now to expect more information mid-July. Setting an actual date of June 20 was not a good idea. Trying to be realistic about them would help to avoid disappointment as well. 

Sure, sometimes we get excited about what we're working on and get a bit to ambitious with the content and that messes with dates. I won't argue with you there. Generally I try not to use actual dates and sometimes we get a bit to eager and do it anyway. 

It's not that the dates are bad, it's that we do not sacrifice content or quality for a date. If we prioritized a date above the quality and quantity of the content we would have to scale back in order to avoid potentially missing a date. Which means you will get less. We literally work at 100% all the way up to release of something. What you are asking requires that we only plan to get 75% so we don't end up with 120%.

I understand that perhaps you do not agree with that decision but I feel that it's important to point out that what you are asking for is less transparency and communication, not more. You are specifically requesting that we provide less information than we have so that you aren't disappointed. This extends to all information we post, not just dates. I believe most players disagree with you here, so I hope you understand that it's not likely going to change drastically. 

But I do think I could have provided more wording to be clear that these dates were approximations. I tend to think like much of the community has been with us a long time and is already aware that we are not strict with dates and can see how it may not always come across in our announcements. 

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Rogueagent01    216
57 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Sure, that's what I was trying I think maybe what you are missing is that Klei doesn't do any sort of mandated (or implied) crunch time. There may be situations where people choose to work over to get something done. But having a date that you cannot change while also getting it as soon as possible doesn't just mean crunch, it means mandated crunch, every time. 

 

Little off-topic,

All i pictured when i read that paragraph is all the former employees of Telltale Games who are now looking for jobs. That's what i enjoyed about that video use did a few years ago(somone just recently reposted it), seeing happy faces, still working but not pushing yourselves or the product to hard, it's one of the main reasons as to why i'm ok with waiting.

I don't mind a guesstimate using an exact date, reason being if use just say a month rather then a date the forums and communities flood the boards with "Is it today?", "Its almost halfway through the month, when is it coming?" type posts. This time (i believe) because the exact date was used those types of threads never really showed up, which was nice to see, the forums just went smoothly.

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cezarica    495

@Dynamix_Roxx give it a rest with the consoles already, you've been spoon fed the information and still insist with nonsense and express your opinion as if you speak for the entire console and PC communities.

Unlike PC market, the PlayStation and Xbox are closed markets, meaning they set whatever rules they see fit and if you don't agree with them then tough luck for you then, your game won't be on their console. This means that you, as a developer, will have to jump through loops of fire if they say it's mandatory. I'm sure if you do a Google search on why stuff takes ages to update on consoles will find better answers than this one for example.

Anyway, I for one really appreciate that we are no longer being left in the dark (see TheKingDedede post) and we are given a lot more information just to show us the community that the developers are still working on the game. Sure, I get up all hyped about things, but I don't take the release dates as mandatory cos I'm aware that there are many things that could go wrong and rather see them postpone it than release something just for the sake of releasing.

In my book Klei is the best developer no question about it. Kudos for the awesome job you guys did so far! Keep up the good work!

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JoeW    27,555
12 minutes ago, L. Ringmaster said:

@JoeW I'm struggling to find the forum rules. Am I allowed to be disrespectful to other users in this venue?

Uhm. The rules are here. No you are not allowed to be disrespectful to other people and, Hi - long time no see. =)

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L. Ringmaster    164

I just managed to re-locate that post right as you replied!

In that case @Dynamix_Roxx I respectfully disagree with your opinions on how the devs should communicate with the community.

@JoeW There's no way you remember me from years ago when I first contributed here, do you?!

I hardly even remember what I contributed! 

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