yasir

Reworks should be for the OP characters

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yasir    37

what i think that lei should do with the reworks is that they shouldn't rework weak characters but they should rework op characters

lets just look at wigfrid and wolfgang    while wigfrid has an acceptable downside wolfgang doesn't even have a downside which makes wolfgang better so instead of reworking wigfrid and making her stronger maybe they should consider getting wolfgang more balanced so that both characters are equally balanced.

either they should remove one of the positive things about a character or they should add a downside

btw i think that wolfgang wickerbottom wx78 should be nerved while woodie and wendy should be buffed

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Hell-met    932
Posted (edited)

I'm sure this is implied and it'll come in due time.

Edited by Hell-met
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Melody099    143
Posted (edited)

Every refresh means a new short. I'm not a fan of burning books but I would love to see more Wickerbottom lore or pieces of the others' stories. Let them refresh everything for knowledge! 

Edited by Melody099
Sent incomplete by mistake
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On 6/9/2019 at 7:43 PM, Sinister_Fang said:

And you're right. You don't become useless when you're old (or have less health). I mean, look at Maxwell. I'm not saying she needs to be Maxwell levels of frailness, but a small nerf to health seems fit with the character fine. It could just be something small like a loss of 25 to her max hp. It's not enough to make a major impact on how she's used, but it's enough to translate the character's traits into game mechanics.

But then it sounds like you pigeonhole any old character created into having a specific range of health due to their age. And that doesn't sound fun nor ideal. A characters stats should be representative of the character as a whole. Maxwell's health being so low is bull. He was just king of the Constant not too long ago. 

By your same logic, characters like Wendy and Webber should have low health because they're young children.

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Sinister_Fang    8,122
11 minutes ago, eternalLocket said:

A characters stats should be representative of the character as a whole.

How is less health for an older character not representative? As you get older, you're obviously not going to be as healthy as you were when you were younger.

20 minutes ago, eternalLocket said:

Maxwell's health being so low is bull. He was just king of the Constant not too long ago. 

I fail to see how his health has any relation to being a "king". It's not like having health issues and being a ruler are mutually exclusive. It's also hinted that he may have heart problems as he specifically mentions it when freezing or overheating. (And from a gameplay point of view, the lower health is his disadvantage. Without it he'd be an extremely strong character without drawbacks.)

27 minutes ago, eternalLocket said:

By your same logic, characters like Wendy and Webber should have low health because they're young children.

I mean, sure, why not? Again, it's not like it needs to be Maxwell levels of low health.

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2 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

How is less health for an older character not representative? As you get older, you're obviously not going to be as healthy as you were when you were younger.

I fail to see how his health has any relation to being a "king". It's not like having health issues and being a ruler are mutually exclusive. It's also hinted that he may have heart problems as he specifically mentions it when freezing or overheating. (And from a gameplay point of view, the lower health is his disadvantage. Without it he'd be an extremely strong character without drawbacks.)

I mean, sure, why not? Again, it's not like it needs to be Maxwell levels of low health.

You don't suddenly become "less healthy" just because you get older. It should be representative of not just their age, but stature and abilities. And I would imagine someone with the powers contained in the Codex Umbra would be able to, at the very least, heal whatever ailments they have. Or at least nullify any negative effects from it.

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Sinister_Fang    8,122
2 hours ago, eternalLocket said:

You don't suddenly become "less healthy" just because you get older.

Well, yeah, it's not a sudden "You're old so now you're weak", it's a slow and steady decline. I really shouldn't have to say it, but aging causes the body to deteriorate. Of course it's a little different for everyone, but in general, your physical ability starts to decline unless you remain very physically active (and I doubt a librarian would be actively working out). And even then, it's still going to decline.

2 hours ago, eternalLocket said:

And I would imagine someone with the powers contained in the Codex Umbra would be able to, at the very least, heal whatever ailments they have. Or at least nullify any negative effects from it.

In the William Carter puzzles, one of Maxwell's early discoveries was the life giving amulet. He obviously tried.

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Neutral_Steve    743

I thought Maxwell had low HP due of the throne (also the same reason I think why is he more blue-ish than the other characters)

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Cosheeta    184

Isn't there enough anecdotal evidence around the internet that supports the idea of buffing rather than nerfing characters makes for a way better experience

Even if it's just in perception

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ItsaGamer05    156
On 6/9/2019 at 9:21 AM, yasir said:

wolfgang doesn't even have a downside 

I can’t tell if you’re saying this in a way that implies Wolfgang’s downside has little effect to him that there practically is none or if you actually don't know his downside (increased sanity loss, increased hunger drain, wimpy mode)

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CaptainChaotica    4,156
Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 8:21 AM, yasir said:

wolfgang doesn't even have a downside

Ohoho, yeah?  Ever shrunk down to the next strength-notch lower while being chased by hounds?  Ever notice how Don't Starve gives you absolutely ZERO invincibility frames (which are a time-honoured video game tradition, even in early '80s arcade games sometimes) when you're frozen and unable to do anything, during said animation?

You haven't? Count yourself lucky.  For me, even when it's _not_ life or death, that animation itself IS the reason I don't play Wolfgang.  It's just so _annoying_.  Startles me right out of the experience every time.

On 6/9/2019 at 1:18 PM, yasir said:

i think that a lot of characters hp and sanity points shouldn't be that high (why does wormwood have that much sanity anyway he is a plant)

...what are you, kingdomist*?  Seriously I don't get why merely "being a plant" would imply less OR more sanity.  It's just...different.  Webber having low sanity I get, because he is a child who was traumatically _eaten_ by a spider at a young age, and is now a double-being.  They're literally a split personality.  Wormwood, however...?  Well, I guess you could make an argument for iNsAnItY!! by pointing out that "wormwood" is the old-fashioned name for the notable ingredient in absinthe...but even then, wouldn't that mean Wormwood makes OTHERS insane?  : P

On 6/9/2019 at 1:18 PM, yasir said:

(why is wolfgangs sanity 200 anyway he is the fighter character he should have less sanity) 

...I think you're getting sanity and intelligence a bit muddled here.  The game doesn't _have_ an intelligence mechanic.  (Although I've seen many brand-noobs THINK it does, in the beginnings of Let's Plays.  Brain = smarts is a reasonable guess, but no...)  Anyway Wolfgang is, if anything, dumb not crazy.  And, he might not even actually BE stupid--just clunky at speaking English.

23 hours ago, eternalLocket said:

But then it sounds like you pigeonhole any old character created into having a specific range of health due to their age. And that doesn't sound fun nor ideal. A characters stats should be representative of the character as a whole. Maxwell's health being so low is bull. He was just king of the Constant not too long ago.

Erk...I hate to say this, but while I agree with _most_ of what you're saying here, Maxwell being King of the Constant would NOT make him stronger.  Have you _seen_ what being on the Nightmare Throne for the gods know how long, does to a person?  Maxwell is _frail_ when you rescue him at the end of Adventure Mode.  (He then flash-ages into a pile of dust, but we'll ignore that for now.)  I think he never quite recovered, and maybe his lower HP as a playable character reflects that.  Or he's just Squishy because he's the Wizard.  Whichever.

On 6/9/2019 at 7:59 PM, Namelessgamer said:

I want wx and Wickerbottom to have a real downside, that will make them more interesting

...what, starting with fairly low stats that you can ONLY upgrade by eating _non-craftable_ rare supplies that everybody else wants so they can build things with them, isn't a downside?  Just saying.  I literally once banned someone from my server for constantly _threatening_ to eat the gear I needed for a fling-o-matic.  (Also, ohmygod, check out Stumpt's second season of DST.  "The Gear Wars" indeed.)  I'd also mention the short circuiting in the rain thing here, but I get the feeling that's way too NOOB! to be taken seriously on this forum.  Still a downside, though. 

Personally, I think that while no character should be TOTALLY OP, the way to balance them is to bring the blatantly _bad_, the UNfun, the ones that nobody currently wants to play, _up_ to the level of the medium-powerful, balanced ones.  Not take the good ones DOWN to the level of current Werebeaver and un-nerfed Willow.  (shudders).  

And, personal preference, I like the downsides that are just kind of in the background (but ARE real downsides) more than the ones you have to constantly...freaking...BABYSIT.  That's just not...fun.  That's another reason I choose or don't choose the characters I do.  I'm down for some challenge; I just don't want an annoying one.

...Notorious

*As in Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species.  I was gonna say "racist", but that's not enough, then "specist", but...plants are a completely different TOP level category from humans!  Hence, "Kingdomist".  : P

Edited by CaptainChaotica

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Dr. Safety    1,310
5 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

And, personal preference, I like the downsides that are just kind of in the background (but ARE real downsides) more than the ones you have to constantly...freaking...BABYSIT.  That's just not...fun.  That's another reason I choose or don't choose the characters I do.  I'm down for some challenge; I just don't want an annoying one.

I feel this. We all know the generic public server Wigfrid who should be out hunting to get food for the team but ends up either dying because they tend to only tank or hoarding the meat because "it's all I can eat, go get a berry or something"
That being said I actually really enjoy that downside. People just need to learn to play around it without nullifying your job as hunter.

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FreyaMaluk    4,684
On 6/9/2019 at 4:21 PM, yasir said:

what i think that lei should do with the reworks is that they shouldn't rework weak characters but they should rework op characters

lets just look at wigfrid and wolfgang    while wigfrid has an acceptable downside wolfgang doesn't even have a downside which makes wolfgang better so instead of reworking wigfrid and making her stronger maybe they should consider getting wolfgang more balanced so that both characters are equally balanced.

either they should remove one of the positive things about a character or they should add a downside

btw i think that wolfgang wickerbottom wx78 should be nerved while woodie and wendy should be buffed

Nerfing is not the purpose of the rework. This is repetitive to mention every time really. The devs already said they want to make every character to stand on their own and they also said before they don't actively look for "equally balanced characters" but providing a unique gameplay experience with each character. 

The discussion around "Wolfgang vs Wigfrid perfect balance" is also a thing that has been completely misunderstood. They have different roles and they don't have to have the same dmg output to be equally relevant. I mentioned this before but Wolfgang has pretty much the classic rpg role of a Barbarian while Wigfrid has the role of a tank. They are both fighters but with different focus. 

Looking at rework from a narrow lense of buff VS nerf is simply flawed. It's about letting every character really shine in their own field of expertise with suiting abilities. Nerfing strong characters is not gonna make the weaker characters strong... 

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Alexias    671
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Ohoho, yeah?  Ever shrunk down to the next strength-notch lower while being chased by hounds?  Ever notice how Don't Starve gives you absolutely ZERO invincibility frames (which are a time-honoured video game tradition, even in early '80s arcade games sometimes) when you're frozen and unable to do anything, during said animation?

This happen if you only didn’t get ready to the fight which any competent wolfgang players don’t do it, hunger is trivial in this game thanks to meatballs.

1 hour ago, CaptainChaotica said:

what, starting with fairly low stats that you can ONLY upgrade by eating _non-craftable_ rare supplies that everybody else wants so they can build things with them, isn't a downside?

It is temporary downside, it happen in early game which everything is hard that time because you don’t have the suitable gear at that moment (pun intended)

1 hour ago, CaptainChaotica said:

the way to balance them is to bring the blatantly _bad_, the UNfun, the ones that nobody currently wants to play, _up_ to the level of the medium-powerful, balanced ones.  Not take the good ones DOWN to the level of current Werebeaver and un-nerfed Willow.  (shudders).  

Directly nerfing their power isn’t good, giving them interesting downside to balance their power is more fun.

Edited by Namelessgamer
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GenomeSquirrel    391
5 hours ago, Cosheeta said:

Isn't there enough anecdotal evidence around the internet that supports the idea of buffing rather than nerfing characters makes for a way better experience

Even if it's just in perception

There’s no evidence of that, just a subjective debate between those who prefer going ham and those who prefer struggling for wins.

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Sinister_Fang    8,122
7 hours ago, Cosheeta said:

Isn't there enough anecdotal evidence around the internet that supports the idea of buffing rather than nerfing characters makes for a way better experience

Personally, I find an interesting downside to be better then a lot of useful perks. Part of the reason I enjoy Wormwood and Maxwell so much is because they're challenge characters with their health issues, but also have very useful perks to compensate.

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