JoeW

Wormwood Arrives June 6th!

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axxel    947

Who's saying that wet plants like to be soaked in water? Plants can drown, too. But I agree, Wormwood can be happy about rain. Trying to make a opposite to WX sounds nice but people will start to like a killer robot who gains sanity by destroying nature and murdering animals.:?

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WkingDisaster    185
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, blacknight7890 said:

Not all downsides can be mitigated like that, sometimes you have to deal with it and play around them rather than just trying to remove it form the equation. Things like wigfrid's meat diet, webber's pig/bunny aggro, and wheeler's smaller inventory (hamlet exclusive character) can't just be ignored, they are a constant issue that you need to deal with.

I think the game is better with these permanent restraints on characters, it makes them interesting to play, giving each character a unique playstyle, and makes multiplayer more interesting when you use other players to try to combat your own shortfalls, as it should be.

I think wormwoods inability to heal from food is a great idea, as it helps balance the ability to turn health into living logs, and it forces you to play him a lot safer than others, giving him a unique and challenging playstyle.

If that's not the playstyle you want, then don't play wormwood, simple as that.

or git gud

Rocks are fairly renewable, not sure where you're going with that. niter is a bit trickier, but enough moles may mitigate most mineral misuse.

If you are for a more challenging playing style, the worse the character the better. I have nothing to say about it. But if the rework is to buff up useless characters, what's the point to bring in a new weak character.

Wigfrid can't eat dragonpie, not exactly a big drawback, she heals while killing a monster, and there are tons of good meaty healing food. Webber can't befriend neutral mobs, but he has a spider amy. Wheeler is not a DST character first of all, also her dodge is momentarily invincible. Their pros are more than enough to cover their cons. There is nothing equal about the pros and cons of wormwoods' abilities.

If you are farming trees with pigs or bearger, you know how annoying those tree guards are, and you are basically out of chests to store those excessive constantly dropping living woods in no time, if that's the resources that inability to heal from food is try to limit, you may as well decrease the spawn rate of those tree guards.

You have to mine limited rocky resources to get nitre or in the later game from petrified trees (they are time consuming and drop little) , you also need nitre for gun powders, for maintaining beefalo.. and other uses such as for Winona's new stuff, you wouldn't want to waste it in making healing items.

If you try to be a good supporting character playing with your friends, they do all the fighting and you just plan crops, that's fine. But if you want to fight boss by yourself with no use of glitches, no mob helpers, you will soon find out how useless this character is when it can't heal from food. The downside is pretty obvious enough when you play in Hamlet, where all bosses are much weaker, 2000 hp or so. This weakness will be amplified when you are facing with bosses with up to 10000 hp or more. You will be like, "hey! boss, give me a second, I need to finish my healing animation applying a non food healing items" "let me heal first, then I will get back fighting with ya"

 

 

 

Edited by WkingDisaster

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Axelocke    2,001

@JoeW, a minor question:

How does Wormwood's font work? Are typed messages displayed above his head in his font? :wilson_curious:

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4 Da LOLs    1,988
3 hours ago, shyguy1824 said:

oh I see it now

:(

eh cheer up at least they aren't doomed into non cannon in till the small mention in a animation or stream or what have you

*eyes Warbucks sullenly*

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:37 PM, Canis said:

Stop giving Klei ideas, they are too nice for their own good and give more stuff to us for free.

Oh, I'm not ungrateful. Just curious. If that is not the case, then I will need to repurchase Wormwood in order to not miss out on a cool design. Basically, I am wondering if it will be cheaper for me to buy the deluxe Wormwood chest to get everything or buy the other two individually, not crying for a handout for owning Hamlet.

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4 Da LOLs    1,988
2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

20 harvests reduce those sanity

ok lets do some math

1 full grown tree - 15 sanity

+

1 stump removed - 5 sanity

2 cones gained when chopping a full grown tree

plant 2 cones gained form tree + 20 sainty

sanity - 20 + 20 = 0

2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

If you are for a more challenging playing style, the worse the character the better. I have nothing to say about it. But if the rework is to buff up useless characters, what's the point to bring in a new weak character.

Wigfrid can't eat dragonpie, not exactly a big drawback, she heals while killing a monster, and there are tons of good meaty healing food. Webber can't befriend neutral mobs, but he has a spider amy. Wheeler is not a DST character first of all, also her dodge is momentarily invincible. Their pros are more than enough to cover their cons. There is nothing equal about the pros and cons of wormwoods' abilities.

free sanity control for just using seeds and trees is a clear power play not to mention all his other buffs

also if you are saying he has no cohesion that is just flat out wrong you can't just go out hunting so you make massive amounts of food yourself and stay out of trouble there done

2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

You have to mine limited rocky resources to get nitre or in the later game from petrified trees (they are time consuming and drop little) , you also need nitre for gun powders, for maintaining beefalo.. and other uses such as for Winona's new stuff, you wouldn't want to waste it in making healing items.

you don't have to use the balm you can just use healing salves, honey poultice, sleeping, red amulet, spider glands, poop, blood sacs, and last but not least Wortox soul heals

 

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WkingDisaster    185
7 minutes ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

ok lets do some math

1 full grown tree - 15 sanity

+

1 stump removed - 5 sanity

2 cones gained when chopping a full grown tree

plant 2 cones gained form tree + 20 sainty

sanity - 20 + 20 = 0

free sanity control for just using seeds and trees is a clear power play not to mention all his other buffs

also if you are saying he has no cohesion that is just flat out wrong you can't just go out hunting so you make massive amounts of food yourself and stay out of trouble there done

you don't have to use the balm you can just use healing salves, honey poultice, sleeping, red amulet, spider glands, poop, blood sacs, and last but not least Wortox soul heals

 

When deerclop or bearger spawn, they come to you pushing down some trees on the way, by the time you meet them, you are insane. 

When you are minding your own business or exploring, Antilon sinkholes destroyed a few trees, you are insane.

When using pigs to cut trees, you are insane every a few trees down, all the work have to be stopped so you can fight nightmare monsters, that's not annoying at all. or you just have to plant seeds every a few trees down, so efficient.

All those don't matter that much, because sanity gain and loss is not his problem.

 

While you are fighting bee queen, you are running with low hp, you are inability to heal from food, so you have to use non-healing items whatever it is, oh shoot, there is no time for the healing animation to finish before interrupted,which means you can't heal! or when you are fighting boss who can regain their hp, oh shoot, using healing salves is so inefficient, Claus regains all his lost hp before wormwood heals his! So the only actual useful non food healing item is honey poultice.. still, you have to run far away to apply it without being interrupted, which means your fighting options are limited to boss who moves slow and cannot despawn when you are out of reach, and they don't regain their health. And more than often, you will have to tank waves of attacks before you get a break to apply non food healing items, but when you look at wormwood's health point, doubted it can last. 

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WkingDisaster    185
16 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

A character that does not exceed in combat is not necessarily a weak/useless character. Maxwell, Woodie and arguably even WX are not tailor-made for combat, but they're unique in their own way, and excel in ways others don't (Maxwell for gathering resources, Woodie for sanity control and wood-gathering, WX for a generally easier gameplay, and way faster explorations). Wormwood could very well be a base-dweller's first pick, for its affinity with crops and trap-making. Even so, given how much of a joke acquiring manure is, and how rot can be acquired as early as a day in, Wormwood's Compost Wrap is even more viable and easily achieved than other healing foods (Pie requires farming and bird-cage, eggs require bird-cage, fish-sticks require fishing, and all of them require a crockpot), the exception being the god-tier Trail Mix and bluecaps, the first of which is also crockpot-locked, while the latter is the only real loss this downside pertains.
 

First of all, WX is a godlike character, 400 hp full upgraded, 25% extra speed when charged, it's made for fighting, non brainer tanking.

Maxwell's sanity boost makes him the only one who can use nightmare armor and swords for extended long period of time, although he has low maximum health, you can replenish your health with food healing, oh yes, power of food.

Woodie, hasn't everyone already complained about how replaceable he is and asked for a re-work? What's the point to compare  a soon to be reworked character with a new coming character. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

Characters can be harder than the average and still be fun. DST's characters are not meant to be easy, they're meant to be unique. You don't play Wigfrid or Webber for a balanced and neutral experience, you play them because you like stabbing things and watched 300 a few too many times, respectively. You know a character is well-balanced when you play it once, and miss its mechanics when playing anyone else, and I believe Wormwood's specific crafting, seed-planting, blossom and general crazy sanity flexibility hit that mark pretty well.
 

Unique yes he is, it doesn't mean that he can't be improved. That's the purpose of rework right? Why you think other characters need a buff, because they were weak, undesirable, replaceable.

 

16 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

This is just a failed argument. Living Logs may be situationally abundant, but their crafting utility relies on Tier 2 Magic and Ancient Stations, both of which are considered "late-game", of course by the time you get to use them, you'll have a ton, and even then, it depends on luck and the way you farm. the point is that Wormwood brings more use to those, way earlier, and SPECIFIC TO HIM. Diminishing the spawn for all characters, because of a character-specific quirk is just bad game design. Not healing from food locks the player from the easiest and most used method of healing, and forces you to think strategically, consider alternative options and just learn more about the game in general, it's not about the loot exclusively.
 

I disagree.

For every 75 trees you chop down or destroyed by bearger or alike, there will probably be 2 tree guards spawned, that's 16 living logs. That's just tiny amount of woods compared to the building materials you constantly need for base and wood armor you need for battles. Even if you use nightmare swords as the only weapon you use, you still be packed with excessive amount of living trees in no time. Tree guards are not spawned in first 3 day of course, which supposes to make Wormwood popular in public server during first a few days, I guess. yeah~

 

16 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

>Gunpowder
Nitre is far from scarce, and most of its uses are situational. 
Beef domestication is not nitre-dependant, Gunpowder was only viable in DS, where you could actually kill anything with a full stack, and by the time Nitre even starts to get rare, you should have built G.E.M.erators already. Nitre is not rare and precious, It's that one resource you only think is scarce because its uses are so situational you never bother to stock up. The only consistent use for Nitre is making Endothermic Fires, but if you are to spend the summer underground, you may end up collecting Nitre, rather than spending it on surface. Wormwood provides a use for two of the resources you're most likely to associate with "stuff I don't really use, but clutters up my base", those being stingers and, guess what, Nitre.
 

While now that everyone becomes so "strong" and "mighty" against bosses, gun powder used to be a mean to an end. It might still be before new strategies against unknown new bosses coming. Still, without the help from bosses like bearger, imagine how long it gonna takes to mine 1.25 nitre from each boulder or pertrified tree. That's 30ish hp worth of effort. If that's your goal as a healing item, you need probably mine 20 boulder or petrified trees to prepare for 1 boss fight. 

And sure, Nitre is "not rare and precious", it just so damn time consuming to collect.

 

 

16 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

The closest you have to a compelling argument is the "10,000HP" thing, but ya butchered it with the "Let me heal, then I fight ya". You do know it's a lot easier to heal when you're not being punched, and most people don't heal while tanking and instead run to heal, right? It's not something new or crippling, it's just something actual good players already do, and that you may need to learn with Wormwood. If you're talking specifically about Raid Bosses, like Bee Queen and AFW, most people don't even attempt to solo these, their difficult attack patterns and unforgiving speed are not character-downsides. Everyone gets their asses whooped by these, faster animation or not... and even them have windows for healing, they're just smaller.

Wormwood is a fun, innovative and arguably balanced character. Just because he is not optimal for fighting doesn't mean he is useless or unable to kite... git gud 

So why you need healing item any way if it is not for fighting challenge bosses, and run to heal is doable with food items, but not so much with non-food item because it takes longer to apply. So you say I can't do it because I am not good enough, because "it's just something actual good players already do, and that you may need to learn with Wormwood." okay, congratulations you can do it, I guess I have to stick with food healing, which is less demanding.

And yes, no problem with wormwood at all, as long as I don't fight challenging bosses and focus on planting seeds at home. Good, safe and fun~ a new innovative way to play, very balanced character with no risk taken.

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4 Da LOLs    1,988
33 minutes ago, WkingDisaster said:

While you are fighting bee queen, you are running with low hp, you are inability to heal from food, so you have to use non-healing items whatever it is, oh shoot, there is no time for the healing animation to finish before interrupted,which means you can't heal! or when you are fighting boss who can regain their hp, oh shoot, using healing salves is so inefficient, Claus regains all his lost hp before wormwood heals his! So the only actual useful non food healing item is honey poultice.. still, you have to run far away to apply it without being interrupted, which means your fighting options are limited to boss who moves slow and cannot despawn when you are out of reach, and they don't regain their health. And more than often, you will have to tank waves of attacks before you get a break to apply non food healing items, but when you look at wormwood's health point, doubted it can last. 

1 poop has a faster animation to spam allowing for uninterrupted healing when spammed like a manual jelly bean effect for just some glow berries and werepigs is a really good deal

2 if the animations for other options are too slow maybe you should make a suggestion to shorten the time to heal animations

this would actually make them better and be more balanced

maybe people would actually use healing items other than food as Wormwood or not if you were to do that I would support it full way!

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WkingDisaster    185
4 minutes ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

1 poop has a faster animation to spam allowing for uninterrupted healing when spammed like a manual jelly bean effect for just some glow berries and werepigs is a really good deal

2 if the animations for other options are too slow maybe you should make a suggestion to shorten the time to heal animations

this would actually make them better and be more balanced

maybe people would actually use healing items other than food as Wormwood or not if you were to do that I would support it full way!

That could be a solution

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4 Da LOLs    1,988
33 minutes ago, WkingDisaster said:

That could be a solution

here you gave me an idea now lets roll with it!

 

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FeagleSnorf    279

This sounds pretty neat! 

Although I do kind of wish he had a connection with tree guards. I had something else to mention but I forgot, might get back to it later.

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Brago-sama    863
Posted (edited)

Personally I think wormwood from singleplayer was perfect and could have copy and pasted to DST almost 0 problems ( the free farms is a bit concerning but come on, we all know food was never a problem in DST)

I still love how creative you guys are with all this brainstorming you guys are having. Some of these ideas are pretty neat

Edited by Brago-sama
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Caochu    594
15 minutes ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

here you gave me an idea now lets roll with it!

 

If people don't like it, it could only be a Wormwood perk. Like the Winona's one about her enhanced crafting speed ;)

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WkingDisaster    185
Posted (edited)

I think inability to heal from food changed into can only heal from raw or cooked vegetables (not a recipe produced by crock pot) should be more appropriate, that gives a purpose for planting extra amount of seeds when playing alone. Some veggies consumed do give 20 hp, it can be useful for fighting. Compost wrap should be changed into using for other purposes.

Edited by WkingDisaster
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AdventZen    627

You took time to debate my arguments point-by-point, I applaud that.

1 hour ago, WkingDisaster said:

First of all, WX is a godlike character, 400 hp full upgraded, 25% extra speed when charged, it's made for fighting, non brainer tanking.

Maxwell's sanity boost makes him the only one who can use nightmare armor and swords for extended long period of time, although he has low maximum health, you can replenish your health with food healing, oh yes, power of food.

Woodie, hasn't everyone already complained about how replaceable he is and asked for a re-work? What's the point to compare  a soon to be reworked character with a new coming character. 

 

WX surely has the HP for a tank, and situationally the Speed for kiting, but without any innate damage absorption or attack multiplier, it will take just as much time as any other character, and have to heal just as much. It is easier, allows you to make more mistakes, but has no actual battle-made impact, compare to Wolfgang, that takes less time, and therefore less damage; Wigfrid, that absorbs, heals and deals the damage; or Winona, that has a passive damage output in the form of catapults, therefore taking less damage, and those "tanking" perks are just bigger numbers, not necessarily affecting battle performance. WX's only "battle-perk" are its gears, but those are just all around OP.

Maxwell's sanity gain is generally well-received, but it's far from a battle-perk. His massive gathering potential is where he shines most, and using him as a combat-oriented character, while commonly ill-advised and not very time-efficient, is possible, just like Wormwood. He isn't cut for fighting just because his overall sanity control is better.

About Woodie, fair enough, my argument was weak, and his current state is... meh. Still fun to play, however.
 

2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

Unique yes he is, it doesn't mean that he can't be improved. That's the purpose of rework right? Why you think other characters need a buff, because they were weak, undesirable, replaceable

Semantics is not the focus, but I'd like to point out that this is a "new" character launch, not a full-on rework. He's being ported, not remade.
He can surely be improved, though, and I'd love to see the Bramble Vest as a better Wood Armor, or his perks playing more heavily on the Regrowth nature, but, as he stands, he doesn't fit the "Weak, Undesirable, Replaceable" category, especially not the latter. I am fine with the current state of things, It's okay if we disagree on this one, really.
 

2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

I disagree.

For every 75 trees you chop down or destroyed by bearger or alike, there will probably be 2 tree guards spawned, that's 16 living logs. That's just tiny amount of woods compared to the building materials you constantly need for base and wood armor you need for battles. Even if you use nightmare swords as the only weapon you use, you still be packed with excessive amount of living trees in no time. Tree guards are not spawned in first 3 day of course, which supposes to make Wormwood popular in public server during first a few days, I guess. yeah~

Well, you kinda missed my main point by focusing only on the availability of Living Logs, but sure, while I don't personally believe 225~300 Wood is needed for anything less than a megabase, that is debatable and goes by preference. What really isn't is the fact that Wormwood gives a pretty good use for Living Logs, in the form of his traps. As most traps, they work far better in clusters, and the health penalty, alongside the food-healing downside, makes it so that he can't just spam-craft them. We get far easier and faster access to the logs and traps, once we learn how to properly combat his downside.
 

2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

While now that everyone becomes so "strong" and "mighty" against bosses, gun powder used to be a mean to an end. It might still be before new strategies against unknown new bosses coming. Still, without the help from bosses like bearger, imagine how long it gonna takes to mine 1.25 nitre from each boulder or pertrified tree. That's 30ish hp worth of effort. If that's your goal as a healing item, you need probably mine 20 boulder or petrified trees to prepare for 1 boss fight. 

And sure, Nitre is "not rare and precious", it just so damn time consuming to collect

So... getting 225-300 wood (75 trees) for living logs is perfectly fine, but 60 rocks, 32 flint and 25 Nitre in the process of healing is suddenly too time-consuming? You're not getting just the nitre, you're stocking up on materials you were probably gonna mine anyway while getting the healing ingredient. Unless you drew the short stick, and your world didn't spawn a Rocky Biome, Nitre isn't that time consuming.
(Also, practicing new bosses with godmode before trying it on an actual run is a better strat than risking it with gunpowder and... luck, I guess)
 

2 hours ago, WkingDisaster said:

So why you need healing item any way if it is not for fighting challenge bosses, and run to heal is doable with food items, but not so much with non-food item because it takes longer to apply. So you say I can't do it because I am not good enough, because "it's just something actual good players already do, and that you may need to learn with Wormwood." okay, congratulations you can do it, I guess I have to stick with food healing, which is less demanding.

And yes, no problem with wormwood at all, as long as I don't fight challenging bosses and focus on planting seeds at home. Good, safe and fun~ a new innovative way to play, very balanced character with no risk taken

The Wrap may not even take that long, but even if it does, it just makes the fight tighter. What's the point of healing items if it is not a challenge boss?
I'm sorry for the ad hominem, that was cheap and fueled by my inner EdgyRick. What I meant is that running to heal is already in place, and not a specific drawback to Wormwood's perk. 

Wormwood makes challenging bosses even more challenging, by not being suited to combat, and actually avoidant of it. There's nothing stopping you from solo-ing Bee Queen with him, It's just going to be fairly harder, and that doesn't make him necessarily a bad character, or make you wrong in disliking the playstyle. I just disagree with the "Weak in combat = Bad" notion. Looking forward to your response!

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WkingDisaster    185
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AdventZen said:

So... getting 225-300 wood (75 trees) for living logs is perfectly fine, but 60 rocks, 32 flint and 25 Nitre in the process of healing is suddenly too time-consuming? You're not getting just the nitre, you're stocking up on materials you were probably gonna mine anyway while getting the healing ingredient. Unless you drew the short stick, and your world didn't spawn a Rocky Biome, Nitre isn't that time consuming.
(Also, practicing new bosses with godmode before trying it on an actual run is a better strat than risking it with gunpowder and... luck, I guess)

I usually plan 90 trees a time, and it took one summer day time with 8-10 pig helpers to cut them all down, or two daylight time during winter. You can't hire a helper to mine nitre for you unless you are Maxwell. Even if you wait for the autumn and lure bearger to do the work by destroying petrified trees, it more than often gets killed by excessively spawned tree guards when he destroyed other trees in the process. The effort spent to farm 75 trees and 25 Nitre are NOT the same, not even close. you probably can get 2 stacks or less of Nitres from one big rocky biome, that's nothing.  If you have two domesticated beeflos, it can last for 200 days. If you use endothermic Fire, it will consume faster, well, you may never use morning star or gun powder or even booster shot, but FYI, the bath bomb from the new update also requires Nitre. Well, it isn't without a solution though, if you run a gigantic moleworm farm, you can farm a stack of nitre in less than half an hour. But, still, if I could heal using non food item during a battle, I might, only if the boss gives me enough time to apply them, I highly doubt that.

Use or not to use the food item to heal is your option, the rest of us would like to have both options open. Once it launches, there will probably be no rectification until years later.

Edited by WkingDisaster

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AdventZen    627
36 minutes ago, WkingDisaster said:

Use or not to use the food item to heal is your option, the rest of us would like to have both options open. Once it launches, there will probably be no rectification until years later

"The rest of us" would imply more than one person being vocal about an issue, you seem to be the only one bothered by his lack of food-healing. Entertain the thought, however, that he does attain the same benefits from food as any other character... what could make him an interesting character, and not just a walking living log/farmplots machine with no considerable downsides? 

For the record, I agree on shorter animation times for the Wrap, at least as short as the small-foods and veggies.

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SeriousSteel    48

 Thorns being a popular means of defense used by plants, I think it would be fitting for Wormwood if Bramble Husk was better than what it currently is right now, since WormWood seems like a pacifist, he would rather avoid combat but if someone wants to kill or eat him, his attackers would regret it

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FeagleSnorf    279

Can we all remember that you don’t have to play WormWood?

And also that you shouldn’t be mad at someone just for playing him? (Unless their griefing)

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Nino123    154

Just to be sure... I own Hamlt, so Wormwood will be unlocked freely for me but, if i want his extra skins (Oasis, roseate ...) i need to weave them OR i need to pay for the Wormwood chest?

Can't I just buy only the skins without a duplicate of Wormwood?

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