DyingCrow

Trying to understand how slimelung works

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DyingCrow    89
Posted (edited)

In this little hovel of mine here, i have the indoors, living space sealed from the outside, and the outside, where absolutely no one goes without a suit. I have dupe immunity set to normal.

Indoors is absolutely immaculate as for germs (upon proper use of the gas overlay, i later found out that this was not the case. There were many packets or infected polluted o2 floating around, released by sick dupes) save for the unavoidable germs on suits when they come back in, but a few will have contact with slime for the mushrooms for very short periods of time. I've been constantly having dupes infected with slimelung. Even those who are locked indoors, like the rookies, get infected. Even those who never, ever deliver slime to the shrooms get infected. Heck, some of them never handle anything that could have germs except the suits and still get infected.

I'm trying to understand how the current mechanics work, or if they're out of control.

- Will dupes get infected if they come in contact with something random that only has < 1000 germs?

- Will dupes 100% get infected if they handle slime without a suit?

- Will dupes get infected just because they handle suits that could have germ left overs?

- Will dupes get infected by topping off the hatch feeders with stuff that has not been through an ore scrubber?

- Will dupes get infected just by existing? I've seen dupes getting infected while getting off bed. Makes me think of some obscure incubation period, but i'd never think there is such thing. (this is what methinks...)

With all that, i'm trying to figure out how to avoid all this without having to set up a black project-esque decontamination apparatus. I'm, certainly not willing to constantly churn out med packs or vials, it'd be just crazy. Or just completely ignore it.

Or did Klei overdone the new disease system a bit too much on the hardcore side?

 

Edited by DyingCrow

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metallichydra    1,404

duplicants only get sick after waking up, so if you get a notification about a dupe getting infected with slimelung with slimelung on cycle 92, they actually got the disease on cycle 91, but it wont have an effect before they wake up.

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DyingCrow    89
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, metallichydra said:

duplicants only get sick after waking up, so if you get a notification about a dupe getting infected with slimelung with slimelung on cycle 92, they actually got the disease on cycle 91, but it wont have an effect before they wake up.

So this will just make it very hard to pinpoint exactly where they got it from...?

image.png.a0a028a1416a97af8aeda98743c43722.png

Ugh

Edited by DyingCrow

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metallichydra    1,404
Just now, DyingCrow said:

So this will just make it very hard to pinpoint exactly where they got it from...?

when you get the notification, it will say what the dupe got the disease from - for example if they got it by eating a germ covered food, it will state that: "dupe" contracted food poisining from eating a germ-covered mushbar.

unfortunately, as far as i know, slimelung can only be contracted from breathing in oxygen or polluted oxygen with slimelung.

and slimelung can spread REALLY fast i air, but it dies quickly after - so if you open a door into the slime biome, it may allow a lot of slimelung to enter your base - and after a short time it will die.

how i think your dupes get sick:

Spoiler

 

*opens door into slime biome

a dupe gets "sick", and next morning you'll probably get a notification about a dupe getting sick

shortly after you close the door, all the slimelung will probably die

next morning

*sick dupe

- opens germ-overlay

"but there's no slimelung in my base!"

 

but i might be wrong

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DyingCrow    89
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, metallichydra said:

 slimelung can only be contracted from breathing in oxygen or polluted oxygen with slimelung.

According to the description, it's only "germ filled polluted oxygen". This is why i'm asking around here if there is something hidden in the game code which triggers slimelung infection in any other way, such as traces of slimelung in the exosuit airlock oxygen atmosphere, or contact with solids, which will most certainly happen no matter what. Mere observation doesn't seem to be the best way to determine the how. As far as i can remember, before the recent-ish disease revamp, once we had exosuits, the chances of having dupes infected with slimelung was pretty much 0. So something else changed. Maybe someone put a . instead of a , somewhere in the code :p

If the answer is no, then... well, the picture above still applies.

"Klei, you've done it again!" But we still love your game.

:D

 

Edited by DyingCrow

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Lacost    186

This system is so weird and hard to understand. I would much like prefer a new disease system that clearly tells you what is happening and when it's going to happen instead of this roll the dice + sleeping delay shenanigans.

 

You know, like a new stat that resembles the Dupes immunity. It could start out at 100% and when a Dupe gets infected it would decrease to 0% before the disease is contracted. This would readily inform you that a Dupe might need medical assistance and will instantly pinpoint you to the location a Dupe got infected instead of staring onto a bed and wondering how this could have happened. You could also make the difficulty setting for immune system and germ resistant/biohazardous more meaningful.

 

I'm here fully sarcastic because I know very well that the old system was just like that.

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bmilohill    140

So a few different things going on (and please note devs have said that current version is not final version, they still want to adjust the balance a little more so I'm going to try to avoid using numbers that are subject to change):

1) It doesn't really matter if its 1 germ or 1 million, just that the dupe is exposed. 
2) Food poisoning must be consumed (did you wash your hands?), slimelung must be inhaled 
3) Each night, the game sees how many dupes were exposed to a germ the night before, then makes a calculation. If enough dupes were exposed, then at least 1 will be randomly selected when they wake to be infected. The exact number of dupes that have to be exposed before you get an infection is based on both the dupe's immunity (traits and boosters affect this) as well as the contagious level of the disease. For example, in the current patch, if 3 dupes are exposed in one day to slimelung all of which have normal health and haven't taken boosters then tomorrow one of them will be sick.
4) A dupe sick with slimelung sneezes. Which can continue the spread inside your base. This is how your inside only dupes are getting sick. You're going to want to make a bunch of medicine packs and try to kill it off entirely. 

5) The broken counter-play in the current build: Buddy bud plants. Floral scents and slimelung don't exist in the same tile. Hanging plants by your airlocks and in the medbay since they might be sneezing there and you're good. You just have to not take any allergic dupes, since current patch allergies are worse than slimelung. 

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DyingCrow    89
2 hours ago, bmilohill said:

So a few different things going on (and please note devs have said that current version is not final version, they still want to adjust the balance a little more so I'm going to try to avoid using numbers that are subject to change):

1) It doesn't really matter if its 1 germ or 1 million, just that the dupe is exposed. 
2) Food poisoning must be consumed (did you wash your hands?), slimelung must be inhaled 
3) Each night, the game sees how many dupes were exposed to a germ the night before, then makes a calculation. If enough dupes were exposed, then at least 1 will be randomly selected when they wake to be infected. The exact number of dupes that have to be exposed before you get an infection is based on both the dupe's immunity (traits and boosters affect this) as well as the contagious level of the disease. For example, in the current patch, if 3 dupes are exposed in one day to slimelung all of which have normal health and haven't taken boosters then tomorrow one of them will be sick.
4) A dupe sick with slimelung sneezes. Which can continue the spread inside your base. This is how your inside only dupes are getting sick. You're going to want to make a bunch of medicine packs and try to kill it off entirely. 

5) The broken counter-play in the current build: Buddy bud plants. Floral scents and slimelung don't exist in the same tile. Hanging plants by your airlocks and in the medbay since they might be sneezing there and you're good. You just have to not take any allergic dupes, since current patch allergies are worse than slimelung. 

Good explanation, thanks.

The exosuit docks are the point of infection, then. It's the only place, indoors, with traces of germs in the air.  Think i can see what Klei are trying to achieve here, promoting the use of germ sensors, vitamin chews and immuno boosters, but the system does need some work. I don't think most of us will put the effort in churning out those 2, plus medicine packs. I mean, churning out vitamins, having dupes infected, curing them with med packs just for them to possibly become infected again the next couple cycles doesn't seem very reasonable. Not even mentioning medicine vials, the sun nymph egg requirements for it is like something out of the twilight zone. Who the heck thought of that stuff?

Guess i'll try some stuff, now that i have a better understand of the current mechanics.

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bmilohill    140

Ironically, the sun nymph egg is the one part I think they did perfect lol. 
They wanted zombie spores to be something hard that would catch you unawares late game. Like deerclops in Don't Starve. Let players die and restart 50 times and finally feel like they have a handle on the game and then throw them a curve ball. Sun nymphs being something that most players won't have ever ranched makes them a perfect prereq. 

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mathmanican    1,889

Are you using deoxideres? One tiny chunk of algae with slime lung in it can start a never ending slimelung spiral. Dupes will not contract slimelung from touching an exosuit or eating slimelung food. But 1 germ in clean oxygen from algae will do it....

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Gracefulmuse    106
10 hours ago, bmilohill said:


3) Each night, the game sees how many dupes were exposed to a germ the night before, then makes a calculation. If enough dupes were exposed, then at least 1 will be randomly selected when they wake to be infected.

Are you sure about this? I've never had a dupe get sick that wasn't exposed. When one is exposed it gets that in it's stats screen and it even gives a percentage chance of infection which goes up based on the number of germs exposed to. 

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bmilohill    140
8 hours ago, Gracefulmuse said:

I've never had a dupe get sick that wasn't exposed.

I should clarify. If enough dupes were exposed, then at least 1 of those 3 that were exposed will be randomly selected, when they wake, to be infected. 

You are correct, they must be exposed first. I worded it that way because there are a few other things this also implies:
* If enough dupes are exposed, you get sick, period. The random roll is on who gets sick, not whether or not there will be an illness. 
* You can still prevent this pre-infection. If the current patch says 3 normal dupes need to be exposed for the check to be made on slimelung, and only 3 are exposed during the day, then 1 dupe taking a booster right before bed will up the bar to 3.5 dupes. Meaning if only those 3 were exposed, no one gets sick. If 4 were exposed, then 1 of those 4 will be. 

 

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DyingCrow    89
4 minutes ago, bmilohill said:

I should clarify. If enough dupes were exposed, then at least 1 of those 3 that were exposed will be randomly selected, when they wake, to be infected. 

You are correct, they must be exposed first. I worded it that way because there are a few other things this also implies:
* If enough dupes are exposed, you get sick, period. The random roll is on who gets sick, not whether or not there will be an illness. 
* You can still prevent this pre-infection. If the current patch says 3 normal dupes need to be exposed for the check to be made on slimelung, and only 3 are exposed during the day, then 1 dupe taking a booster right before bed will up the bar to 3.5 dupes. Meaning if only those 3 were exposed, no one gets sick. If 4 were exposed, then 1 of those 4 will be. 

 

I am guessing that being "exposed" can be verified as if they currently have surface germs on them?

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bmilohill    140

Not 100% positive cause im not at home atm but if I recall in the dupe status menu it will state 'exposed to slimelung.'

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DyingCrow    89
6 minutes ago, bmilohill said:

Not 100% positive cause im not at home atm but if I recall in the dupe status menu it will state 'exposed to slimelung.'

Correct.

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Gracefulmuse    106
1 hour ago, bmilohill said:

I should clarify. If enough dupes were exposed, then at least 1 of those 3 that were exposed will be randomly selected, when they wake, to be infected. 

You are correct, they must be exposed first. I worded it that way because there are a few other things this also implies:
* If enough dupes are exposed, you get sick, period. The random roll is on who gets sick, not whether or not there will be an illness. 
* You can still prevent this pre-infection. If the current patch says 3 normal dupes need to be exposed for the check to be made on slimelung, and only 3 are exposed during the day, then 1 dupe taking a booster right before bed will up the bar to 3.5 dupes. Meaning if only those 3 were exposed, no one gets sick. If 4 were exposed, then 1 of those 4 will be. 

 

Sorry. English is not my first language, so I had misunderstood what you said before. 

Thank you for clarifying, this makes sense to me.

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Lucaman    0

and how can we stop this spreding in a sealed base? when they are coughing they dump polluted oxygen with slimelung? Is there any "system" that we can create to stop this?

 

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DyingCrow    89
Posted (edited)

I put a bit more effort into figuring all this stuff out, based on other info that was posted here, and find a reliable, simple way to contain it or deal with it once and for all.

- Infected or already sick dupes should not be allowed to share the same living space as healthy dupes in any way. Infected may get sick, and sick will emit packets of polluted o2 with germs that will infect other dupes.

- Vitamin chews, immuno boosters and med packs are, imo, a complete waste of time and effort. As long as infected dupes share the same space, it will always be a vicious cycle.

I did a little experiment where i built an isolated quarantine dungeon, with amenities, food, decor, all that stuff. Not a med bay room, it wouldn't make sense in this context, as i was not intending to cure them. At the start of this experiment, i only had 3 sick dupes, and no dupes that had been exposed to germs; picked all 3 sick dupes and tossed them in there. Any dupes that had been exposed would have been tossed in as well.

Then just waited for them to get cured. As they did, i immediately kicked them out of quarantine. In the meanwhile, i deleted all the infected polluted o2 packets indoors so no one else would get sick. This would have been the ideal scenario where prevention would have been strictly enforced since very early on, having a completely germ free atmosphere indoors (which i thought i did in the op, and was completely wrong because i was silly and didn't properly use the gas overlay)

Based on this, enforcing strict quarantine and isolation, instead of employing prevention and cures, seems to be the best course of action from very early game. This may significantly reduce the chances of outbreaks or maybe even eliminate the problem completely (still has to be verified) after exosuits are employed. It will slow down all the work that has to be done, but sick dupes are not very productive anyways, and the problem will not go away by itself.

Note: all this is based on the "no one goes outside without an exosuit" rule. If you let your dupes out in the wild in their underwear, maybe this does not apply ;)

----------------------------------------

TLDR: consider slimelung as a zombie outbreak. If they get infected or are already sick, lock em up tight until they heal or die. Outside of the main colony. No exceptions. And forget about snake oil cures.

1 hour ago, Lucaman said:

and how can we stop this spreding in a sealed base? when they are coughing they dump polluted oxygen with slimelung? Is there any "system" that we can create to stop this?

 

I believe the above is a good way to deal with it.

Edited by DyingCrow

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miauly    115
2 hours ago, Lucaman said:

and how can we stop this spreding in a sealed base? when they are coughing they dump polluted oxygen with slimelung? Is there any "system" that we can create to stop this?

On normal settings it seems that numbers are tuned so that the re-infection slowly clears off. I had a case in my game where I managed to forget slime in the base and half of it got filled with slimelung, around 6 or so dupes got sick. After slime removal and a bunch of deodorizers, infection cleared itself out without any cure. Surely dupes got re-infected for a couple of times, but in the end it still cleared out by itself.

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DyingCrow    89
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, miauly said:

On normal settings it seems that numbers are tuned so that the re-infection slowly clears off. I had a case in my game where I managed to forget slime in the base and half of it got filled with slimelung, around 6 or so dupes got sick. After slime removal and a bunch of deodorizers, infection cleared itself out without any cure. Surely dupes got re-infected for a couple of times, but in the end it still cleared out by itself.

It didn't, in my case. I had to build a bunker for the exposed and sick, and lock them in there until i had it sorted out. Cleared the air indoors, revised some risk situations, and let them out as they got cured. Even then, some were still being exposed to slimelung, and i had to toss them back in. Took some 15ish cycles to completely get rid of it. Hopefully.

I did learn a lesson from it, tho: prevention. Not having to deal with it is the better solution.

Edited by DyingCrow

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avc15    328
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lucaman said:

and how can we stop this spreding in a sealed base? when they are coughing they dump polluted oxygen with slimelung? Is there any "system" that we can create to stop this?

 

DyingCow went into a lot of detail but you can get away with just two things if you are very thorough.

(1) clean ALL the polluted oxygen in your base, and don't let any new PO2 into your base. Use deodorizers.

With a pitfall. If you used deodorizers to clean your air, they will each keep up to 150g of polluted oxygen inside. If you deconstruct them, it gets out.

(2) Make your dupes get in exosuits every time before leaving base.

Before you have exosuits, just, have some med bays stocked and ready each time you send them out.

 

I actually don't follow these rules all the time, especially because my main oxygen supply is open-air evaporation of polluted water. Germs die quickly in clean oxygen, but spread rapidly in polluted oxygen, so, you can keep the germs under control. However. The above 2 rules make a good set for beginners to start with.

Edited by avc15

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JohnFrancis    347

It was stated a few times that dupes with slimlung cough polluted oxygen and germs. I have only dealt with one outbreak and the dupes did not cough up polluted oxygen. Additionally if the dupes coughed in clean oxygen no germs came out. My understanding of the mechanic is if you have a base with 100% clean oxygen then slime lung cannot get a foot hold.

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Lucaman    0

I'm playing in fatalistic/pessimistic difficulty. My base was 100% clean oxygen, even my polluted dirt from water sieve was sealed, and my base exit's were all protected with exosuits, one dupe brought slimelung (still figuring out how it happened) and now i can't get rid of it, 'cause when they cough they put a packet of 1000g polluted oxygen with slimelung, and I have lots of deodorizers through my base but can´t kill all the germs. Any solution? And how to do it, please

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DyingCrow    89
8 hours ago, JohnFrancis said:

It was stated a few times that dupes with slimlung cough polluted oxygen and germs. I have only dealt with one outbreak and the dupes did not cough up polluted oxygen. Additionally if the dupes coughed in clean oxygen no germs came out. My understanding of the mechanic is if you have a base with 100% clean oxygen then slime lung cannot get a foot hold.

I didn't notice how filthy things were until i used the gas overlay. That's when i realized how many po2 packets were moving around, and even pco2 in the exosuit airlock.

 

2 hours ago, Lucaman said:

I'm playing in fatalistic/pessimistic difficulty. My base was 100% clean oxygen, even my polluted dirt from water sieve was sealed, and my base exit's were all protected with exosuits, one dupe brought slimelung (still figuring out how it happened) and now i can't get rid of it, 'cause when they cough they put a packet of 1000g polluted oxygen with slimelung, and I have lots of deodorizers through my base but can´t kill all the germs. Any solution? And how to do it, please

Maybe try my solution. Build a separate bunker, with basic amenities, and lock sick or exposed dupes inside until they heal up. Don't just lock the sick, if you leave the exposed unchecked, they may wake up sick and screw everything again. Don't forget to set door permissions. You will have to manually assign a cot and a table to each resident, then reassign when they leave, unless you don't care if they eat and sleep on the floor. I stopped caring, but i'm playing with morale on normal.

The silly amount of deodorizers will immediately eliminate any po2 packets as they are generated. I built mesh tiles just in case one sneaks by and goes up or down, but should not be necessary.

If you want to go the extra mile and minimize sick dupe downtime, which might be considerable if you have a high turnover until all the root causes of the outbreak have been identified and dealt with (i goddam did...), you can add a second entrance with an exosuit checkpoint and dock for your doctor, then build a sick bay and store a few med packs. I would not chance the doc getting sick because he spent just a bit too long caring for patients, just adds to the number

Automating food, and build sand storage also with automation would probably be a good idea, but i didn't bother with it. Maybe i should have.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Considerations:

Identify and solve all the root causes that may cause another outbreak. Absolutely ban any slime, ph2o, polluted dirt or anything that can outgas po2 indoors. No dupes should ever carry any of those indoors. If you have mushrooms, make sure there is no connection to the interior, and dupes wear suits when farming.

Build a few outhouses outdoors, just in case your toilets get screwed up for some reason.

Keep interior air pressure between 1500g and 2000g.

 

image.thumb.png.a9c51380dc43d4baef1b973c39fb899c.png

I'm going to be honest, dealing with this situation has been a complete pain, and 15 cycles after starting containment dupes are still getting exposed somehow. At some point i thought i had it under control... I've had to stop everything else and micro the situation, following dupes around, see what they do and spot anything i might have missed. More then a pain, it's getting aggravating :/ Hospital simulator aggravating...

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