Remove and combine some items

[Charsis]

On 21/05/2019 at 4:52 PM, Mack Swell said:

FUNCTIONALLY marble and moonstone cannot be the same because the moonstone is not marble.

Good logic very accurat.

On 21/05/2019 at 4:52 PM, Mack Swell said:

Moonstones are form the moon, which may or may not be alive, mind you, and carry excellent lore and magic capabilities. Marble isn't magic, isn't from a debatably living entity, and most definitely isn't more powerful for walls.

Trees are alive and marble can grow in marble tree. Both come from living and not living things. They have too much in common you not realise. And why not make walls with? It is strong material for that.

On 22/05/2019 at 1:11 PM, Cpt. KatKit said:

Deleting items doesn't give them more uses.

Best argument ever deserve all like in world!

On 23/05/2019 at 3:23 PM, G-Forces said:

I am highly disgusted by the original sugestion of this thread.

 

On 23/05/2019 at 5:24 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

i suggest that this thread be locked; I dare say nothing more constructive can come out of it.

 

On 23/05/2019 at 10:43 PM, G-Forces said:

This already exists.

Salty fanbase, very

 

Very glad none actually respond to my points to make any counter argument directly to what I say. Very good debate skill around this place!

[GetNerfedOn]

28 minutes ago, Charsis said:

snip

Excuse me, we have already responded with the right arguments and multiple viable counterpoints, and I see no further reason to do so again and again as nothing constructive came after our responses, especially since they were not given the logical consideration they deserve.

Therefore, I suggested - and continue to suggest - to lock this thread down. This discussion is going nowhere.

 

[Charsis]

4 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Excuse me, we have already responded with the right arguments and multiple viable counterpoints, and I see no further reason to do so again and again as nothing constructive came after our responses, especially since they were not given the logical consideration they deserve.

If you look back I did actually respond properly. I see almost none else quoting me while I quote many responses and address points answered. Any example how I not address point properly? This response is example of me properly address point you made!

4 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Therefore, I suggested - and continue to suggest - to lock this thread down. This discussion is going nowhere.

So locking thread because people disagree? Love this forum. Hate idea, bombard topic with satiric hate and then have thread lock from it "got out of hand". Good job you got what you wanted. You should not have the power to do so if that is how this happens. Some admin need take note of what people do and instead of lock thread to throw out idea, make people stop doing this. I started constructively this topic, lot of people who respond to me are at fault for making topic look bad.

If people actually made good argument against idea, people would not throw angry sarcasm at topic. It just shows you don't like idea (not you specifically GetNerfedOn), have no good arguments, then take ``roasting`` approach that is completely not constructive. Not believe me? Look back at some responses in this topic.

[GetNerfedOn]

2 hours ago, Charsis said:

 Any example how I not address point properly? 

One thing to properly responding to counterexamples to your argument is the logical accuracy of your supporting statements.

Yes, you may have followed standard procedure like quoting and addressing the points you answered, but most of the counterexamples you provided (Nitre has an ugly texture, it is annoying/Moonstone and marble game functionally could very well be the same item) provide little logical reason to refute the counterarguments presented.

An example which immediately comes to mind is this:

Someone posted this valid concern:

Quote

Moonstone and marble? They're completely different minerals. One mundane and the other has magical properties. Combining the two would be getting rid of a lot of established lore. Klei's been hinting at the moon's involvement in the story almost as long as DST has been around. And now the moon is the major focus of the new content, I'm sure moonstone will get even more uses soon.

cred. @Sinister_Fang

And you responded with:

Quote

Hate all about what you said in this. Game functionally they could very well be same item. And it do make sense at least to me if they are same type of item like in Hamlet Pig skin and Pig skin? is because they both hard material use for tough stuffs and relate to clockwork very similarly. They look almost same, just one is more blue than other.

Not only did you present a flawed argument (Moonstone looks like Marble, Moonstone functions like marble; therefore, Moonstone IS Marble) but you also had the gall to state your hatred about the counterargument.

And what makes it amusing to me is that you decided to agree with this line of thought later on.

Quote

Good logic very accurat.

 

2 hours ago, Charsis said:

So locking thread because people disagree? Love this forum. Hate idea, bombard topic with satiric hate and then have thread lock from it "got out of hand". Good job you got what you wanted. You should not have the power to do so if that is how this happens. Some admin need take note of what people do and instead of lock thread to throw out idea, make people stop doing this. I started constructively this topic, lot of people who respond to me are at fault for making topic look bad.

If people actually made good argument against idea, people would not throw angry sarcasm at topic. It just shows you don't like idea (not you specifically GetNerfedOn), have no good arguments, then take ``roasting`` approach that is completely not constructive. Not believe me? Look back at some responses in this topic.

I suggested to lock the thread because the discussion has nothing more useful to offer and has nothing more to give or add to the original topic, not because some people disagreed to your topic, though admittedly it got out of hand from there.

Besides, I do not have the power to lock the thread. I only suggested it. It is up to those with the power to act on my suggestion.

What is more, most of the previous disagreements like:

Quote

Spoiler

Just because you personally don't use them doesn't mean it's a generalization. They are assets already in game, with enough work gone into them from graphic and programming points of view. Instead of removing why not give them MORE uses, especially for stingers?! (Stinger Traps when?!)

PS: for counter-example I use Nitre a lot, especially as Winona.

cred. @x0VERSUS1y

 

Quote

Spoiler

What? Why? Why should an item get removed from the game because it's 'annoying to carry?' Nitre has many uses, many of which are related to Summer, but also other applications in the crafting of some items added in ANR.

Pig skin and Pig skin? stack because they serve the exact same purpose. In essence they are the same item. Pig skin? is another way to get pigskin without murdering inhabitants of the Hamlet, design-wise it is clear why they stack as one.

Making moonrock and marble stack this way doesn't make much sense. Moon stone is highly symbolic and clearly has some form of otherworldly ability, as it is commonly used to channel the power of gems. Marble is just marble. It looks nice, but is probably not magical.

Not every item in the game needs to have a large amount of applications. Sure, some items like stingers or bone shards have minimal or even trivial usage but this does not necessarily justify their removal. 

cred. @NeddoFreddo

 

Quote

Spoiler

When you finally survive until summer, you’ll probably have second thoughts about getting rid of nitre.

cred. @Rellimarual

 

were logical, valid and not posted out of hate, but out of logical response to your argument and your following counterarguments, which are honestly flawed. These responses aimed to show you the flaws in your argument ("Useless items need to be removed/replaced") and state counterexamples ("Nitre has plenty of important uses e.g. Endothermic fires" / "Stingers need to be expanded upon, especially in light of the new DLC where they are used in Boat Patches" / "Moon Rocks and Marble are two functionally different items") to refute your claim.

And though indeed lots of responses became highly insulting, overblown and satirical, locking the thread would halt them altogether... honestly though, guys. Why pick on the poor guy like this?

[SinancoTheBest]

Dude, alongside the physical difference of Marbles and Moonrocka everyone have pointed out, they have very different gameplay mechanics too; Marble is easily farmable, you just make marble trees. Moonrocks are intentionally rare and come falling in meteor showers only to surface. Sure, marbles deserve a lot more uses like Marble walls and furniture but obtaining them is much different than moonrocks, which are used in powerful magical recipes.

Also nitre has tons of uses, just because it's quite useless in the first autumn doesn't mean it'll stay useless forever, actually in the late game it's becomes quite the basic resource.

 

Stingers do take a lot of place but they deserve more uses, not a merger with unrelated teeth or bones.

 

Actual things you might have argued about like irredecent gem and gloomer wings are missing in your post for some reason.

[Charsis]

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

One thing to properly responding to counterexamples to your argument is the logical accuracy of your supporting statements.

Yes, you may have followed standard procedure like quoting and addressing the points you answered, but most of the counterexamples you provided (Nitre has an ugly texture, it is annoying/Moonstone and marble game functionally could very well be the same item) provide little logical reason to refute the counterarguments presented.

An example which immediately comes to mind is this:

Someone posted this valid concern:

And you responded with:

Not only did you present a flawed argument (Moonstone looks like Marble, Moonstone functions like marble; therefore, Moonstone IS Marble) but you also had the gall to state your hatred about the counterargument.

That is moot point. The item not the same in game, but because of those reason I think they should be the same item like Pig skin and Pig skin? are. Because they so similar, they might as well stack. It can help make moonrock wall when you have excess marble none uses for anything, which does happen lots if you farm it but none use it and it overflow. They are both very strong material, look much alike and very much relate to clockwork that relate to moon, so, I think is fair.

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

And you responded with:

Quote

Good logic very accurat.

It was sarcasm to point out flaw in person's argument, where they basically say ``moonstone is not marble, therefore moonstone cannot be marble`` like wtf?!

On 21/05/2019 at 4:52 PM, Mack Swell said:

FUNCTIONALLY marble and moonstone cannot be the same because the moonstone is not marble.

 

 

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

 

I suggested to lock the thread because the discussion has nothing more useful to offer and has nothing more to give or add to the original topic, not because some people disagreed to your topic, though admittedly it got out of hand from there.

Besides, I do not have the power to lock the thread. I only suggested it. It is up to those with the power to act on my suggestion.

Ok, you entitled to your opinion I respect that.

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

What is more, most of the previous disagreements like:

were logical, valid and not posted out of hate, but out of logical response to your argument and your following counterarguments, which are honestly flawed. These responses aimed to show you the flaws in your argument ("Useless items need to be removed/replaced") and state counterexamples ("Nitre has plenty of important uses e.g. Endothermic fires" / "Stingers need to be expanded upon, especially in light of the new DLC where they are used in Boat Patches" / "Moon Rocks and Marble are two functionally different items") to refute your claim.

But problem is already said things to respond to those arguments, but guess not directly. So here is the response to them and you will see my point far better with this I think.

 

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

Hide contents

Just because you personally don't use them doesn't mean it's a generalization. They are assets already in game, with enough work gone into them from graphic and programming points of view. Instead of removing why not give them MORE uses, especially for stingers?! (Stinger Traps when?!)

PS: for counter-example I use Nitre a lot, especially as Winona.

cred. @x0VERSUS1y

Something in game that has work put in doesn't necessarily make it good work that ought to be in game. Many things that had lots of work were thrown out, visibly so, because they not have distinct purpose that is cler enough or they don't fit developer vision for what the game needed to look. Though now they implementing unused stuff, sometime just because they need something to add (like Wortox) which I think is dip in standard for Klei, but that different discussion entirely.

Making things have more uses just because they don't have any is lack of understanding how game is designed. I mention earlier that I believe in the idea that perfection is achieved when you can't throw more things out rather than when you have nothing more to add. Stinger could be taken out and many people would not care or even be relieved. One less resource to gather and manage for nor reason just because it is lying around everywhere.

And either way, your point is moot because the only thing that require time for this item really is drawing static texture, that is it. Way less than some unimplemented stuffs that could never see implemented in game at all. And if you think that is bare minimum to justify the item in game, then look like you have very low standards for content.

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

  Hide contents

What? Why? Why should an item get removed from the game because it's 'annoying to carry?' Nitre has many uses, many of which are related to Summer, but also other applications in the crafting of some items added in ANR.

Pig skin and Pig skin? stack because they serve the exact same purpose. In essence they are the same item. Pig skin? is another way to get pigskin without murdering inhabitants of the Hamlet, design-wise it is clear why they stack as one.

Making moonrock and marble stack this way doesn't make much sense. Moon stone is highly symbolic and clearly has some form of otherworldly ability, as it is commonly used to channel the power of gems. Marble is just marble. It looks nice, but is probably not magical.

Not every item in the game needs to have a large amount of applications. Sure, some items like stingers or bone shards have minimal or even trivial usage but this does not necessarily justify their removal. 

cred. @NeddoFreddo

Nitre has some good uses and it isn't that useless long term but they are forced. Cold fires, morning star, booster shot (recipe of this is particularly disgusting because it try to make you gather stuff you normally would not and it make zero sense why you would for injection), lawn stuffs in hamlet, may be even flares. Mainly just used for gunpowder and was the reason it introduced to game in first place. Many of this recipe can benefit not having nitre as ingredient in them, they show no sign or reason it would require it. May be the resource should not be removed, but at least remove from regular rock drops, because this;

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

  Hide contents

When you finally survive until summer, you’ll probably have second thoughts about getting rid of nitre.

cred. @Rellimarual

Yes, late game! Not early game when you get so much of it and have no reason to use it, so it just lie around or gathered and not used for much early on. In summary;

* Many nitre recipes are forced to give it use, not because it fits it best and sometime it can be real annoying to just get something this obscure for a recipe, when nitre is not anything special really.

* Any use it has earlier on is not enough to expend the amounts you get so early on from normal rock, compared to something like rocks which you get in about the same amount early game.

 

I needed mention these points at start and thought I did but look like I didn't so sorry for that.

 

On 25/05/2019 at 2:22 PM, GetNerfedOn said:

And though indeed lots of responses became highly insulting, overblown and satirical, locking the thread would halt them altogether... honestly though, guys. Why pick on the poor guy like this?

Thank you, I notice at least one person here seem to be to troll and barrage disagreeable topic. I saw them in another doing the same thing You know who you are, stop it!

[GetNerfedOn]

3 hours ago, Charsis said:

That is moot point. The item not the same in game, but because of those reason I think they should be the same item like Pig skin and Pig skin? are. Because they so similar, they might as well stack. It can help make moonrock wall when you have excess marble none uses for anything, which does happen lots if you farm it but none use it and it overflow. They are both very strong material, look much alike and very much relate to clockwork that relate to moon, so, I think is fair.

It was sarcasm to point out "flaw" in person's argument, where they basically say ``moonstone is not marble, therefore moonstone cannot be marble`` like wtf?

That's exactly our point. 

Marble and Moonstone are two entirely different materials in the game, period. Your allusion of Pig Skin and Pig Skin? is a false analogy fallacy because Pig skin and Pig Skin? are materials of similar function and composition derived from the skin of animals.

Marble is a nonmagical item native to the constant, with niche uses like Marble Suits and decorations.

Moonstone is a much stronger, magical item which came from the moon in meteors. IT is used in more magical uses such as moonlenses, the Moon portal, sturdier Moon Rock Walls, and the like.

Therefore, they are different items with different compositions and different uses which deserve different classifications. I believe we have made ourselves clear here.

So basically your entire point (Moonstone = Marble) is still invalid. And nothing you have said logically proves them to be so.

Also, where does moonstone relate to clockworks???

Lastly, nothing takes away the fact that you included your feelings of hatred and sarcasm into your argument.

Quote

Something in game that has work put in doesn't necessarily make it good work that ought to be in game. Many things that had lots of work were thrown out, visibly so, because they not have distinct purpose that is cler enough or they don't fit developer vision for what the game needed to look. Though now they implementing unused stuff, sometime just because they need something to add (like Wortox) which I think is dip in standard for Klei, but that different discussion entirely.

But despite this, Nitre, Stingers and the rest of the items you mentioned already have their distinct uses in the game, which is precisely why the game devs did not throw them out They fit the devs' visions of a game where you had to scrounge for the most unlikely of resources to survive, the ingame balancing etc., and though admittedly they lack too many uses to be interesting, they could ad least be expounded upon like they are being now. They were made for a reason, a function, for recipes, and for a vision. Taking them out would would not help the devs by the least and would remove their niches in the game.

3 hours ago, Charsis said:

Making things have more uses just because they don't have any is lack of understanding how game is designed. I mention earlier that I believe in the idea that perfection is achieved when you can't throw more things out rather than when you have nothing more to add. Stinger could be taken out and many people would not care or even be relieved. One less resource to gather and manage for nor reason just because it is lying around everywhere.

If that is your logic/belief, the developers should not have not added anything after Don't Starve was finished, as it is technically already a finished, and in your own belief, perfect game. If that is your logic/belief, they should have not gone through with developing Reign of Giants, Shipwrecked, Hamlet, and Don't Starve Together as having nothing more to add to it makes it a perfect game. 

Take out stingers, and a lot of game features are inevitably hit. I'll lose the ability to craft Boat Repair kits in SW which are one of the most reliable, if not the most reliable ways to tank boat damage before, during and after an engagement. Admittedly in DS alone, RoG and DST it has little use. But that doesn't mean it should be taken out entirely because despite not having much uses, it still is of some use, and could be of some use. Especially as Wormwood arrives, as you'll need stingers to craft bramble traps.

3 hours ago, Charsis said:

And either way, your point is moot because the only thing that require time for this item really is drawing static texture, that is it. Way less than some unimplemented stuffs that could never see implemented in game at all. And if you think that is bare minimum to justify the item in game, then look like you have very low standards for content.

I honestly don't get this point. Who are you to judge anyone's standards for content?

3 hours ago, Charsis said:

Nitre has some good uses and it isn't that useless long term but they are forced. Cold fires, morning star, booster shot (recipe of this is particularly disgusting because it try to make you gather stuff you normally would not and it make zero sense why you would for injection), lawn stuffs in hamlet, may be even flares. Mainly just used for gunpowder and was the reason it introduced to game in first place. Many of this recipe can benefit not having nitre as ingredient in them, they show no sign or reason it would require it. May be the resource should not be removed, but at least remove from regular rock drops, because this;

Yes, late game! Not early game when you get so much of it and have no reason to use it, so it just lie around or gathered and not used for much early on. In summary;

Again, as many others have said, just because it's early game and you have little reason to use it doesn't mean it should be removed. And none of its' recipes violate the design philosophy and creative vision of DS which is to find solutions to survive in bizarre ways that defy reality. (I'm looking at you, Dumbrella. And you too, Weather Pain.)

I mean, come on.

Potassium nitrate is used in medicine, and is used to combat hypertension among other things.

It's used as a chemical for explosives, which imo justifies the little electrifying explosions you get when you whack someone with a Morning Star. It's also used in a type of battery, which fit its' usage in electric items like the Morning Star.

It's used in cold fires because it's again a reactive chemical irl and it can be used to portray a reverse reaction from the heat of a campfire, and basically fills the important role of cooling you down during Summer. Had they not put endo fires ingame the devs would have faced imbalance accusations as there would be little ways to cool off during summer.

Quote

But problem is already said things to respond to those arguments, but guess not directly. So here is the response to them and you will see my point far better with this I think.

 

We indeed see your points. Logically they just  do not check out and we felt the need to correct them.

TL;DR,

 - Moonstone and Marble are not the same item, and neither are Hounds Teeth and Bone shards anyways.

 - The items you seek to remove already have their niche uses in the game. To remove them would disrupt the game entirely.

 - The items you seek to remove do not violate DS' design philosophy, validating their stay ingame as well.

 - The items you seek to remove would be better off given more uses than removed entirely.

 

 

Spoiler

Now here is this last point I would like to mention:

We have been going back and forth and back and forth again in this great argument, with the community providing copious amounts of information to refute your claims.

But it just boils down to the same result. You will inevitably keep on providing your same arguments, and keep believing ours are flawed.

 

This is why the discussion, I believe, has went nowhere. Despite our efforts to make something out of this mess very little was gained.

This is why the thread must be locked.

 

And whether or not it is, I am done with this thread entirely. I had hopes for it to make sense, even if just a bit. Those hopes were dashed.

 

[Charsis]

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

That's exactly our point. 

Marble and Moonstone are two entirely different materials in the game, period. Your allusion of Pig Skin and Pig Skin? is a false analogy fallacy because Pig skin and Pig Skin? are materials of similar function and composition derived from the skin of animals.

Marble is a nonmagical item native to the constant, with niche uses like Marble Suits and decorations.

Moonstone is a much stronger, magical item which came from the moon in meteors. IT is used in more magical uses such as moonlenses, the Moon portal, sturdier Moon Rock Walls, and the like.

Therefore, they are different items with different compositions and different uses which deserve different classifications. I believe we have made ourselves clear here.

So basically your entire point (Moonstone = Marble) is still invalid. And nothing you have said logically proves them to be so.

Also, where does moonstone relate to clockworks???

Lastly, nothing takes away the fact that you included your feelings of hatred and sarcasm into your argument.

I don't agree. Moonrock wall is not magical in any way, just robust wall, like marble can be, that is my first reason for thinking they could both be same item. Moonstone being more magical is very farfetched even if devs want to distinguish them they look, act (make strong stuff with them) and are closely related too (through clockwork). Note similarly, not the same. Functionally for game it would benefit to have both the same item too. I bet if they set both item to stack from start none would be making this weird arguments you guys make at all. And they used to look even more alike when moonrock was more white than blue.

And moonstone relate to clockwork because the statues make them come out at full and new moons, something the moon island itself is very closely based on if you look at sanity on that island as moon cycle.

 

What you mean by me included hatred and sarcasm in my argument? Only know one example of sarcasm, but no hate, I don't know anything else.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

But despite this, Nitre, Stingers and the rest of the items you mentioned already have their distinct uses in the game, which is precisely why the game devs did not throw them out They fit the devs' visions of a game where you had to scrounge for the most unlikely of resources to survive, the ingame balancing etc., and though admittedly they lack too many uses to be interesting, they could ad least be expounded upon like they are being now. They were made for a reason, a function, for recipes, and for a vision. Taking them out would would not help the devs by the least and would remove their niches in the game.

I do not agree with idea of niche at all. If something start out as niche, but then you can later see the bigger picture, that is great. But if it is niche for the sake of some random weirdness, why bother? That is just filling empty space without much thought.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

If that is your logic/belief, the developers should not have not added anything after Don't Starve was finished, as it is technically already a finished, and in your own belief, perfect game. If that is your logic/belief, they should have not gone through with developing Reign of Giants, Shipwrecked, Hamlet, and Don't Starve Together as having nothing more to add to it makes it a perfect game. 

Lol wat no it not. You clearly have no idea what the idea behind what I meant at all do you? Nitre and stinger could be remove from game and crafting recipe and no visible change would be seen for most things. If you remove gold, however, some might start to wonder why and it would be really weird, but not for these item. I think they would only work well if they not so common for the ``niche`` recipe sake. You don't use them for much early game so you should not get them early game in this high amounts at least.

Add too much to something and it become too saturated. Strip away anything that is not essential to making something great and you can reach near perfection. If you still don't get what that means and what I mean by that, I don't think you will ever understand what I mean.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Take out stingers, and a lot of game features are inevitably hit. I'll lose the ability to craft Boat Repair kits in SW which are one of the most reliable, if not the most reliable ways to tank boat damage before, during and after an engagement. Admittedly in DS alone, RoG and DST it has little use. But that doesn't mean it should be taken out entirely because despite not having much uses, it still is of some use, and could be of some use. Especially as Wormwood arrives, as you'll need stingers to craft bramble traps.

SW boat repair kit non possible to craft; no offence but is about the stupidest thing you have said so far (not to say you say lots of stupid stuff, you don't, but this sound very stupid). You do realise removing stinger from recipe doesn't mean removing the recipe entirely right? It just mean that the recipe won't need the resource at all or can be substituted with something else. If you meant something else there, then please elaborate, otherwise this sound very stupid. Remember that boat repair kit has GLUE in texture, not something you make out of stingers is it? It not require anything that can remotely be considered glue in game.

Again, not having much use isn't the problem. The problem is it is not used in basic recipe you craft stuff to begin with and there is lots of it lying around. And it would be very stupid if it did, unless Klei can think of something really magically awesome that make sense and looks good.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

I honestly don't get this point. Who are you to judge anyone's standards for content?

Right back at you; who are you to say I can't?

If there is no standard then everything is good, nothing is bad and everyone is content about everything. That sounds very stupid.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Again, as many others have said, just because it's early game and you have little reason to use it doesn't mean it should be removed. And none of its' recipes violate the design philosophy and creative vision of DS which is to find solutions to survive in bizarre ways that defy reality. (I'm looking at you, Dumbrella. And you too, Weather Pain.

May be. But it does mean it should not be dropped from regular rock, because you do not need it at all at that point and game gives you lots of it, which sucks. Game should give stuff in abundance to you when you need it, like thulecite and ancient color gem is in ruins while other gem type and nightmare fuel is scarce at first until you get magic machine up, which I think is very well done. That is why nightmare fuel doesn't fit the uselessness as usually you will have little next to none near beginning and need very specific condition to get it while nitre is a pickaxe away early game when it should not be.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Potassium nitrate is used in medicine, and is used to combat hypertension among other things.

It's used as a chemical for explosives, which imo justifies the little electrifying explosions you get when you whack someone with a Morning Star. It's also used in a type of battery, which fit its' usage in electric items like the Morning Star.

It's used in cold fires because it's again a reactive chemical irl and it can be used to portray a reverse reaction from the heat of a campfire, and basically fills the important role of cooling you down during Summer. Had they not put endo fires ingame the devs would have faced imbalance accusations as there would be little ways to cool off during summer.

That is a very good point. But still, if it is in game, it should not be this common an item early on. And its texture should suggest electric capability in that case but it does not. It look like chunk of bread crumbs or rock dust. It can look like it in real life but in game it not look so good.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

We indeed see your points. Logically they just  do not check out and we felt the need to correct them.

I don't think you do. I see your points, but I don't agree with them, because I don't subscribe to this ``niche`` culture and like more polished thing more than anything where most of everything should stand out well on their own for good reason without weird looks.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

TL;DR,

 - Moonstone and Marble are not the same item, and neither are Hounds Teeth and Bone shards anyways.

 - The items you seek to remove already have their niche uses in the game. To remove them would disrupt the game entirely.

 - The items you seek to remove do not violate DS' design philosophy, validating their stay ingame as well.

 - The items you seek to remove would be better off given more uses than removed entirely.

* They are not the same item, and...? And what? They are not same item so they should not be same item? You making the same point I pointed out was backing up itself by itself and not any good reason. The way you would go about refuting me should be something like ``Moonstone and Marble should not be the same item BECAUSE...`` and then give reason. Saying something is because it is that way is not an argument just a void statement. You gave reasons before the tldr but this here does not summarise any point at all.

You provided no reason for bone shard and hound tooth to not be same item. These item very much look alike, very much are used similar way (filler for sharp object in crafting recipe) and most important of all are bones. Could argue fossil fragment should then be too, but they serve a good special purpose and are old look bones, so it would not really work. But hound tooth and bone shard would very much so.

* Do not subscribe to ``niche`` culture, so I do not agree. Anything can have ``niche``. But game must justify for some item to be in game. Otherwise we might as well have hound leg as an item, just because ``niche`` and why not?

* They violate game loop tho and are a pain in the ass to manage for no good reason since they do not serve good enough purpose as, say, grass does.
* They should be less common until or if they can be given good use to justify being such common items. Giving a use isn't just something you do on a whim, if you do, you get lots of garbage that lacks polish.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Now here is this last point I would like to mention:

We have been going back and forth and back and forth again in this great argument, with the community providing copious amounts of information to refute your claims.

But it just boils down to the same result. You will inevitably keep on providing your same arguments, and keep believing ours are flawed.

 

This is why the discussion, I believe, has went nowhere. Despite our efforts to make something out of this mess very little was gained.

This is why the thread must be locked.

I believe I understand your points but not agree with them, that is true. And counterarguments I give I don't think you fully get. If you did, I would not be responding or would be agreeing with your points entirely and may be even agreeing to lock topic. I agreed with your point about the practical use of nitre so I don't think back and forth is entirely correct. It comes to getting to understand what the other person means and I don't think anyone here really understand lots of my points here.

You have convinced me that nitre should not be remove from game, but should be changed to fit certain narrative and that mainly being electrical stuffs and that it should look like it serve that purpose. But still not as common as it is right now. If you want to bring up point about something like not being able to make enough salt lick for beefalo, well, you can always have devs increase durability on that thing many time over. Lots of things can do with rebalancing in game and application of nitre I think need tweaking.

Just so you know, back and forth is how debate often happen until a conclusion is reached. You have changed my mind a bit, but I still don't agree with lots of what is said and have tried my best to elaborate why.

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

And whether or not it is, I am done with this thread entirely. I had hopes for it to make sense, even if just a bit. Those hopes were dashed.

Ok.

[TurtleKitty]

The only reasoning I can see for allowing marble and moonstone to connect item stacks is so one could mass-farm marble trees and voila~ through the magic of shift-click it changes to moonstone, 1-for-1, with massive imbalance. 
Basically, making an unneeded change regarding different tiered construction items to allow a cheap trick. 

[GetNerfedOn]

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

I don't agree. Moonrock wall is not magical in any way, just robust wall, like marble can be, that is my first reason for thinking they could both be same item. Moonstone being more magical is very farfetched even if devs want to distinguish them they look, act (make strong stuff with them) and are closely related too (through clockwork). Note similarly, not the same. Functionally for game it would benefit to have both the same item too. I bet if they set both item to stack from start none would be making this weird arguments you guys make at all. And they used to look even more alike when moonrock was more white than blue.

And moonstone relate to clockwork because the statues make them come out at full and new moons, something the moon island itself is very closely based on if you look at sanity on that island as moon cycle.

 - Prove that Moonrock is not magical when it is used in clearly magical applications and even allows you to swap the bodies of survivors while Marble cannot. 

 - Moonrock walls may not be magical, but they are way sturdier, taking more hits from players to destroy than other walls. They even take 25 hammer blows to destroy.

 - None of it is farfetched, as Moonstone again has magical applications especially as you use it to craft the celestial portal. They clearly have different uses, different compositions, and different uses. Again, your point is still invalid.

 - Despite the moon making clockworks spawn from marble none of that is directly connected to the presence of moon stone at all.

 - How does Enlightenment relate to the moon cycle as a whole? The full moon / new moon does not affect Enlightenment in any way as far as I have seen.

 - These points by other people also counter your argument, especially in questions of balance.

8 hours ago, TurtleKitty said:

The only reasoning I can see for allowing marble and moonstone to connect item stacks is so one could mass-farm marble trees and voila~ through the magic of shift-click it changes to moonstone, 1-for-1, with massive imbalance. 
Basically, making an unneeded change regarding different tiered construction items to allow a cheap trick. 

On ‎27‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 9:55 AM, SinancoTheBest said:

Dude, alongside the physical difference of Marbles and Moonrocka everyone have pointed out, they have very different gameplay mechanics too; Marble is easily farmable, you just make marble trees. Moonrocks are intentionally rare and come falling in meteor showers only to surface. Sure, marbles deserve a lot more uses like Marble walls and furniture but obtaining them is much different than moonrocks, which are used in powerful magical recipes.

Also nitre has tons of uses, just because it's quite useless in the first autumn doesn't mean it'll stay useless forever, actually in the late game it's becomes quite the basic resource.

Stingers do take a lot of place but they deserve more uses, not a merger with unrelated teeth or bones.

Actual things you might have argued about like irredecent gem and gloomer wings are missing in your post for some reason.

 

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

What you mean by me included hatred and sarcasm in my argument? Only know one example of sarcasm, but no hate, I don't know anything else.

here:

Quote

Hate all about what you said in this. Game functionally they could very well be same item. And it do make sense at least to me if they are same type of item like in Hamlet Pig skin and Pig skin? is because they both hard material use for tough stuffs and relate to clockwork very similarly. They look almost same, just one is more blue than other.

and

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

 no offence but is about the stupidest thing you have said so far (not to say you say lots of stupid stuff, you don't, but this sound very stupid). You do realise removing stinger from recipe doesn't mean removing the recipe entirely right? It just mean that the recipe won't need the resource at all or can be substituted with something else. If you meant something else there, then please elaborate, otherwise this sound very stupid. Remember that boat repair kit has GLUE in texture, not something you make out of stingers is it? It not require anything that can remotely be considered glue in game.

Again, not having much use isn't the problem. The problem is it is not used in basic recipe you craft stuff to begin with and there is lots of it lying around. And it would be very stupid if it did, unless Klei can think of something really magically awesome that make sense and looks good.

If there is no standard then everything is good, nothing is bad and everyone is content about everything. That sounds very stupid.

The words you use are insulting and have no place in a debate either. Though i'll hold you at your words that you mean no offense to me, I would suggest you find a more suitable alternative lest they be taken out of context.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

I do not agree with idea of niche at all. If something start out as niche, but then you can later see the bigger picture, that is great. But if it is niche for the sake of some random weirdness, why bother? That is just filling empty space without much thought.

* Do not subscribe to ``niche`` culture, so I do not agree. Anything can have ``niche``. But game must justify for some item to be in game. Otherwise we might as well have hound leg as an item, just because ``niche`` and why not?

Your first two sentences contradict each other. You say you disagree with niches, then in the next you say you agree with them in a specific situation. Get it straight.

How the hell is the niche of, say, nitre being used for a summer survival item, medicine and electrical components "random weirdness"? How is the niche of being stingers being used for sleep darts and boat repairs "random weirdness"? They make sense ingame, fit the narrative and fulfill important uses. They don't fill empty space without much thought.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

Lol wat no it not. You clearly have no idea what the idea behind what I meant at all do you? Nitre and stinger could be remove from game and crafting recipe and no visible change would be seen for most things. If you remove gold, however, some might start to wonder why and it would be really weird, but not for these item. I think they would only work well if they not so common for the ``niche`` recipe sake.

Well, if the devs removed Nitre and Stingers, lots of people would feel weirded out and wonder why. Bees wouldn't drop anything but honey. Rocks wouldn't drop anything but flint, rocks and gold. There wouldn't be anything to survive summer or aggro/sleep Koalefants and fix boats.

Nitre and stingers are still important despite filling a niche role. Removing them from the game now would see lots of visible changes and balance problems.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

Add too much to something and it become too saturated. Strip away anything that is not essential to making something great and you can reach near perfection. If you still don't get what that means and what I mean by that, I don't think you will ever understand what I mean.

Then how do you plan to reach this near - perfection? By removing items in the game which have important uses? By merging entirely different items with fleeting similarities?

I feel adding functions to useless items which clutter the ground isn't adding too much. It would add more creative and  interesting ways to use them and to play the game.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

SW boat repair kit non possible to craft; no offence but is about the stupidest thing you have said so far (not to say you say lots of stupid stuff, you don't, but this sound very stupid). You do realise removing stinger from recipe doesn't mean removing the recipe entirely right? It just mean that the recipe won't need the resource at all or can be substituted with something else. If you meant something else there, then please elaborate, otherwise this sound very stupid. Remember that boat repair kit has GLUE in texture, not something you make out of stingers is it? It not require anything that can remotely be considered glue in game.

The Boat Repair Kit item texture has always confused me there to no end. How the hell do you glue together planks floating in the sea? Do you not attach them mechanically, not physically? You're supposed to nail the planks together, otherwise your glue will dissolve and your ropes will loosen due to the influence of sea water. You need nails to help patch up leaks on a boat, and for that you have Stingers. I do wish they changed the texture into a tool kit like the new boat kits for the New DLC. That would make more sense.

And do you suppose you can craft Boat Repair kits with just boards and rope? Doesn't make much sense to me as aforementioned.

With that logic, you suggest we are to craft Morning Stars without nitre, Endo Fires without nitre, . These don't make any sense at all, in terms of game design and balance.

I do realize you mean to remove Nitre and Stingers from their recipes; however, they are already components in the 

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

Again, not having much use isn't the problem. The problem is it is not used in basic recipe you craft stuff to begin with and there is lots of it lying around. And it would be very stupid if it did, unless Klei can think of something really magically awesome that make sense and looks good.

Right back at you; who are you to say I can't?

If there is no standard then everything is good, nothing is bad and everyone is content about everything. That sounds very stupid.

Well then, to judge items are of little use is okay, then, but to judge them by criteria which don't define their usefulness (useless only in early game and has little use and ugly design and "random weirdness" in the game is invalid.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

May be. But it does mean it should not be dropped from regular rock, because you do not need it at all at that point and game gives you lots of it, which sucks. Game should give stuff in abundance to you when you need it, like thulecite and ancient color gem is in ruins while other gem type and nightmare fuel is scarce at first until you get magic machine up, which I think is very well done. That is why nightmare fuel doesn't fit the uselessness as usually you will have little next to none near beginning and need very specific condition to get it while nitre is a pickaxe away early game when it should not be.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

That is a very good point. But still, if it is in game, it should not be this common an item early on. And its texture should suggest electric capability in that case but it does not. It look like chunk of bread crumbs or rock dust. It can look like it in real life but in game it not look so good.

 - Nightmare fuel is never scarce because of low sanity. I get my first stack at the beginning of Winter and I don't even have a Prestihatitator yet at that point. And there are all the Willow mains who spam BERNIE! nowadays and gain tons of it even in early autumn.

 - What about the fellows who ruins rush and gain full ruins gear by day 18? Who do not complain that Ruins is so littered with Frazzled Wires when they leave? By your logic, Frazzled Wires should be removed, but even if it truly doesn't have any use aside from being traded, it remains because its presence in the game makes sense, even if just a bit.

- You just do not have to mine nitre boulders if that's your problem. I even advocate getting as much of it as I can early so I can immediately place down 2 Endo farms and don't have to scramble around mining nitre while overheating in Summer.

- And what of the Winona mains who slaughter Bee Queen early game with mass catapults? What are they going to fuel their generators if Nitre is taken away?

 - Again, as we have all said: nitre has many uses, which don't warrant its removal nor its' scarcity.

- And do you suggest a more static texture which fits its real life counterpart like a yellow Ash recolor? The devs specifically put work into its design to make it stand out and be its own unique item. Its literally a mineral - keep it looking that way.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

I don't think you do. I see your points, but I don't agree with them, because I don't subscribe to this ``niche`` culture and like more polished thing more than anything where most of everything should stand out well on their own for good reason without weird looks.

* They are not the same item, and...? And what? They are not same item so they should not be same item? You making the same point I pointed out was backing up itself by itself and not any good reason. The way you would go about refuting me should be something like ``Moonstone and Marble should not be the same item BECAUSE...`` and then give reason. Saying something is because it is that way is not an argument just a void statement. You gave reasons before the tldr but this here does not summarise any point at all.

You provided no reason for bone shard and hound tooth to not be same item. These item very much look alike, very much are used similar way (filler for sharp object in crafting recipe) and most important of all are bones. Could argue fossil fragment should then be too, but they serve a good special purpose and are old look bones, so it would not really work. But hound tooth and bone shard would very much so.

* Do not subscribe to ``niche`` culture, so I do not agree. Anything can have ``niche``. But game must justify for some item to be in game. Otherwise we might as well have hound leg as an item, just because ``niche`` and why not?

* They violate game loop tho and are a pain in the ass to manage for no good reason since they do not serve good enough purpose as, say, grass does.
* They should be less common until or if they can be given good use to justify being such common items. Giving a use isn't just something you do on a whim, if you do, you get lots of garbage that lacks polish.

So i'll provide a better TLDR then, thanks for correcting me.

TL;DR:

 - Moonstone and Marble are clearly not the same item because Moonstone is a stronger, sturdier and more magical material than Marble and they have different functional uses. 

 - Houndsteeth and bone shards are used in entirely different purposes (Houndsteeth for weapons and sewing kits due to it's sharpness, bone shards in pieces of clothing, tools and most importantly fertilizer due to its' different composition and structure) and therefore are different items.

 - We subscribe to niche culture because that's how things are supposed to work. Different items have different uses intended to balance out the game. And it's only the truly useless items like Glommer Wings, Glommer's Flower, the Iridescent Gems and Snot among other things which really deserve being thrown out due to being perceived as "useless" - and despite this, they remain in the game because their presence makes sense in the game.

 - How do your aforementioned items violate the game loop in any way? Do explain this.

 - Even if they do not serve a good enough purpose as grass does, they serve a purpose still and thus should not be thrown out, made scarce or merged carelessly.

 - I get the less common point, but we aren't giving more uses to a useless item on a whim; it's because it's what those items deserve functionally and aesthetically.

15 hours ago, Charsis said:

I believe I understand your points but not agree with them, that is true. And counterarguments I give I don't think you fully get. If you did, I would not be responding or would be agreeing with your points entirely and may be even agreeing to lock topic. I agreed with your point about the practical use of nitre so I don't think back and forth is entirely correct. It comes to getting to understand what the other person means and I don't think anyone here really understand lots of my points here.

You have convinced me that nitre should not be remove from game, but should be changed to fit certain narrative and that mainly being electrical stuffs and that it should look like it serve that purpose. But still not as common as it is right now. If you want to bring up point about something like not being able to make enough salt lick for beefalo, well, you can always have devs increase durability on that thing many time over. Lots of things can do with rebalancing in game and application of nitre I think need tweaking.

Just so you know, back and forth is how debate often happen until a conclusion is reached. You have changed my mind a bit, but I still don't agree with lots of what is said and have tried my best to elaborate why.

Ok.

I shall admit that my last statement was full of emotion; thus I shall rescind it and continue with the debate, which is now slowly starting to make sense. I'm not actually cut out for debate at all. However, this is practice.

Again, please be assured I do see your points. The problem that i see is that your points of removing useless items instead of giving them more uses and merging similar, yet functionally different items does not hold well in terms of logic and good design. Those items already have purposes in the game, and though I admit that your point of making them scarcer is a possibly valid point, some of the reasons like "its texture is static" and "they clutter the world early game" aren't as valid because those are entirely different statements which don't support your original statement.

You have indeed done your best to clarify; I hope I have done so as well. 

[DavePlaysDST]

Here some items I want more uses for

stingers

bone shards

if you disagree with me you have the big gay

[GetNerfedOn]

14 minutes ago, DavePlaysDST said:

Here some items I want more uses for

stingers

bone shards

if you disagree with me you have the big gay

There's frazzled wires too, and the aforementioned Iridescent Gem, the Glommer Items, and snot.