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habuky

Experiment: experience gain + attribute gain + learning skill.

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habuky    43

Following Gurgels comment

On 28.4.2019 at 12:04 AM, Gurgel said:

It requires a controlled experiment.

I set up a Learning-Center to examine the mechanics of experience gain and attribute gain in relation to the learning skill.

Here are my observations:

Baseline: if idling the whole cycle there is a baseline experience increase of ~350 XP per cycle
Working: if working the whole cycle there is an increase of roughly ~ 570-630XP per cycle, deepening on the task performed
Interested: if working the whole c
ycle in a field with interest in, there is an increase of roughly ~ 730-900XP per cycle, deepening on the task performed
The learning skill has no influence in experience gain.


Learning does still increase the speed attributes are gained.
Cooking at the grill seems currently to be associated to Tinkering rather than Cooking (skill increase,  Interest based XP gain bonus)

I run out of time. However who ever wants to dig into the topic, please use my save file. Control and comparison groups are set as follows: All dupes are stripped from any effect and have 0 attributes. 50% of dupes have +40 Learning skill. The interest is distributed evenly among dumb and smart dupes. The rooms allow to test different task. The permissions are already set. Skill can be changes using the save file editor

Just open the door and have fun...

LearningCenter.thumb.png.c73979ba1c78d5991a50a3e047c2ee75.png

 

LearningSIM START.sav

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Cypher-7    136

Thanks for running these tests!

I know this topic has been around the forum in a few different treads but what I want to know is if this slight change is game mechanics has changed how you guys pick dupes? 

Do you prefer dupes with high learning or ones with 3 different sets of interests? Maybe different combinations?

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Gus Smedstad    290

I'd say that in the long term, attribute gains are more important than skill gains, and thus learning is still a very valuable skill. Skill points are limited by morale, but there's no cap on attribute gains.

Oh, and as an aside, it's annoying that we now have a terminology issue. Things like "Construction" are labeled "skills," and sound like what you would call a skill, but they're attributes, not skills.

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Skrivener    124
5 hours ago, habuky said:

Cooking at the grill seems currently to be associated to Tinkering rather than Cooking (skill increase,  Interest based XP gain bonus)

:shock:

5 minutes ago, Cypher-7 said:

Do you prefer dupes with high learning or ones with 3 different sets of interests? Maybe different combinations?

I've been going for three useful interests, especially Supply and Research, As far as I can tell there is little point training in skills/tiers that do not provide traits so I don't consider them useful (eg. construction track, plumbing track). Even though I have never gone to space (w/ 3000 hours play time believe it or not) I plan as though I'm going to want cadets eventually, and I have trained up to that level.

I feel like the skills themselves need an overhaul before launch. Eg. pipe emptying is pointless and always has been, no point training construction, better to have a dupe with high construction and train digging only to tier 2. It would be nice if every tier unlocked something more than +2 attribute (zzz).

(Side note for devs: I noticed the germs tutorial is misleading: sterile atmospheres don't protect food from germs since spoilage is not germ-related in ONI and it only protects from spoilage not germs, unless it's chlorine of course.)

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Lacost    186
35 minutes ago, Cypher-7 said:

Thanks for running these tests!

I know this topic has been around the forum in a few different treads but what I want to know is if this slight change is game mechanics has changed how you guys pick dupes? 

Do you prefer dupes with high learning or ones with 3 different sets of interests? Maybe different combinations?

 

It depends on the stage of your colony. A >+5 Construction with +0 Learning can be a godsend for the initial 3 Dupes, allowing you to build toilets, beds and the research station in the first cycle. This gives you a massive headstart and makes the early game easier. Learning on the other hand will only be important once you hit the lategame and the increased attribute leveling surpasses starting attributes.

 

There are also the 2 bugged attributes that can not be increased by working which are cooking and ranching. A +5 Cooking Dupe is therefore infinitely better than a +0 Cooking chef with interests and high learning.

 

You might also be in the situation that your colony absolutely needs more Dupes to carry the workload. If you only wait for the +5 Learning Dupes you might run out of water/coal/algae in your starting biome or slow down your progression significantly. So I also pick +0 Learning Dupes if I'm in desperate need for more labour.

 

--> My current strategy is to increase my population to 10 Dupes without a strong focus on learning attributes. Dupes that come after that will be strongly selected upon their learning attribute so they may keep up with the more experienced Dupes.

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Gus Smedstad    290
1 hour ago, Skrivener said:

pipe emptying is pointless and always has been

While I largely agree with what you said otherwise, this isn’t true. Pipe emptying requires some player skill to use, but it’s highly useful if you know how to do use it.

To use pipe emptying, you must stop the flow of liquid or gas in the pipe first. An experienced player will put bridges into his pipe structure just to allow this, since those can be deconstructed without causing a spill, and doing so usually brings the flow to a halt.

It avoids spills. Spills range from annoying to a loss of resources (in space) to potentially contaminating a holding tank of liquid, halting plant growth, or dumping an unwanted gas into an area where gas type matters, like a farm.

Sometimes you can avoid a spill by forcing all the contents to flow out of the pipe, but if the destination is full, that may not be possible without doing something like creating a temporary holding tank. For a short stretch of pipe, emptying the pipe is often much, much faster than this sort of thing.

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Gurgel    1,101
11 hours ago, habuky said:

Learning does still increase the speed attributes are gained.

Excellent. That basically is what the tool-tips say as well and, at least for me, this is the most important reason to have some learning for each dupe, whether originally, or via assignment of research and skill-ups or via researcher qualifications. Not critical, but nice to have,

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habuky    43
4 hours ago, Cypher-7 said:

Do you prefer dupes with high learning or ones with 3 different sets of interests? Maybe different combinations?

I normally focus on medium-high learning skills for all dupes 3-5 except for the first, which must have 5 or more. He will do all the research, later become artist and maybe doctor.

The interest are quite important now, as they reduce the needed morale. Choose my dupes based on the combination of learning + interest until I have my pre-choosen set of specialists.

4 hours ago, Skrivener said:

pipe emptying is pointless

Maybe you wont use it so much, but the +2 strength translates in 200kg carry capacity which you cannot train otherwise. This makes it quite valuable for my delivery boys.

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Skrivener    124
49 minutes ago, habuky said:

Maybe you wont use it so much, but the +2 strength translates in 200kg carry capacity which you cannot train otherwise. This makes it quite valuable for my delivery boys.

Except you're far better off using those points on Supply instead.

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Gus Smedstad    290
18 minutes ago, Skrivener said:

Except you're far better off using those points on Supply instead.

I think the unstated assumption was that you'd already gotten the 2 skill points in Supply before getting Tidy skills for the +2 strength and +200 kg. I know that's how I do it.

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Skrivener    124
3 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I think the unstated assumption was that you'd already gotten the 2 skill points in Supply before getting Tidy skills for the +2 strength and +200 kg. I know that's how I do it.

There's still little point I think. It's better to push up into exosuit (much more useful to have) and get the Athletics, then put into Research which increases Learning which increases everything else. Pretty soon you're working on automation and your dupes' carrying capacity (already big without Tidy) will matter less anyway. I'm having no trouble ignoring Tidy, maybe try it yourself and see?

(Edit: I recently changed from the approach you have used.)

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Gus Smedstad    290
2 hours ago, Skrivener said:

There's still little point I think.

I don't agree.

I've already explained why it's useful to have at least one Dupe with pipe emptying.

For the more general case, where you're taking it for the carrying capacity boost, compared to Learning it's a boost now rather than later. 1000 kg -> 1400 kg is still a 40% increase. I won't necessarily make it a priority for everyone, but for Dupes that tend to spend most of their time carrying material, it increases their value by 40-50%. For example, a Dupe tasked with building an insulated pipe (common) can carry 3 tiles of materials instead of 2, which means far fewer trips to fetch material.

By "automation" I assume you mean transport rails, and those really have almost no bearing on how useful carry weight is. Oh, sure, it saves a certain amount of routine transport, but it doesn't have any effect on construction hauling or carrying away debris, which are the vast majority of your hauling errands.

You say you're having "little trouble ignoring Tidy," but all that means is that you haven't really thought it through or done a real comparison. It's not going to break your colony if you ignore it, of course, but dismissing it as being of no value is not a proper assessment either.

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habuky    43
3 hours ago, Skrivener said:

There's still little point I think. It's better to push up into exosuit (much more useful to have) and get the Athletics, then put into Research which increases Learning which increases everything else. Pretty soon you're working on automation and your dupes' carrying capacity (already big without Tidy) will matter less anyway. I'm having no trouble ignoring Tidy, maybe try it yourself and see?

Well generally you are right. However with the new skill system it is so easy to reach a skill level 3. You just need to wait to get 3 skill points. That's it. If you then specialise you dupes it's again very easy to give each +3 in supply for exosuits and the relevant skill point for the respective job. Afterwards all points can be spent in Research (or tidying the the delivery boys). Currently my problem is having rather too much skill points left, that than to wait to level up as before.

At cycle 50 everybody (n=12) was on exosuit in my base. 

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OxCD    331
9 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I think the unstated assumption was that you'd already gotten the 2 skill points in Supply before getting Tidy skills for the +2 strength and +200 kg. I know that's how I do it.

Hem, excuse me, one question ? Supply skill is noticing +2 strength AND +200kg capacity, while Tidy skill is only noticing +2 strength. Does it also bring +200kg to the carrying capacity ? If no, that could mean that strength is different from carrying capacity, which I didn't know. What would be the difference then ? 

Thanks all :) (sorry if a bit off-topic ! Just this comment remember me this question)

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JackOverkill    20
18 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I'd say that in the long term, attribute gains are more important than skill gains, and thus learning is still a very valuable skill. Skill points are limited by morale, but there's no cap on attribute gains.

Oh, and as an aside, it's annoying that we now have a terminology issue. Things like "Construction" are labeled "skills," and sound like what you would call a skill, but they're attributes, not skills.

have you test that how much faster a dup with high learning will gain attribute than a dupe with 0 learning ? there are so many variations answer about this matter , its really confusing

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JohnFrancis    347
On 4/29/2019 at 4:55 PM, Lacost said:

There are also the 2 bugged attributes that can not be increased by working which are cooking and ranching.

It would appear ranching can be leveled, one of my dupes has done so. I believe it was the egg hugging that did it. (Grooming definitely does nothing) It is incredibly slow to level as egg hugging is not a long duration task and only happens once a cycle per incubator.

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Skrivener    124
13 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

You say you're having "little trouble ignoring Tidy," but all that means is that you haven't really thought it through or done a real comparison. It's not going to break your colony if you ignore it, of course, but dismissing it as being of no value is not a proper assessment either.

 

12 hours ago, habuky said:

Currently my problem is having rather too much skill points left, that than to wait to level up as before.

(Aside from "useful to have pipe emptying on one dupe," which I must have missed, sorry - would you mind restating why, Gus, that is useful when you can build pipe bridges to siphon around work zones or empty them?) I feel I need to clarify what my point is.

I'm not arguing that if you are swimming in skill points you can't spend them wherever you want, nor that mathematically there isn't some fractional benefit to carrying capacity, but I am arguing that it's largely irrelevant. If a branch of a skill tree in a game is practically, if not technically, pointless then it has no reason to be there. Do I want to get rid of it? No. I want it to have a reason to exist beyond "well I've got a bunch of skill points so I need something to spend it on." I'm coming at it from a game design perspective is all. The Tidy and Construction skill tracks can more or less be ignored. I would like to see this change, not by removing them but by making them more relevant.

And yes, once I have conveyors going my dupes don't need to carry nearly as much around so Strength matters less than Athletics. By that time I no longer have toilets to clean so cleaning speed (Strength) is irrelevant. I don't see a huge point at that time in having 3 tonne vs 2 tonne carrying capacity as it's rarely actually used.

11 hours ago, OxCD said:

Hem, excuse me, one question ? Supply skill is noticing +2 strength AND +200kg capacity, while Tidy skill is only noticing +2 strength. Does it also bring +200kg to the carrying capacity ? If no, that could mean that strength is different from carrying capacity, which I didn't know. What would be the difference then ? 

Thanks all :) (sorry if a bit off-topic ! Just this comment remember me this question)

My understanding is that Strength contributes to Carrying Capacity directly, so you would gain both the Strength benefit and the additional bonus. Strength is also supposed to affect speed of cleaning tasks such as Mop and emptying toilets. Maybe it should affect fabrication tasks too, it looks like you have to hit the rock crusher button pretty hard :D

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