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CrixOMix

Switches Shouldn't Require Dupe Interaction

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CrixOMix    10

Title. I think it's pretty clear that we can accomplish the same effect with a simple temp sensor with the temperature set to the max 9999 degrees, you can just hit above/below to turn it on or off. 

So my confusion is why the switches require dupe interaction? They should just switch when we click it on or off. I could understand the power switch not being "automated" until you unlock automation. But it's silly that literally every automation sensor can be manually controlled except the one thing that makes the MOST sense to be manually controllable! Let us just turn stuff on or off with the click of a button (officially)

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beowulf2010    424

I agree that it doesn't make much sense that most automation can be set without dupe interaction, but I disagree on making everything player modifiable. 

With all doors and valves already requiring dupe interaction like the switch, I'd rather see all automation go the dupe route. 

I'm undecided on if smart batteries and the various storage type bins should need dupe interaction though. Probably should from a consistency standpoint... 

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beowulf2010    424
5 minutes ago, FiannaTiger said:

if all automation goes the dupe route, then how would it be automation??

Setting the automation's values is identical, to me, to setting a door or valve's controls. It makes way more sense for a Dupe to run up to the atmo sensor and set it to above 1,000g than for it to magically set itself based on direct user input. 

And you can always use Debug (Ctrl-F4 version) to force instant changes just like valves and doors. 

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bmilohill    138

Part of this is originally dupe operated switches was all we had, the automation update came later. So now switches are the forgotten older tech. 

I think they are perfect as is with dupe interaction required - but I think their role as a stepping stone towards automation would make more sense if they came much earlier in research and/or automated switches came much later. 

My main balancing gripe is everything is too easy to research. It's nice in that I can make a cookie cutter base the exact same no matter what map or dupes I roll - but that also shows that the game isn't hard if I am not having to make decisions based on the rng I got. I guess my point being in a really difficult mode where research cost closer to 5 times what it does now, then having switches that have the handicap of dupe operation but come in the early game would make them far more useful than the are now

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JohnFrancis    347
2 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

It makes way more sense for a Dupe to run up to the atmo sensor and set it to above 1,000g than for it to magically set itself based on direct user input.

You are a monster, you want me to send my dupes into magma to change that thermo sensor :) But in all seriousness it would make some of the more complicated contraptions a nightmare. Forget one setting you have to crack open that vacuum room to change it. It would also punish all players who only build in survival and discourage more exotic builds and experimentation in my opinion. I would lean more towards making all the automation respond instantly to player interaction. Though I'm not adverse to making it an optional setting.

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OxCD    329
8 hours ago, JohnFrancis said:

It would also punish all players who only build in survival and discourage more exotic builds and experimentation in my opinion. 

I totally agree, coz I'm fully concerned :)

 

EDIT : but however I agree about the manual switch. It doesn't make any sense now. An idea : why do not make this switch automatically usable by dups ? (Because it could involve too big algorithm around dups interaction, added to pathfinding. I could accepte this one unfortunately). In this way dups can for exemple enable a remote conveyor that bring the lunch from the CO2/Chlorine storage into the dining room ? For exemple.

But I agree, should be reeeeeally hard to implement.

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beowulf2010    424
2 hours ago, JohnFrancis said:

You are a monster, you want me to send my dupes into magma to change that thermo sensor :) But in all seriousness it would make some of the more complicated contraptions a nightmare. Forget one setting you have to crack open that vacuum room to change it. It would also punish all players who only build in survival and discourage more exotic builds and experimentation in my opinion. I would lean more towards making all the automation respond instantly to player interaction. Though I'm not adverse to making it an optional setting.

Very true. I'm must admit that though I think Dupes should have to modify all settings, I'm not going to actively campaign for it. As long as it's a little more consistent, I honestly don't care which way they choose to go. 

My main issue is the inconsistency between valves and atmo/piquid/temperature sensors. These should be the same. 

This being said, it'd be "fun" to have to leave yourself Dupe access in all builds. (Evil grin) 

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brucemo    17

It's ridiculous that some of it requires dupe interaction and some doesn't, especially when in some cases the effect is the same.

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pacovf    402

While the odds of it ever happening outside a mod are basically 0, this makes me wish ONI had a logic network that worked like Factorio's. That is, the network would potentially carry more than just 1 or 0, but could carry any number. Then we could have a setup where the thermal sensor is separate from the control panel. Think:

[thermal sensor] - - - \

                                   |  - - - - [Comparator] - - - - [Machine]

[control panel] - - - - /

 

The thermal sensor would send a signal with the temperature, the control panel (outside whatever dangerous medium the thermal sensor is in) could be set to any number via dupe, the comparator would output 1 or 0 depending on which one is larger, and pass along to the machine that needs to be turned on / off.

Of course, this is just a simple application of a more advanced logic network. We would be able to do much crazier stuff with it.

 

(Unrelated, anybody else wish we had an electric current sensor?)

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Nightinggale    949

I would be sorry to see the requirements for dupes increase in automation. It would greatly conflict with the concept of having a base with just a few dupes and lots of automation, which is actually a feasible strategy as it is right now. While I get what you are saying, one thing to keep in mind with sandbox games or sandbox like games is that the game shouldn't tell how the player should play. The gameplay is mostly that the player is free to do all sorts of different stuff, often stuff the game creators didn't consider.

 

9 hours ago, pacovf said:

this makes me wish ONI had a logic network that worked like Factorio's. That is, the network would potentially carry more than just 1 or 0, but could carry any number.

I kind of suspect that ONI has that. Writing to a logic output takes an int argument, but all what is written are 0s or 1s. When multiple outputs are connected, it's entirely possible that they add the numbers because multiple outputs to the same wire works like an or statement as in it's on if at least one output is on. Maybe it's reusing code from the power grid, which also adds up all the output values. This means it's not impossible to imagine a mod, which allows two sensors and then trigger when the difference in readings are greater than X. Imagine something like two liquids used for cooling and an automation system, which always picks the coldest regardless of absolute temperatures, only relative. However doing interesting stuff like this will require digging deep into the code to tell if it's possible or not. All I have so far are indications, but not proof.

 

Speaking of merging outputs, you can use this to reduce the size of the signal handling. Say we have 3 sensors: A, B, C.

Connecting all 3 gives A or B or C

Connecting all 3 and then pass that signal through an inverter gate gives: (not A) and (not B) and (not C). Now if you flip the sensors, like setting below instead of over, then you get rid of the not, meaning you end up with A or B or C.

Those two can be combined as in the output of the inverter works in a row of OR signals.

If you figure out how to control this, then you can greatly reduce the size of automation equipment and lower the need for gates, hence using less refined metal. It has drawbacks though as one sensor can only be used for one thing. You can't put up one liquid sensor and use the same output in two different calculations. You do need gates for that. A splitter gate (one input, two outputs and outputs are the same as input) could be useful for this purpose.

I don't consider this cheating. It's no different than other setups using game mechanics, like using a metal refinery to cook crude oil into petroleum. There are obvious ways to use the game mechanics and then there are less obvious discovered by people thinking hard about issues as well as trial and error.

 

12 hours ago, pacovf said:

(Unrelated, anybody else wish we had an electric current sensor?)

I have been thinking about something like that and I would really want to add one. However I need to finish my current mods and release those before taking on more tasks.

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SamLogan    771

Switch still usefull as to shuff off a infinite loop like the doors compressors. But yes, we can use others to do this.

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LordAmon    0

YES PLEASE make switch works without dupe interaction (or at least make player decide at start as an option).

Same for valve too

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beowulf2010    424
20 minutes ago, LordAmon said:

YES PLEASE make switch works without dupe interaction (or at least make player decide at start as an option).

Same for valve too

Honestly, I doubt they will. They actually changed valves and doors to require dupe interaction a number of updates ago. (Before space was introduced maybe?) 

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Stoned    5
On 27.4.2019 at 12:08 PM, beowulf2010 said:

Honestly, I doubt they will. They actually changed valves and doors to require dupe interaction a number of updates ago. (Before space was introduced maybe?) 

I remember this, it was horrible because they forgot to give them priorities. Neckbreaking at that point for my ancient base.

I always feel like cheating when using sensors iso switches. But playing 100% survival, I think it is the only way to build a prototype and check the necessary switching before finishing the automation of a complex machine.

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Chaoticlusts    30

Oddly even if they did become automatic I'd still use the temperature/pressure gauges, as I imagine many others would.  Basically why build a switch when you can build a switch with added functionality :)

I guess if they made them automatic and use cheaper/fewer resources than the gauges it'd give them appeal in the early-midgame

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Craigjw    263

This has been discussed before, including by myself.

I still cant' believe that switches aren't player controlled.  At the same time, I would despair if sensors became dupe only controlled.

Perhaps we could have an additional automatic switch added, later in the tech tree.  Although, I doubt that the devs would consider this, what with the development being close-ish to release.

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fox_kirya    24

That situation, when it'd be way much better, if a question would have stayed un-asked. XD As some people already said, it's not strange a switch has to be dupe-operated; it's strange that sensors can be player-adjusted. And when such a question is being asked, devs may change a way of adjusting sensors to dupe-operated. "Nah, switches are ok, but sensors are not. Let's fix it". =)

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Skrivener    122

If it were to become all dupe operated it would at least make sense, but I don't think that's going to happen because it's a PITA for players when building and testing complex machines, and because we have to acknowledge the dupes are not as smart as the engineers we would have performing such tasks IRL. So, I think it would be best to remove the dupe interaction from the few that require it, especially switches (no one uses these at all surely), but also valves. I think filters used to require dupe interaction and it was removed, or am I misremembering?

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beowulf2010    424
1 minute ago, Skrivener said:

 I think filters used to require dupe interaction and it was removed, or am I misremembering?

Pretty sure you're misremembering. Only changes I know of were when they added dupe interaction to valves and doors. 

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Craigjw    263

I don't see the problem with sensors being player controlled.  I personally would relish valves to be player controlled, as this would prevent many of my things from blowing up at critical stages, ultimately leading to frustration and anger, but you want more of this?  I don't understand.

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Sasza22    2,040

How about we get a checkbox on world creation where we can set sensors to player controlled or dupe controlled. Then it would make sense for switches to be dupe operated as they are designed to be dupe operated while sensors could be either.

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Craigjw    263

Some settings for these things wouldn't go a miss.

I would personally have switches and sensors all set to player controlled.  If forced into a position where these were all dupe controlled, I think that I would just press uninstall.

On reflection, valves in my opinion don't really fall into automation, so I'm ok with how these are now.  Switches though, are just a waste of space at the moment.

 

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beowulf2010    424
2 hours ago, Craigjw said:

I don't see the problem with sensors being player controlled.  I personally would relish valves to be player controlled, as this would prevent many of my things from blowing up at critical stages, ultimately leading to frustration and anger, but you want more of this?  I don't understand.

It's not that I want it, but that it makes sense that the dupes have to set the sensors. 

If dupes have to flick a switch, set a door's permissions, stand on a floor switch or make a change to the flow rate on a valve, the why would sensors magically set themselves? 

How's this for a middle ground. All sensors, valves, doors, switches, etc have to be dupe set for consistency's. But, there is a new building that takes plastic and refined metal that costs at least 800W called an Automation Control Console that removes the need for dupe interaction, just like turning on debug mode. 

All in all, it needs to be consistent. 

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