A Proper Discussion of Willow's Rework, and why it has no Impact Whatsoever

[seffard]

3 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

The fourth perk: Why? Why no fire immunity? Why is that just too much to ask for? It's something I don't think I've ever heard someone say they have an issue with. Willow having fire immunity in no way increases griefing, and besides they shouldn't be balancing a character around griefing to begin with!

Why? Isnt your video enough answer for your own doubt, which is not about griefing as well? If you could kill a boss like that, why would you even have a boss in the first place? "(although it imo would be perfect) all I'm arguing is that it's what made her fun" you may have your fun by cheating if you like things that easy, just type on console: c_give('whatever').

3 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

The fifth perk: This no damage already was a thing, and was about as helpful as it sounds. Faster extinguish is absolutely useless unless you decided to run summer with no flingos for no reason. So this perk is a total wash.

It's not useless. It depends where you set up your base and your play style. If the base is near moon stone or another forest and you survive winter and summer avoiding wild fires, for example.

3 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

The fuel perk is negated because Maxwell exists, I'm sorry but it's true. When adding character perks it's important to consider whether or not another character already solves the problem (which isn't even a real problem except maybe to beginners). So this perk only maybe helps newer players.

Not every server has a Maxwell and people may play solo or build their own bases alone as well.

3 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Bernie being equipped for Sanity and Warmth is cool and all but beefalo hats exist and Willow is a sanity tank thanks to her fire regen. I could see this perk maybe occasionally helping for very specific situations, overall not really game changing.

Not everyone uses clothes for winter. I only use one vanilla thermal stone and this might be interesting if Bernie warms her faster with other fire sources.

 

Maybe the rework is gonna be fun and you are not giving yourself a chance to play in a different fun way.

[Trenix]

2 hours ago, Siorm said:

This. I mean .. you could play Wickerbottom and fill the base with tentacles and spam The End is Nigh. Or play Woodie and eat all the chests. There's a lot of grief potential that's just not a Willow thing.

Also i really hope that Bernie changes mean a future buff to insanity.

Those characters need clear nerfs. Wickerbottom is gamebreaking.

[Canis]

25 minutes ago, Trenix said:

I agree with none of what you said. Also outside of fire immunity, you've suggested nothing either. Fire immunity seems overpowered and makes Willow once again a tool for griefing. You also talk about skilled players and say how all of this only benefits or hurts new players, but a skilled player doesn't need any real advantage to survive and thrive. This is what we got, not included the current and remaining perks...

• Willow is stronger is summer.
• Willow is weaker in winter.
• Willow is immune and takes less damage from fire.
• Willow is a firefighter (cooperative benefit).
• Willow requires less fuel for a campfire (cooperative benefit).
• Willow can use Bernie to keep her warm and sane to combat her weakness.
• Bernie now beats up monsters when Willow is near (cooperative benefit).

I am really excited for these benefits and so is my wife. It's pretty cool to have an actual person who's in charge of keeping the fire lit, taking out fires, and protecting us from shadows. Why you think this is bad is beyond me. Another thing to note, it seems like no matter what the developers do with the characters, majority remain unhappy, though they can't come up with anything better besides "make her like in Don't Starve, the original!" Despite this being a multiplayer game where there has to be actual balance.

One simple question:
Can you explain in detail on why Fire Immunity is overpowered?

[Trenix]

Just now, Canis said:

One simple question:
Can you explain in detail on why Fire Immunity is overpowered?

Because you're not just negating damage, you're completely canceling it out. You can set everything ablaze with no penalty, instead you actually get a sanity boost for doing it. You can wipe loads of mobs, by trapping them in a forest and lighting it up. Also because you're immune to fires, you could stop fires from burning up your base with no damage at any point. I'm ok with temporary immunity, but not straight up immunity.

[Canis]

3 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Because you're not just negating damage, you're completely canceling it out. You can set everything ablaze with no penalty, instead you actually get a sanity boost for doing it. You can wipe loads of mobs, by trapping them in a forest and lighting it up. Also because you're immune to fires, you could stop fires from burning up your base with no damage at any point. I'm ok with temporary immunity, but not straight up immunity.

"You can wipe loads of mobs, by trapping them in a forest and lighting it up"

You can do this with any character. Fire Immunity would just mean that you're able to stand in said fire, and I guess attack them while they're panicking? I don't see the problem.

 

"You could stop fires from burning up your base with no damage at any point."

You can already do this in-game as Willow's damage resistance makes her take 0 damage when extinguishing something that's smoldering. (Edit: This would also be the case with temporary Immunity so I don't see how this is even something to bring up in the first place)

 

I still don't see how Fire Immunity is OP.

[Mr.Mulk]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Trenix said:

I agree with none of what you said. Also outside of fire immunity, you've suggested nothing either. Fire immunity seems overpowered and makes Willow once again a tool for griefing. You also talk about skilled players and say how all of this only benefits or hurts new players, but a skilled player doesn't need any real advantage to survive and thrive. This is what we got, not included the current and remaining perks...

• Willow is stronger is summer.
• Willow is weaker in winter.
• Willow is immune and takes less damage from fire.
• Willow is a firefighter (cooperative benefit).
• Willow requires less fuel for a campfire (cooperative benefit).
• Willow can use Bernie to keep her warm and sane to combat her weakness.
• Bernie now beats up monsters when Willow is near (cooperative benefit).

I am really excited for these benefits and so is my wife. It's pretty cool to have an actual person who's in charge of keeping the fire lit, taking out fires, and protecting us from shadows. Why you think this is bad is beyond me. Another thing to note, it seems like no matter what the developers do with the characters, majority remain unhappy, though they can't come up with anything better besides "make her like in Don't Starve, the original!" Despite this being a multiplayer game where there has to be actual balance.

 

Foremost it's not my job to make suggestions, however I'm more than happy to put my input in if you like.

Fire immunity is not overpowered and if you think it is then you must be appalled by the entire existence of Wolfgang, Wicker, and WX

It doesn't effect griefing at all as anyone can make a torch and just not stand in the fire, so that point falls flat. Also last time they balanced characters around griefing it didn't go so hot.

None of the perks actually matter to a skilled player, and yes I'm aware that applies to a lot of characters, however I never said that's a good thing, in fact quite the opposite. What I'm saying actually is that Willow's perks should impact all levels of skill and all points in a playthrough.

I'm glad you're excited but it's apparent to me (and obviously a lot of other people) that these perks have no real impact in the long run (or the short run), at least not most likely unless they go full Wheeler with Willow.

 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, seffard said:

Why? Isnt your video enough answer for your own doubt, which is not about griefing as well? If you could kill a boss like that, why would you even have a boss in the first place? "(although it imo would be perfect) all I'm arguing is that it's what made her fun" you may have your fun by cheating if you like things that easy, just type on console: c_give('whatever').

It's not useless. It depends where you set up your base and your play style. If the base is near moon stone or another forest and you survive winter and summer avoiding wild fires, for example.

Not every server has a Maxwell and people may play solo or build their own bases alone as well.

Not everyone uses clothes for winter. I only use one vanilla thermal stone and this might be interesting if Bernie warms her faster with other fire sources.

 

Maybe the rework is gonna be fun and you are not giving yourself a chance to play in a different fun way.

 

My discussion was never about griefing beyond that it's dumb to balance characters around griefing, not sure where that's coming from.

Also the only people who think Inventory Burning would be primarily used for griefing don't seem to understand I've stated I'd want it adjusted for multiplayer (ie dps capped and likely no ignition radius). They've also clearly never used it before, it never works out quite like the video, at least not until the endgame.

And yeah no the extinguish thing was useless, considering half of the perk has already existed and literally no one has brought it up before.

As far as solo play goes fun fact you can now change character (which most experienced players do now) so the "no maxwell" argument doesn't work. And regardless it's solving a nonissue, fuel is never hard to get.

Not using clothes for winter? I get that there's different playstyles but even without clothes winter is still laughably easy, so yeah that downside doesn't matter still.

To your last point, sure, maybe it'll somehow magically work out, however I'm speaking from 1700 hours and multiple years of playing both games, I can usually tell when a rebalance idea is good or bad.

[SouthTom]

18 minutes ago, Trenix said:

You can wipe loads of mobs, by trapping them in a forest and lighting it up.

But you're already penalized for burning mobs by burning the loot they're dropping too.

[X-lem]

Can you explain why the existence of Maxwell negates her one fire perk?

[Mr.Mulk]

15 minutes ago, X-lem said:

Can you explain why the existence of Maxwell negates her one fire perk?

Sure, a key component of properly balancing characters in a multiplayer game is considerations of how well the characters complete similar tasks. As it stands, maxwell is an incredible fuel supplier, able to level forests in matters of minutes, providing fuel for in game years, regardless of if the player has a fuel bonus or not. What this means is that willow's fuel balance won't matter most likely when I have 9 chests filled with each 9 stacks of 40 logs from swapping out to maxwell. I would guess any intermediate and above player in terms of skill could complete this task without issue, making the perk useless entirely for them. And even for the beginners usually fuel isn't too much of a challenge (even without a maxwell) meaning the perk solves a nonissue.
 

Oh also I took some time to write up my considerations for what I'd consider a good rework for Willow, as I was charged to do so.
Disclaimer that this is my opinion, however it is based on significant experience and research of the game as well as the character.

• Remove all the unnecessary minor perks/downsides that don't really have an impact on gameplay
• Keep the Bernie Buff, I'm actually not opposed to that piece necessarily
• Make Willow more like her Don't Starve form, with some key tweaks
  • Infinite Lighter (Klei can keep or remove the cooking I don't really mind either way)
    • If lighter lag is a concern give it durability but make it only lose durability when held by other characters
  • Fire Immunity
  • No insanity fires, I'm alright with those being removed because I understand the issues on pubs with newer players this could cause
  • Some form of Inventory Burning being added, I'm completely ok with it being altered to be more fitting for a multiplayer environment (aka no ignition, perhaps a dps cap, doesn't work in pvp, etc.)
  • Obviously retaining the sanity bonus from fires

The most challenging piece of this would be coming up with an appreciable downside, however I think this is a completely valid starting point for Klei to work from, and there's definitely options for exploration from this point.

[SouthTom]

Also if the only good perk of Willow is Bernie, what prevents me to switch to her to get a Bernie and switch back and keep Bernie? Right now everyone can get a Bernie.

[Trenix]

1 hour ago, Canis said:

I still don't see how Fire Immunity is OP.

Fire immunity is so insignificant that you all demand it. Makes a lot of sense.

[GenomeSquirrel]

14 minutes ago, SouthTom said:

Also if the only good perk of Willow is Bernie, what prevents me to switch to her to get a Bernie and switch back and keep Bernie? Right now everyone can get a Bernie.

Bernie only attacks if Willow is insane and close, otherwise he's just a meatshield for insanity creatures

[Canis]

9 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Fire immunity is so insignificant that you all demand it. Makes a lot of sense.

Here's the actual reason why we want it: (Keep in mind that at this is at least the third time I have said this, and I haven't had anyone provide a valid counterargument without just saying "no its OP" without giving a reason why)

 

-It allows the use of a stun mechanic in combat, which is a niche that no other characters fill.

I actually tested this in game. If you set something on fire, and hold ctrl f while it's on fire, it will stand in place (unless its *really* fast) and take all of your hits without hitting you back. It's not really OP since bosses can attack while on fire, and also that there are a plethora of easier ways to deal with mobs anyway that are much more OP.

 

-Sanity Gain

Right now, sanity gain from fire is very very minimal and practically unnoticeable for Willow because you basically have to stand *in* the fire to get any noticeable effect to sanity. However, without Immunity, you can't do this, sooooo...

Also you can complain that she gets a stupid amount of HP when you drop multiple items on the ground around her, but the amount of sanity gained per item can be nerfed to counteract this. Not to mention the fact that Sanity is a topic all by itself (considering the fact that a lot of people want to be *IN*sane.).

 

 

Do you have any other points?

[Trenix]

7 minutes ago, Canis said:

Do you have any other points?

You just proved how its overpowered. Thanks.

[CactusCompanion]

I have no strong standings on this issue

but I am excited for big boye bernie

[GuyNamedChris]

3 minutes ago, Trenix said:

You just proved how its overpowered. Thanks.

Is it overpowered or is it insignificant? Pick one.

[Mr.Mulk]

3 minutes ago, Trenix said:

You just proved how its overpowered. Thanks.

Again you must be absolutely appalled by the game's other characters if you think a fire immunity is OP

[Trenix]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Again you must be absolutely appalled by the game's other characters if you think a fire immunity is OP

Some characters are overpowered, others are underpowered. I assume the developers will rightfully nerf the ones that make the game ez-mode. Would you rather have them all overpowered? All we'd have left is a boring social game then.

[Mr.Mulk]

2 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Some characters are overpowered, others are underpowered. I assume the developers will rightfully nerf the ones that make the game ez-mode. Would you rather have them all overpowered? All we'd have left is a boring social game then.

I'd rather have them all overpowered than half the cast be awful and the other half be OP. There's a reason people play the meta, because it's fun.
And again, Fire Immunity is hardly describable as being OP (actually it's not OP in the slightest) on the same scale as Wolfgang, Wicker, or WX

[Trenix]

6 minutes ago, Chris1448 said:

Is it overpowered or is it insignificant? Pick one.

I guess you're new to sarcasm. I dont believe fire immunity is insignificant, everyone else does.

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I'd rather have them all overpowered than half the cast be awful and the other half be OP. There's a reason people play the meta, because it's fun.
And again, Fire Immunity is hardly describable as being OP (actually it's not OP in the slightest) on the same scale as Wolfgang, Wicker, or WX

Well then it's good that you're not in charge of balancing the game. You buff the underpowered characters first and then nerf the overpowered. I'm sure they worked on Willow much sooner than others because you guys kept crying about her since day one. The truth is that you still won't be pleased until you have vanilla DS, because you have no regard of multiplayer balance.

[GetNerfedOn]

My concern here is that fire immunity would allow players to outright kill other players on PvE servers by lighting their inventories on fire and standing next to other people.

 

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, GetNerfedOn said:

My concern here is that fire immunity would allow players to kill other players on PvE servers by lighting their inventories on fire ans standing next to other people.

 

Have it be disabled in PVP, then.

Like how the sleep sack works, but reverse.

[h2mk]

My concern here is that fire immunity isn't even useful in practice and it barely matters whether or not it is in game.

[Trenix]

1 minute ago, Hatano Eichero said:

My concern here is that fire immunity isn't even useful in practice and it barely matters whether or not it is in game.

But yet that's the main thing people want. Also there is a stun with fire, which it seems to give you more hits on a mob. It's no wonder why everyone wants to exploit for their own gain

[Mr.Mulk]

4 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Well then it's good that you're not in charge of balancing the game. You buff the underpowered characters first and then nerf the overpowered. I'm sure they worked on Willow much sooner than others because you guys kept crying about her since day one. The truth is that you still won't be pleased until you have vanilla DS, because you have no regard of multiplayer balance.

Well that seems a bit nasty to say, I have plenty of experience and knowledge about the games, and I'm merely drawing upon those to form an opinion. And I'm going to voice that opinion, which I wouldn't call "crying." If anyone is "crying" it's you attempting to make a clearly flawed argument that Fire Immunity is OP, which is just simply wrong.

Also I'm not suggesting buffing weak characters to be OP with no regard for downsides as the ideal, merely that it's better than the alternative of poor characters.

And I said I wanted Willow to be more DS like, I actually don't want them to just take DS Willow and plop her into the game.

I would appreciate it if you actually read what I said.
 

Also I suggested no nerfs for the overpowered, again I'm not sure where you're gathering this information from.