Sense of future for too-clever systems?

[simonchvz]

Edit:  This thread has rather foreseeably outlived its usefullness, so it's probably best to leave it be rather than continue to engage.  Many thanks to the people who lent the rest of us their sense of how we can anticipate these systems working in the near-term, and for the de-escalators.  There are some good responses for other inconsistent players like me, especially on the first page.

 

 This topic may be at risk of devolving into everyone's least-favorite argument, so please be forgiving.  There are a number of clever systems the community has created and some basic game systems that sit in the grey area between genius solution/exploit/candidate for dramatic rebalancing.  When release hits, it'll be nice to know what's expected to be changed or not so those of us that are on-again, off-again players can settle down into building an awesome base and not worry about it being unusable when we come back. Are my expectations mostly in line with the core community on using these?  Obviously dev input is unexpected but welcome =)  

• Battery switching power distribution - Probably pretty safe to use for the medium term at least
• Matter doubling - I'm not counting on this being around for long
• Matter converting - No real idea, since it seems like it might sit at that point where the solution might be so complex and dev-intensive that it's just left alone
• PW offgassing as a primary O2 source - I'm guessing this will remain reliable, since electrolyzers are a low-complexity rival and have a unique niche with H2 production
• Wild plant scavenging - Seems like a low-priority candidate for rebalancing?
• SHC manipulation - Seems like a low-priority candidate for rebalancing?
• Fixed-temp outputs (primarily the Water Sieve) - My expectation is that some fixed outputs remain, but the WS in particular becomes input-dependent
• Low-temp printables - I expect this to stay
• Everything weird about mesh tiles in space - Giant shrug
• Fixed-temp construction - I expect this to stay

Am I wildly off on any of these?  Thanks

[mathmanican]

That's pretty much where I sit on each topic, though I may have a few more "Giant Shrugs."

1 hour ago, simonchvz said:

Matter doubling - I'm not counting on this being around for long

I really hope they can crack this one.  It keeps showing up in all kinds of places on the forums, reddit, etc.  

1 hour ago, simonchvz said:

Matter converting - No real idea, since it seems like it might sit at that point where the solution might be so complex and dev-intensive that it's just left alone

Fixing it may be tough. If they don't fix it, then people are going to assume that steam geyser can be turned into hydrogen geysers by adding a little hydrogen, only to find out on their next base that it doesn't work anymore (as the conditions for making it happen are not always as simple as "just add some hydrogen"). Or there's my favorite: "My dupe farted by the water supply, and now the water supply is a NG geyser."  

[simonchvz]

48 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

That's pretty much where I sit on each topic, though I may have a few more "Giant Shrugs."

I guess if I'm in the neighborhood of an upper-echelon game breaker, then I can't be too far off. 

51 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

My dupe farted by the water supply, and now the water supply is a NG geyser

Can we just make this the premise for a proto-Dupe-alien-invasion DLC?

[Troxism]

Most annoying thing about the matter conversion is it forces you to vacuum and then seal/liquid lock every single Cold Steam Geyser you use if you don't want it to eventually overpressurise or have reduced throughput.

As for fixed temp outputs, tbh with the addition of a powerful early game magical heat destroyer (Ice Machine) I was thinking they were going to patch them out, but apparently not, so idk.

For PW offgassing, I mean you can make oxygen for free by farming Morbs, which is arguably more 'OP' (not that people usually bother due to the amount you need plus hassle of disinfecting the air).

Fixed temp construction pretty much has to stay unless they add some way to control exactly what batch of material is used, or at least some way to filter materials in storage based on temperature so you can lock away/sort out the hot stuff in a convenient fashion.

Low temp printables don't really matter as unless you save scum like crazy to get specific ones (which isn't really intended gameplay anyways) the amount of free cooling from this is pretty low on average.

For SHC manip, the biggest example I can think of that people use regularly is regolith > magma. Not sure if it will ever get changed tbh as most people don't use it and it doesn't really come up 'by accident' very often.

 

[Denisetwin]

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

then people are going to assume that steam geyser can be turned into hydrogen geysers by adding a little hydrogen,

I'd like to see this please 

I know what you mean though, I do keep a bit of hydrogen in one because the cold slush geyser runs over the top of it and wanted a way to use that cold efficiently.  Hadn't noticed anything yet - but geez, been burned by this quite often.  It's my bad luck in the game, I never get oh my gas turned to hydrogen or something useful, it's always polluted oxygen when I've got oxygen everywhere already.....

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Troxism said:

you can make oxygen for free by farming Morbs, which is arguably more 'OP' (not that people usually bother due to the amount you need plus hassle of disinfecting the air).

With the new "floral scents" mechanics, detoxifying slimelung has been trivialized.  Morb farms, with a buddy bud plant nearby, may become the new meta.  

54 minutes ago, Denisetwin said:

I'd like to see this please 

 

 

 

 

I could go on and probably post 100 or more links, just on the forums, and then we could head to reddit and get another 100.  I'll stop. 

[Gus Smedstad]

Battery switching - there's nothing wrong with the root idea, the issue is that it ignores batteries when considering overloads, so a battery switch can draw 1000 kw over a 1kw wire. I've explored what they would have to do to fix it, and while I would do it, personally, I don't think they will.

Matter doubling, matter conversion - seriously needs to be fixed, likely to be fixed.

Fixed temp outputs - not going to change. The Water Sieve in particular is Working As Intended. They've said as much.

[pacovf]

56 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Fixed temp outputs - not going to change. The Water Sieve in particular is Working As Intended. They've said as much.

Wait, do you have a source for that? Last I heard, they were aware that it’s a hot topic for many people, and they were thinking about it.

[Gus Smedstad]

1 hour ago, pacovf said:

Wait, do you have a source for that? 

Actually, I don't. I'd read a post by someone else saying something to that effect, and I took that at face value. When someone says "the devs said this" and they've been on the board a lot longer than I have, I tend to just accept that they're telling the truth. So from me, at least, it's just hearsay.

The problem is that it's a fairly difficult thing to check via search. Water sieves and their fixed temperature output are such a common topic, often just in advice threads and not debating them, that finding an official post is pretty tough.

[beowulf2010]

As far as I'm concerned, water sieves and other fixed temperature output items are working as *originally* intended purely from the standpoint that they have existed unchanged since they were introduced. Back in the day, there weren't near as many ways to eliminate waste heat. No space, no/minimal geysers to supply hydrogen for AETNs, low quantities of Wheezeworts (I remember for a while I was seeing 25-30 Wheezeworts per map average for a long while), etc. This means there is no bug or exploit in using them. 

This being said, I wouldn't be against Klei looking at them and changing them if they so choose. 

I'm fine with how they are currently implemented and would also be fine if they wanted to change things, especially now that we have the current steam turbine to eat heat along with the AETN and Wheezeworts and even space to dump heat into with extra gasses from all the various geysers we now have. 

[mathmanican]

53 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

This being said, I wouldn't be against Klei looking at them and changing them if they so choose. 

With the modding community quite active, I see very little reason to make a change here. The mod that accomplishes this is already in Steam. If they get rid of fixed outputs, a mod can refix them.  At this point, this comes down to player preference, which is precisely what mods allow. So I'll put a "Big Shrug" on this one. 

[simonchvz]

4 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Battery switching - there's nothing wrong with the root idea, the issue is that it ignores batteries when considering overloads, so a battery switch can draw 1000 kw over a 1kw wire

This particular use is what I was thinking of.  It's my favorite example in this game of a solution to a problem (decor penalties and trunk-line resource cost) using a really clever and elegant approach in a way that clearly breaks the developers' intent.  I'm personally in favor of keeping it because the gameplay impact is pretty low and the aesthetic payoff to my OCD is miles high, but I'd understand if they implemented a solution similar to one you proposed.

2 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

I'm fine with how they are currently implemented and would also be fine if they wanted to change things, especially now that we have the current steam turbine to eat heat along with the AETN and Wheezeworts and even space

Pretty on board with this sentiment.  Before QOL3 I would have been surprised if they did, but with the new steam turbine slotting a lot more seamlessly into that role for the midgame it feels like there's suddenly more space to make these changes.

[Miravlix]

Not sure if this was included in the ops list.

 

If you transition GAS to liquid to solid then back again to liquid and GAS you can create insane amounts of the GAS.

 

I made an ICE machine and it was cool enough that the CO2 from a dupe breathing in the room, got frozen, but then new water was added and it melted creating a insane CO2 explosion, I had 30 KG pr. tile in a huge area, because it took me a while to notice.

[Yunru]

2 hours ago, Miravlix said:

Not sure if this was included in the ops list.

 

If you transition GAS to liquid to solid then back again to liquid and GAS you can create insane amounts of the GAS.

 

I made an ICE machine and it was cool enough that the CO2 from a dupe breathing in the room, got frozen, but then new water was added and it melted creating a insane CO2 explosion, I had 30 KG pr. tile in a huge area, because it took me a while to notice.

How can you not be sure? The list is public.

Also "matter duplication" is like the second thing on the list.

[Grimgaw]

11 hours ago, pacovf said:

Wait, do you have a source for that?

The source is in the code. The 40C is very much intentional. It's not a random number or some misplaced variable - someone put it there.

People have been uppity about it more or less since cold biomes got introduced, hence the devs acknowledging it. The push back against changes was always based on the fact that ONI literally throws hot stuff at you, and the only way of getting rid of it breaks the perception of how physics should behave in this game. (We have heat magically appear on the map, and only way of removing it is some other form of magic).

 

[pacovf]

44 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

The source is in the code. The 40C is very much intentional. It's not a random number or some misplaced variable - someone put it there.

People have been uppity about it more or less since cold biomes got introduced, hence the devs acknowledging it. The push back against changes was always based on the fact that ONI literally throws hot stuff at you, and the only way of getting rid of it breaks the perception of how physics should behave in this game. (We have heat magically appear on the map, and only way of removing it is some other form of magic).

 

You are answering a different question than the one I was obviously asking, in an unnecessarily confrontational tone. As for this other question you chose to answer, we had a discussion not so long ago about it. It went poorly, and the thread ended up locked. I prefer not to engage in it.

[Grimgaw]

I don't remember engaging you in any conversation, and I'm sorry that I answered wrong question - you didn't quite specify that by quoting two statements.

[Dracian]

• Battery switching power distribution
• Matter doubling
• Matter converting

I wasn't even aware of those. Damn, I need to hang more on the forums . Hoping it'll be fixed, just like

• Everything weird about mesh tiles in space

Though I wouldn't be surprised many people would disagree XD

 

• PW offgassing as a primary O2 source

Since it consumes PH²O, that seems balanced to me. I hope it'll stay that way

 

• Wild plant scavenging
• SHC manipulation
• Fixed-temp outputs (primarily the Water Sieve)
• Low-temp printables
• Fixed-temp construction

Not sure all those will be fixed someday. Just like the infinite Save/Load to get the printable you want...

[miauly]

One way to "fix" Save/Load would be to nerf Learning like suggested in another thread - remove attributes gain and replace it with exp gain (or just remove, or replace with something else). Getting 6 dupes as early as they can be printed makes a huge difference, and if Learning would not be so good, then 3 dupes most of the time would be enough to pick from.

[Gus Smedstad]

3 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

The source is in the code. The 40C is very much intentional. It's not a random number or some misplaced variable - someone put it there.

In this particular case, it seems likely that the designers intended the behavior of the water sieve, particularly since it's been discussed on the boards so often, and they pay attention.

However, you should avoid assuming that because there's a fixed number in the code, that's the intended design.

I used to be a programming lead at a game company. I had a couple of programmers who were very, very sloppy, and did things just because it was convenient without consulting me first.

Example 1: Programmer A implemented a map feature. He added a global (!) fixed size array (!!) to store data for copies of that feature. I learned about this when we had crashes when a map had over 40 of those items, and the array size was only 40. It was trivial to change the array to a variable sized array. Programmer A just never thought about the consequences of what he'd done, didn't warn anyone, and didn't know how to declare variable arrays.

Example 2: Programmer B was supposed to implement transferring units between armies. I specified that moving units should only limit the movement allowance of the target army, that the dialog should intelligently undo any movement loss if the player undid a move, and that the movement loss should depend on the units moved. Programmer B set both armies movement allowance to zero. Because it was easy. Fortunately he did tell me, and after he refused to fix it because it would "take too long," I ended up fixing it myself. It was about an hour's work.

The point being that you cannot deduce anything from the mere presence of a number in the code, because there's no guarantee that it's behaving as the designers intended. Some programmers frequently take shortcuts that are not part of the design. Not all programmers, but enough.

[pacovf]

I don’t even think you need to blame sloppiness. It could just be something that made sense at first, and that the devs haven’t had the time to revisit since then.

[Grimgaw]

1 minute ago, pacovf said:

I don’t even think you need to blame sloppiness. It could just be something that made sense at first, and that the devs haven’t had the time to revisit since then.

Sieve was in game since it's inception as are threads about fixed outputs. Devs had a chance to revisit it in just last update when they introduced revamped, fixed output steam turbine.

@Gus Smedstad Although I agree about code assumptions in terms of a company, however I disagree that you can't assume that a feature of a product is, in fact a feature. If you buy a red car, I don't think it's fair to assume that the manufacturer wanted to paint the car green but, somehow, didn't.

Herein lies the problem with Klei communication style - we (as consumers) don't know whether implementations are bugs or features. It bothers me that the only way to find out is to report them as bugs and find out if they get addressed. If they don't get addressed, are they features?

[Gus Smedstad]

7 minutes ago, pacovf said:

I don’t even think you need to blame sloppiness. It could just be something that made sense at first, and that the devs haven’t had the time to revisit since then.

I don't think sloppiness was the case for the water sieve either. I'm almost certain it the fixed 40 C output is by design, for reasons that made sense when the sieve was first implemented.  I was really talking about the more general case of the dangers of thinking "it's in the code, so it must be intentional."

BTW, I'm currently working through my first QOL 3 base, and the fixed temperature output of the sieve has been more of a curse than a blessing. With my first colony, I didn't know about it and didn't think about it. With this colony, I started sieving my polluted water, which was mostly at 25 C because I'm not very industrialized yet, and the 40 C output water heated up my base enough to cause crop failures.

I had to implement my first-ever aquatuner / sieve loop, which cools the output to 26 C and dumps the heat into the polluted water. Which isn't really an "exploit" since the output temperature ends up being around the same as the input prior to the combination. The aquatuner's pretty energy expensive when you're still relying on coal for electricity.

1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

 

@Gus Smedstad Although I agree about code assumptions in terms of a company, however I disagree that you can't assume that a feature of a product is, in fact a feature. If you buy a red car, I don't think it's fair to assume that the manufacturer wanted to paint the car green but, somehow, didn't.

That's not an analogy that works. A number in the code is not automatically a "feature," or proof of intent. It's a number.

To be absolutely clear, I'm talking about the general case, and the attempt to use "the number is in the code" as a proof that it's part of the intended design, rather than the specific case of the water sieve. I agree about the specific case of the water sieve. I'm warning that you shouldn't assume that a number is a feature in any other context just because the number exists.

[Grimgaw]

9 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

That's not an analogy that works. A number in the code is not automatically a "feature," or proof of intent. It's a number.

What if we had variable 'COLOUR_RED'. Would it be fair to assume that programmer wanted colour red? Would that be a better analogy? 

[simonchvz]

45 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Devs had a chance to revisit it in just last update when they introduced revamped, fixed output steam turbine.

My goal with this thread is to try to get a sense of what is likely to change in the near- and middle-future.  That chance to revisit it hasn't disappeared.  Similar to how the steam turbine worked the way it did for a long time until the devs changed it, same with drip-cooling mechanics much earlier, etc. I don't think anyone's disputing that it was and remains an intended mechanic right now. 

45 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I had to implement my first-ever aquatuner / sieve loop,

At risk of derailing my own thread - Have you considered a counterflow heat exchanger?  It requires a fair bit more space, but it's a really effective mechanic for swapping your input and output temps.  I think in a closed loop with a fixed output you'd still need to occasionally pulse some extra cooling in there, but it could cut your energy demands significantly.  Might even be doable with a wheeze in the exchange medium.