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QOL3 - New desease system


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I think one little change could make the new system work. Allow us to give cures to dupes who have been "exposed to slimelung" or give us a vaccine pill that protects them for 3 cycles. Leave everything else the same.

I think I see the developers intent with this change. They don't what you chewing into the slime biome in the first 20-30 cycles because slime lung was a non issue for a half seasoned player. If infection is contagious and only removable with cures you would need to tech up and implement a med bay and build some cures before you attempt it. Up until now the slime biome was just a cheap source of early game food via mushrooms.

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1 hour ago, JohnFrancis said:

They don't what you chewing into the slime biome in the first 20-30 cycles because slime lung was a non issue for a half seasoned player. If infection is contagious and only removable with cures you would need to tech up and implement a med bay and build some cures before you attempt it. Up until now the slime biome was just a cheap source of early game food via mushrooms.

As it stands you will catch slimelung almost immediately upon breaching the slime biome, so you're going to be popping pills like an addict for half the game. Even a tiny pocket of infected POx will soon have your entire colony sneezing and coughing and its very very hard to get rid of in its entirety. Basically this change completely reorders the progression tree, such that you can only enter the slime biome once you have exosuits or a massive balm lily farm. Even with the latter you are going to have difficulty preventing a sick dupe from sneezing and creating multiple puffs of POx which will proceed to poison your entire base. I'd happily enter the frozen or magma biomes at lower tech than the slime biome in the current patch.

Edit: Rather than forcing on us a continuous and never ending need to farm medication, perhaps we can introduce a version of the immune system that after a dupe is cured of slimelung prevents their re-infection for a number of cycles (not just 2 or 3, I'm thinking at least 10). This is somewhat realistic and will help reduce the likelihood of a slimelung death spiral.

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16 hours ago, Juicearific said:

But if the problem is that it wasn't intuitive for new players, I'd argue this one is so much worse. Nevermind being un-intuitive and hard to understand, it's also extremely unforgiving.

 

3 hours ago, chemie said:

There is an infinite circle here.  Dup gets sick, sneezes, the tiny amount of germs takes several cycles to die off, so the cured dup gets reinfected by his own germs.  Even putting dup in isolation room does not solve this.

I was planning on starting my second colony with the QOL III release, and now I'm wondering if that isn't a bad idea.

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4 hours ago, chemie said:

I do not think the developers play their game.  There is an infinite circle here.  Dup gets sick, sneezes, the tiny amount of germs takes several cycles to die off, so the cured dup gets reinfected by his own germs.  Even putting dup in isolation room does not solve this.  Add in more dups, and they can never recover because there is always tiny trace disease from sneezes always in the base air.

That's why you build a med bay where you can completely isolate a sick dupe.  The two times I intentionally got a dupe sick with slimelung, it was fairly easy to contain.  Give the newly exposed dupes a booster, send the sick dupe to sick bay... and everything cleaned up nicely.

1 hour ago, Giltirn said:

As it stands you will catch slimelung almost immediately upon breaching the slime biome, so you're going to be popping pills like an addict for half the game.

I've run three early bases since the QoL3 (both pre-release and after general release) and have mined out a slime biome (carefully).  I intentionally infected my dupes twice, but never accidentally infected them.  It is completely manageable without any medical research, though med research does make things a whole lot easier.

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9 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

That's why you build a med bay where you can completely isolate a sick dupe.  The two times I intentionally got a dupe sick with slimelung, it was fairly easy to contain.  Give the newly exposed dupes a booster, send the sick dupe to sick bay... and everything cleaned up nicely.

Perhaps I'm a moron (Translation: I am a moron), but how do you quarantine them now? Looking at it, slimelung can no longer be sent to the triage bed. I know you can run them into a room and then make the doors impassable for them, but then that cuts them off from reaching food. How do you transport food into the room for them?

If I could just keep the ill dupes away from others perhaps I could actually contain the darned sickness and let it die off, but as it is they're just continually infecting one another. I haven't gotten the materials yet to make the cure medication (working on it, though).

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Just now, KieraGreywolf said:

Perhaps I'm a moron (Translation: I am a moron), but how do you quarantine them now? Looking at it, slimelung can no longer be sent to the triage bed. I know you can run them into a room and then make the doors impassable for them, but then that cuts them off from reaching food. How do you transport food into the room for them?

If I could just keep the ill dupes away from others perhaps I could actually contain the darned sickness and let it die off, but as it is they're just continually infecting one another. I haven't gotten the materials yet to make the cure medication (working on it, though).

Yeah, triage bed won't help with diseases.  At all.  For an extremely early base, you can manually move a dupe into a room that has a bed, a toilet, a sink, and some food, and lock the door behind them.  If you've got a bit of medical research, you can build a "Med Bay" 

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with either a "Sick Bay" or a "Disease Clinic" as the medical bed.

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Building a room "Med Bay" will keep the sick dupe quarantined as long as there's a free medical bed (triage cot, sick bay, or disease clinic) for the dupe.  But the triage cot doesn't do anything to help with slimelung.

So, when a dupe gets sick, click on a free medical bed in the Med Bay and chose the sick dupe.  Dupe will stay quarantined.

 

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If that is in fact the only way to do it at this point, that feels like a very obtuse system. It should not be so hard to isolate a sick dupe prior to having access to the medication to treat them or the disease clinic so far into the research tree. Getting them into the room isn't bad, but managing to get them food is obnoxious. Dupes come into contact with germs FAR earlier than they get injured. If Triage can no longer treat illness, it feels like Triage Beds and Disease Clinics should be reversed in the order you obtain them. Especially since it takes a decent deal of time to get a balm lily farm up and running. (And I've yet to see what else the cure may require.) And you cannot make the exosuits to avoid the germs without exposing yourself to the germs in the first place to get the reed fibers.

But hey, that's just me. I'm no master of ONI by any means.

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4 minutes ago, KieraGreywolf said:

If that is in fact the only way to do it at this point, that feels like a very obtuse system. It should not be so hard to isolate a sick dupe prior to having access to the medication to treat them or the disease clinic so far into the research tree. 

You can build a "med bay" room during day 1.  It will still quarantine the dupe, but a triage cot won't do anything to accelerate the dupe's recovery from slimelung.  You simply have to assign the sick dupe to the triage cot within the med bay to quarantine the dupe.  If you want the dupe to get better faster, then you want higher research.

The triage cot will help a dupe recover from physical injuries, though.

image.thumb.png.e4aadf316960d4a74b4d6b8b18f85639.png

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This totally stinks.  I have a long term base, no slime germs in the air anywhere, all slime that has been dug is sitting in chlorine and is already disinfected.  Right, as in immediately, after starting up with the new QOLIII I had a dupe come down with slime lung.  Really??? And of course the new tech isn't researched yet, so he's sneezing all over.  

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2 hours ago, Giltirn said:

As it stands you will catch slimelung almost immediately upon breaching the slime biome, so you're going to be popping pills like an addict for half the game.

It is not nearly that bad. I have had less than 1 sick one/cycle for slimelung now with 8 dupes. 12 planted Balm Lilies (1 flower/cycle) produce a excess of material for intermediate cures. While dupes seem to get sick the first time they come in contact with slimelung germs (and sleep), it seems they have immunity or much lower infection probability after that. May also be something with age after printing or the like. Except for needing two dupes with "duplicant treatment", a Med Bay and a small Balm Lily garden, I am basically back to tearing into the slime as before.

My guess is the devs wanted us to not ignore the germs anymore, but they did not make it really hard to deal with them. For the serious sicknesses, my guess would be that suits take care of that, especially as they should now not carry germs into the base anymore.

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32 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

You simply have to assign the sick dupe to the triage cot within the med bay to quarantine the dupe. 

Except you can't (or at least I can't). I've tried. I repeatedly get the message that they are not eligible. No matter which of my sick dupes I try. That was literally the first thing I did when I made my med bay. I've had it for numerous cycles now and I've yet to be able to assign any of my sick dupes to either bed. Unless this is a bug that's preventing me from doing so, as of right now I have no way to quarantine them.

Edit: Here is a screenshot of my current game. Burt is infected with slimelung, but per the right side of the image he is ineligible. When I click on him, nothing occurs.

 

TriageCot.png

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25 minutes ago, KieraGreywolf said:

Except you can't (or at least I can't). I've tried. I repeatedly get the message that they are not eligible. No matter which of my sick dupes I try. That was literally the first thing I did when I made my med bay. I've had it for numerous cycles now and I've yet to be able to assign any of my sick dupes to either bed. Unless this is a bug that's preventing me from doing so, as of right now I have no way to quarantine them.

OK, so..went back to the game.  Intentionally exposed Bubbles to Slimelung.

Spoiler

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It took 3 cycles of exposure every cycle before she got sick.  I stuck her in a room and made other dupes run in and out while she sneezed.  None of them were exposed to slimelung.  The room she was in had 800g/cell of oxygen and no polluted oxygen.  After that, I tried to assign her to the triage cot.  You're right, @KieraGreywolf, I can no longer assign her to a triage cot.  I then used  debug mode to teleport her to an area in my base with polluted oxygen just before she sneezed.  Another dupe walked through the PO after she sneezed and they got exposed.  They did not get sick from the single exposure.

So I built a sick bay and crafted a medicine pack from the apothecary.  The moment the medicine pack was delivered to the sick bay, Bubbles ran in and sat down in the med bay.

Spoiler

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So, for slimelung, you have to research the first two tiers of medicine.  I had all of the non-advanced research completed by cycle 20, which was quite a while before I started looking for mushrooms.

Spoiler

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That said, however... it DOES require a dupe with the "Duplicant Care" skill before you can craft the medpacks for the sickbay.  This means to automatically quarantine a sick dupe early in the game, one of your dupes won't be learning to dig or construct stuff.

Spoiler

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When Ada (my Caregiver) finally came in to treat Bubbles, when the treatment was done, Bubbles was cured and she automatically un-quarantined herself.

BUT... 

I had to expose a regular dupe for multiple cycles before they got sick.  Without polluted oxygen in my base, there was no way to transfer it on to other dupes -- even if they were directly in Bubble's vicinity while she was sneezing.  So if you are careful about digging out slime biomes and you keep your base oxygen clean, Slimelung really isn't a big problem in normal game play -- even if you have no caregivers and haven't built a med bay with a "Sick Bay" building.

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I played another 20 or so cycles today and filled my base with deodorizers. After a while only one or two of my six dupes would be sick of slimelung at any particular time. I've resolved to just ignore it as it is more hassle to deal with than it is just to add a little bit more patience onto the saintly patience required to get anything done in this game after the early game.

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1 minute ago, Giltirn said:

As it stands you will catch slimelung almost immediately upon breaching the slime biome, so you're going to be popping pills like an addict for half the game. Even a tiny pocket of infected POx will soon have your entire colony sneezing and coughing.

No, you won't.  As I posted above, It took me 3 full cycles of having Bubbles dig out a slime biome in polluted oxygen before she caught it.  This was in a base created with normal settings and a normal dupe.  I didn't test biohazzard or other traits.  She also didn't transmit it to the other dupes EXCEPT when there was polluted oxygen in the same area.  And again, they didn't get sick after a single exposure. 

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Just now, KittenIsAGeek said:

No, you won't.  As I posted above, It took me 3 full cycles of having Bubbles dig out a slime biome in polluted oxygen before she caught it.  This was in a base created with normal settings and a normal dupe.  I didn't test biohazzard or other traits.  She also didn't transmit it to the other dupes EXCEPT when there was polluted oxygen in the same area.  And again, they didn't get sick after a single exposure. 

Honestly I have no idea then how we are playing differently. I have only breached the slime biome by a few tiles in order to expand a couple of rooms here and there and put some insulation up. Despite that for a while I had over half of my 6 dupes sick of slimelung. It's possible the POx collected somewhere that they travel through often, but it is just so difficult to tell given that I end up with loads of POx floating around from the offgassing of the PH20 dropped by my algae terrariums. Either way I've resolved to either ignore it, or just disable it if it gets too annoying.

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20 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

Honestly I have no idea then how we are playing differently. I have only breached the slime biome by a few tiles in order to expand a couple of rooms here and there and put some insulation up. Despite that for a while I had over half of my 6 dupes sick of slimelung. It's possible the POx collected somewhere that they travel through often, but it is just so difficult to tell given that I end up with loads of POx floating around from the offgassing of the PH20 dropped by my algae terrariums. Either way I've resolved to either ignore it, or just disable it if it gets too annoying.

Ah!  I used oxygen diffusers and emptied my bottles of PW from terrariums until I had deoderizers researched.  I also put polluted dirt in a corner that was only accessed when emptying latrines (and later using the compost).  So my base generally has very little polluted oxygen.  I also built a water-lock before breaching the slime biome to keep PO2 from coming back in.

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2 minutes ago, JohnFrancis said:

So it's the combination of POx and slime lung that is so crippling. Don't have any POx in your base and slime lung cant survive. This is a bit of a nerf to algae terrariums, but a few more safety precautions should fix that play style.

You can also plant buddy buds in areas where you've got polluted oxygen.  The flowers appear to kill slimelung.

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1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

No, you won't.  As I posted above, It took me 3 full cycles of having Bubbles dig out a slime biome in polluted oxygen before she caught it.  This was in a base created with normal settings and a normal dupe.  I didn't test biohazzard or other traits.  She also didn't transmit it to the other dupes EXCEPT when there was polluted oxygen in the same area.  And again, they didn't get sick after a single exposure. 

Actually it seems a newly printed dupe can get it after their first time being exposed, but later it takes longer. 3 cycles of exposure make sense to me.

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I think devs just did slimelung to powerfull. My one dupe started be sick after being expose to 1,2k germs in air ... Next he started cough with 1k (?!!?!) germs. Now rest my dupes are sick from germs what were made by sick one. Thats crazy! Just one housand germs is enough to being sick.

I really like new system with diseases but its too powerfull at start or for newbie players.

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Not sure what my difference is from you guys. But I have dupes that were printed in the first 10 cycles (or exist from the getgo), and I had a room with PO2 in it and about 10 slimelung germs per tile (I don't know why they weren't multiplying, but that's irrelevant). I cracked it open, forgetting it was there, and within about 1.5 cycles I had 5 (of 8) dupes with slimelung. Among the other 3 were the one that never went outside the base, the one that never went in that direction, and one that was mostly farming inside the base. So everyone that went over there got sick.

I've also effectively eliminated PO2 on my map (seriously, I have deodorizers every 3rd step) - and they're spreading slimelung in my base. My base is nothing but CO2, O2, and a SMIDGE of Hydrogen (that honestly is probably too high for them to even get to). I played it out until some got cured, and they re-infected the rest by sneezing on them in the base. The base is, again, full of O2, CO2, and buddy buds.

Now, I haven't (atleast in this playthrough) been able to see if the second time they're exposed they're less likely, but in other tries (on the beta branch), it just wasn't making a difference.

To clarify, I don't have any boosters at this point. I had been actively avoiding cutting any slime at all, and I was this time too, I just accidentally cut into a room that already had airborne slimelung. But in my experience, boosters didn't make that much of a difference. I'll do some toying around (again), but I never found it to be easy to avoid. I found it rather easy to accidentally catch it.

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OK, so after some sandbox testing (on regular immune systems), here's the results.

Findings:

  • "Exposed to" expires when a duplicant wakes up in the morning. They will either become sick or be cured at this point. This means "Exposed to" should wear off within roughly 1 cycle. [unsure] It seems your dupe can also just get slimelung at any point in between there, but the end of sleep is a guarantee one way or another.
  • Whether or not a dupe will get sick from breathing in the gas is depending on a gas volume to germ ratio.
    • It appears to be 5 germs per 1g of O2, or 4 germs per 1g of PO2.
  • Sneezing duplicants DO NOT contaminate each other, only the air.
    • They do however, create 100g of PO2, with 1,000 slimelung germs on it. Any dupe that breathes this in will immediately be exposed to slimelung. (due to the germ/volume ratio)
  • I'm unsure what the actual germ resistance % represents. While a base dupe is 100%, germ resistant is 50%, and biohazardous is 150%.. I don't know what those relate to. 100% doesn't guarantee that if a dupe is exposed they'll become sick - though in testing it appears to be about 1/3 or 1/4 chance if they're exposed they'll get sick. I assume the % is % of base (so a normal dupe is 100% base) - but I don't know how base actually correlates to catching the disease or not.


These findings tell me why some of us have issues and some don't. Depending on your playstyle, outside your base may have a large amount of gas (making slimelung less dangerous). Having over 1kg of gas outside your base is a great way to prevent slimelung, since you'll need 4-5k germs in an air tile to get sick. However, having only 100-200g or an air? Majorly problematic - your dupe can get sick in as little as ~500-1k germs (and a sneeze is 1k).

It would also stand to reason that if you build a base like I do, so that all that air in it can flow downwards, and expect to keep all the PO2 out with a water lock, you'll get a bunched up amount of PO2 somewhere from sneezes. It's likely this is what is causing guaranteed infections across the rest of your dupes.



So suggestions for combatting slimelung:

The likely intended method is to quarantine any sick dupe (you may have to do it manually), and cleanse all the air in that room. You immediately give them a cure. When you're mining slime, you need to use an exosuit or you need to ensure there's no PO2 runoff. If there is PO2 runoff, ensure that the whole area is PO2 and there's a low amount of germs, or make sure that you're cleaning it actively. Your dupe can get sick from a high number of germs, in O2 or PO2.

I'd also suggest buddy-buds and deodorizers in areas that your dupes frequent together, such as bathrooms. That should (hopefully) make it so if they sneeze, the PO2 gets converted quickly, and the slimelung may even get squelched by the floral scents.

 

But what I really want to try? Filling my base with PO2 instead of O2. Dumping buddy-buds in, so floral scents spread wild. The floral scents should overpower any sneezes that happen, making the slimelung never show up in the first place. And since the whole base is PO2, a sneeze that throws out 100g PO2 is just helping with your oxygen generation - it should immediately mix (and floral scents overpower slimelung).

Suggestions to devs:

Knowing what I know now, I'd like to see floral scents grow in O2, unlike other germs which only really grow in PO2. If it is meant to combat Slimelung / zombie spores, I think I shouldn't have to fight to get it to stay (a sneeze deletes a large portion of floral scents, plus they're dying regularly).  I'd also like to see the dupes not exhale polluted oxygen - I'd like to see carbon dioxide with slimelung on it, as that makes the most sense. It's weird that they breathe out polluted oxygen when they sneeze.



 

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