Tigermouth25

Warly and why he needs a rework

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pe5e    29
Posted (edited)

I appriciate the effort you put into this rework. Warly is one of the most unique and fun characters for me. I agree on some things but also disagree on certain things.

First, I dont think Warly is a bad character. You mentioned how he is difficult for newer players, because of his higher hunger rate and and penalties. I do agree here but in my opinion he isnt and was not designed to be a character that teaches the player the basics of the game. To be able to play Warly one has to know a lot of crockpot recipes, perish times for food, where and how he gets it and so on. It requires a lot knowledge and Klei assumes that the player has a certain level of understanding about Dont Starave which is why he has the highest experience requirement in the whole game. So he is clearly supposed to be a challenge character simular to Wes or Maxwell (though in my opinion much better executed than Wes). With that in mind a lot of his downsides get smaller when the player knows what to do and accepts that he is a challenge.

As you pointed out though, he clearly has flaws that could be improved without destroying his uniqueness. I like the idea of choosen recipes for Warly but I feel like random recipes each day are not a good solution. A more interesting way could be if Warly has a certain list of acceptable crock pot foods for each season. Like only getting his +33% on crockpot foods that require vegtables for Mild Season for example. This way the player can plan ahead and interact with the world differently throughout the year. It would be good of course if Warly would have a unique list for every season in each DLC (so 12 lists). His additional crockpot recipes would have to be slightly expanded to fit 1-2 unique recipes with ingridients from each DLC. 
Warly certainly would need quite a few more speech lines with so many changing recipes and hunger/variety annoucments in place.

And that is really it from me. I think he is fine except for his current variety problem and his discouragement for food experimentation. His penalties, crockpot, chef pouch and hunger stat can stay the same in my book. If his above two problems change, then the rest shouldnt be a problem and he would stay a challenge character.

Let me know what you think of my approach to tweet Warly.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by pe5e
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Namelessgamer    527
Posted (edited)

Warly also one of my favorite characters, it’s sad to see that he is really underpowered.

This pretty much the best description for his current state.

Variety food is absolutely bad and overcome all his upside, any normal character Make meatballs+normal meats and survive the entire seasons, meanwhile i am stuck in my base trying to find ingredients for recipes.

Wes is easier than him in ruins because the fact he can stack taffy and jerky, warly can’t do that.

I don’t think the main problem is that he is “hard” to play, but the fact he doesn’t reward skilled player, the time you learn variety and find ingredient you get the same reward as wilson killing spider for meatballs with less effort and time.

I don’t think he need a complete rework, he need rebalancing, variety definitely need a change.

QoL needed:

Let him upgrade his chef pouch using Krampus sack, because in mid game more inventory is needed so i have to sacrifice his chef pouch.

His crockpot should cook food faster, this will make him turtle less next to his crockpot.

Edited by Namelessgamer
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pe5e    29
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Namelessgamer said:

Variety food is absolutely bad and overcome all his upside, any normal character Make meatballs+normal meats and survive the entire seasons, meanwhile i am stuck in my base trying to find ingredients for recipes.

Well yes obviously, that is the challenge of the character. His hunger is more time consuming to statisfy. His hunger drain rate shouldnt change. Instead the methods around it should be tweeked.

Wes is easier than him in ruins because the fact he can stack taffy and jerky, warly can’t do that.

Not necessarily. While he does need more inventory space in the ruins, it is not that bad. A stack of honey and fishes (and maybe pumpkins if insanity is a bigger problem for you) gives quite a few good recipes given that monster meat is easily obtainable in the ruins. A stack  healing salves or honey poultice sould be enough for a ruins run. Warly also does more damage than Wes, which is not insignificant.

I don’t think the main problem is that he is “hard” to play, but the fact he doesn’t reward skilled player, the time you learn variety and find ingredient you get the same reward as wilson killing spider for meatballs with less effort and time.

You are right, the problem isnt that he is too hard to play (again he is a challenge character, you just have to figure him out), but his problem also isnt that he doesn’t reward smart play. It is just that he becomes boring after a while, because his game play doesnt change once you found your rythm. That is why I suggested above that his appetite should change with time (be it days like OP´s idea or seasons). That way things stay fresh and dont get stale too quickly.

It is true that he needs more time to set up things and has a slower early to midgame. But once you have a variety of different food source set up this shouldnt be too much of an issue. Given that he is supposed to be a challenge character I think this additional required setup is fine.

I don’t think he need a complete rework, he need rebalancing, variety definitely need a change.

Agreed.

Suggestion:

Let him upgrade his chef pouch using Krampus sack, because in mid game more inventory is needed so i have to sacrifice his chef pouch.

His crockpot should cook food faster, this will make him turtle less next to his crockpot.

I think these solution dont adress the roots of Warly´s problems. The gameplay would still be a bit tedious and stale after a while. Tweeking his variety, appetit and better speech lines should be the main focus of improvements in my opinion.

 

Edited by pe5e
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Tigermouth25    22
Posted (edited)
Quote

You mentioned how he is difficult for newer players, because of his higher hunger rate and and penalties. I do agree here but in my opinion he isnt and was not designed to be a character that teaches the player the basics of the game.

I'm fine with Warly not being beginner friendly. The crockpot itself isn't beginner friendly either and people usually need the wiki open or mod to help them make meals anyway. My problem is that it is really easy to get stuck in a downward spiral with Warly's pickness that makes playing him extremely frustrating. No character should be designed that way. The lack of communication doesn't help either.

 
Your seasonal menu idea does sound interesting but I would be concerned about players stockpiling ingredients for "the best meal" and eating nothing but that for the entire season. One of the reasons I went with the random element in my mod was to keep players on their toes when it came to what to make. This helped increase variety without being too frustrating. In fact, my mod has a few ways of keeping the frustration down with the preferred menu system. Aside from never repeating the same menu the next day, I also made sure that all the menus had some meal overlap to keep them from being annoying. For example, the Sweets menu has a lot of fruit dishes on it so that not having Honey doesn't completely lock you out of the menu. A few other things you would need to be address would be a way to identify what season it is, meal bonuses/penalties, meal reset time, etc. You could also get creative too. For example, maybe there could be certain meals that can only be made during a specific season. I like my idea better but yours has a lot of potential too.
 
I'm 100% with everyone on Warly not rewarding smart play. Ironically, the smartest way to play him is to use the Meatball trick I mentioned in my original post. Once you realize that, you will begin to ask yourself "Why am I playing the chef character if all I eat is Meatballs?". Warly kinda falls apart once you reach that point.
 
I think I messed around with the idea of Warly being able to upgrade his Chef Pouch in my mod. It's been a while but I think the problem I ran into was that the game had trouble using the Chef Pouch as a recipe ingredient since you couldn't put it in your inventory, only wear it. Another issue that I saw someone bring up with it was that an upgradeable Chef Pouch detracts from his core gameplay because Warly isn't a tailor, he's a chef. In the end, I just made it so you can adjust the attributes of Chef Pouch in my mod's config menu. You can adjust it's size from 4 to 14 slots, make the spoil effect also keep Ice from melting or cool Thermal Stones or just remove the feature all together, make the Chef Pouch Waterproof and/or Fireproof and so on. This worked out better since it put the choice in the player's hand for how strong they wanted the Chef Pouch. I usually play with a waterproof 10 slot Chef Pouch and that seems balanced to me.
 
Quote

Warly also one of my favorite characters, it’s sad to see that he is really underpowered.

This pretty much the best description for his current state.

It's funny you mention that post, because that's one of the main things that lead me to making my mod! It has a lot of good information about how he is played in every aspect of the game and I used it as a resource on ways to fix Warly. It really opened my eyes to how poorly Warly performs in DS. The fact that Warly ties with Wes so often in effectiveness in Shipwrecked is also a bad sign.

 

Quote

I don’t think he need a complete rework, he need rebalancing, variety definitely need a change.

Agreed.

When I said rework, I meant the same thing as rebalancing. I'm not suggesting something extreme like Warly not being a chef anymore or  replacing him with an Astronaut. His concept was great, the execution wasn't. The important thing to remember about improving Warly is that his biggest problem is also one of his core perks. Removing the Vareity perk and replacing it with nothing only makes him overpowered and boring to play. I've already tried this in my mod. Any change to Variety would probably mean that some of his other perks would need to be tweaked too for the sake of balance. My mod manages to get away with replacing it by allowing the user to tweak the power of ever old and new perk to their liking.

 

It's always good to get some feedback. I hope someday Warly will get the improvements he needs.
Edited by Tigermouth25
Grammar!
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pe5e    29
On 1.5.2019 at 3:09 AM, Tigermouth25 said:

I'm fine with Warly not being beginner friendly. The crockpot itself isn't beginner friendly either and people usually need the wiki open or mod to help them make meals anyway. My problem is that it is really easy to get stuck in a downward spiral with Warly's pickness that makes playing him extremely frustrating. No character should be designed that way. The lack of communication doesn't help either.

I see it the same way, I just wanted to point out that a reworked Warly should still be a expert character and geared towards players with more experience and knowledge of the game. Maybe I worded this poorly but I think you agree with me here.
 
Your seasonal menu idea does sound interesting but I would be concerned about players stockpiling ingredients for "the best meal" and eating nothing but that for the entire season. One of the reasons I went with the random element in my mod was to keep players on their toes when it came to what to make. This helped increase variety without being too frustrating. In fact, my mod has a few ways of keeping the frustration down with the preferred menu system. Aside from never repeating the same menu the next day, I also made sure that all the menus had some meal overlap to keep them from being annoying. For example, the Sweets menu has a lot of fruit dishes on it so that not having Honey doesn't completely lock you out of the menu. A few other things you would need to be address would be a way to identify what season it is, meal bonuses/penalties, meal reset time, etc. You could also get creative too. For example, maybe there could be certain meals that can only be made during a specific season. I like my idea better but yours has a lot of potential too.
 
I just reread my post and saw that I only covered his appite and completely forgot how I would change his variety. I wouldnt get rid of his variety, in fact with my proposel it would be better if he not just remebered his last food 1,75 days ago but remebers it no matter how much time was between each meal! That would get rid of certain food stocking you mentioned along with the meatball trick. This way one needs to really pay attention to his food and can only stock certain food types in preparation of the coming seasons but has to still cook differnt crockpot foods throughout the season. 
I dont think it would be too difficult to guess the current season as the coloring layer changes along with the kind of hounds in ROG and SW and the weather. But maybe additional voice lines of Warly could help with that. Or even that Warly could examine the thermal measurer for some unique lines.
 
I'm 100% with everyone on Warly not rewarding smart play. Ironically, the smartest way to play him is to use the Meatball trick I mentioned in my original post. Once you realize that, you will begin to ask yourself "Why am I playing the chef character if all I eat is Meatballs?". Warly kinda falls apart once you reach that point.
 
I agree again. This is his biggest complaint. It is a shame really, because he is such an interesting character. Lets hope Klei adresses this someday somehow.
 
I think I messed around with the idea of Warly being able to upgrade his Chef Pouch in my mod. It's been a while but I think the problem I ran into was that the game had trouble using the Chef Pouch as a recipe ingredient since you couldn't put it in your inventory, only wear it. Another issue that I saw someone bring up with it was that an upgradeable Chef Pouch detracts from his core gameplay because Warly isn't a tailor, he's a chef. In the end, I just made it so you can adjust the attributes of Chef Pouch in my mod's config menu. You can adjust it's size from 4 to 14 slots, make the spoil effect also keep Ice from melting or cool Thermal Stones or just remove the feature all together, make the Chef Pouch Waterproof and/or Fireproof and so on. This worked out better since it put the choice in the player's hand for how strong they wanted the Chef Pouch. I usually play with a waterproof 10 slot Chef Pouch and that seems balanced to me.
 
I think his backpack is fine. 8 slots is good early and reasonable late game. I dont think losing 6 slots is a big downside. If one really needs the inventory space that badly for transporting things for example then Warly can simply swap to a krampus sack for a short while. For day to day inventory space mangement is key!

It's funny you mention that post, because that's one of the main things that lead me to making my mod! It has a lot of good information about how he is played in every aspect of the game and I used it as a resource on ways to fix Warly. It really opened my eyes to how poorly Warly performs in DS. The fact that Warly ties with Wes so often in effectiveness in Shipwrecked is also a bad sign.

I dont think he is nearly as bad as Wes and see him more on a level with Walani. Not bad, just meh because his main perk doesnt work correctly.

When I said rework, I meant the same thing as rebalancing. I'm not suggesting something extreme like Warly not being a chef anymore or  replacing him with an Astronaut. His concept was great, the execution wasn't. The important thing to remember about improving Warly is that his biggest problem is also one of his core perks. Removing the Vareity perk and replacing it with nothing only makes him overpowered and boring to play. I've already tried this in my mod. Any change to Variety would probably mean that some of his other perks would need to be tweaked too for the sake of balance. My mod manages to get away with replacing it by allowing the user to tweak the power of ever old and new perk to their liking.

As I said above, removing his variety was never my intention. That is after all what makes him interesting. Rember guys, it is often the weakness of a character that makes him interesting not only his perks.

It's always good to get some feedback. I hope someday Warly will get the improvements he needs.
 

 

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oCrapaCreeper    3,015
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, tHe_silent_H said:

with Warly being confirmed for a rework on DST, wonder if his changes will flow back to DS

Probably not sadly. 

It's funny how when he finally gets a buff/re-work, it's for another game instead.

Edited by oCrapaCreeper
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inferjus4    805
Posted (edited)
On 18.05.2019 at 12:26 PM, oCrapaCreeper said:

Probably not sadly. 

It's funny how when he finally gets a buff/re-work, it's for another game instead.

It is disappointing, not funny.
But we do not know yet, so let's do not give up hope about it.

Edited by inferjus4
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