Stonetribe

What's your Willow Refresh Wish list?

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Mr.Mulk    1,113
12 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

 

burning inventory would be able to kill other players is my biggest problem with that

And that's why I said it "Could be altered to from it's original DS incarnation to be more balanced and fitting for multiplayer,"

Spoiler
8 hours ago, Atkvin said:

I like the idea of inventory burning but it would become massively cheesy if she could literally just fell bosses like that without burning the loot. Just look at the pro outcry to Winona's catapults. Willow being able to solo a Deerclops in seconds faster than more combat oriented characters (Wolf, Wig) would unleash hell.

Personally, I'm down for her being able to craft a unique equipment that grants fire and/or overheating immunity - though I don't think it should be shareable to avoid making Dragonfly or Summer too easy..?

Along with that I'd want inventory burning to be made a legit thing in a different way - and given proper animations on the items. I'd remove the fire damage thing (as unique as it seems) due to my other suggestion of fire immunity equipment - and in its place, grant Willow a light aura i.e Charged WX as long as an item is on fire in her inventory. Aura increases to a max range the more items are on fire at once but heat her up more and more.

In exchange for the loss of inventory burning's offensive capabilities I'd allow her to heat up weapons to increase damage temporarily without burning enemies and potentially loot.

I also like the idea of imaginary insanity fires proposed earlier in this thread very much - but I'd rather they simply spawn as annoyances that hurt her if she gets too near rather than lock off structures.

 

To your first point, yes it is cheesy, however so is the entirety of Wickerbottom and Wolfgang's characters as well as overcharge in WX. In actual practice you're rarely going to have a situation where you have a completed boards inventory, a krampus sack, a dark sword, and a thule crown until mid-late game when those strategies (along with other character strats) actually are viable. The vast majority of actual use for it is just as a moderate dps boost, with lighting a couple slots of rope on fire to give you an edge over the enemy. This actually encourages players to design arenas and prepare resources to fight bosses, instead of just playing Wolfgang and pressing f at the right times.

Removing the AoE damage removes the entire point, no offense that's a bad idea. Making it just give a seasonal resistance and fire immunity just makes it an annoying fuel sink for summer which can be ignored entirely with proper seasonal equipment (Also Willow's already resistant to summer due to insanity cooling). And the fire immunity boost isn't good either, as being lit on fire or too close to a fire source is almost always completely avoidable with WASD. And the light aura is just a more costly lantern or miner's helmet. The damage boost to held weapons is meh, It'd make more sense if she just gained a damaging aura.

To sum it up designing perks around a seasonal resistance and light perks is only going to matter to the most beginner of players, and we should consider broadening the scope to perks that benefit all skill levels of players (like combat focused).

I feel like so many people love to critique inv burning who've never actually even tried it in the game before, it never plays out exactly how people assume it does. It (along with the required base fire immunity) makes Willow interesting and one of the best characters in DS (although obviously a tier list in a singleplayer game is questionable).

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Namelessgamer    518
Posted (edited)

Make her absorb and extinguish any fire nearby.

That will make her the ultimate anti-griefer.

Also unlimited lighter.

Edited by Namelessgamer
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minespatch    49,721
9 minutes ago, Namelessgamer said:

Make her absorb and extinguish any fire nearby.

That will make her the ultimate anti-griefer.

Also unlimited lighter.

59da49615ec0f_Winonacatapulthair.png.611713dcbd4420c277662655d98f448a.png

Next Winona rework should let you do this to her. While a human lighter Willow would be fun too.:wilson_ecstatic:

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Viktor234    1,487
15 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Fire Immunity and inventory Burning is a good place to start. Could be altered from its original DS incarnation to be more balanced and fitting for multiplayer, however at its core it's arguably Willow's best perk in DS.

I really disagree about the Inventory Burning Idea. She's not supposed to become a 2nd Wolfgang who can solo the DST Deerclops in less than 15 seconds with nothing but a stack of logs. Dunno if your suggestion for Fire Immunity is also just a suggestion to make Inventory Burning realizable.

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Mr.Mulk    1,113
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

I really disagree about the Inventory Burning Idea. She's not supposed to become a 2nd Wolfgang who can solo the DST Deerclops in less than 15 seconds with nothing but a stack of logs. 

I mean it's undeniable it makes her interesting and fun in DS, it's a solid perk that benefits all skill levels of players and effects all levels of gameplay (which is how I'd describe a good perk). And it's not the same thing as Wolfgang, there's more to it than just holding f at the right times. It's AoE foremost, giving it unique strategies against enemies with addons (like bee queen), as well as being heavily resource consuming if you wish to utilize it consistently for actually decent dps. Also in DST enemies have much higher hp counts making combat perks all the more salient, and a stack of logs wouldn't be nearly enough to kill a deerclops in the same fashion the video does.
 

This is also why I specify in my original post the perk could be altered to be more fitting for a multiplayer experience.... which someone else has already missed as well...
 

25 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Dunno if your suggestion for Fire Immunity is also just a suggestion to make Inventory Burning realizable.

This isn't some sort of conspiracy lol. They reworked how fire mechanics works in DST which removed it (ironically unintentionally). Believe it or not I'm not some "grand mastermind" trying to get the perk in, I'm just making a suggestion from ~1700 hours of playing Willow that allows me to have seen what works and what doesn't.

Edited by Mr.Mulk
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Pop Guy    1,934
Posted (edited)

I think playing with Willow should lead to unique gameplay, to actively look for fire, to "live it"!
So the fire for Willow should become a uniquely positive element: immunity is essential to maintain the "soul" of the character but immunity to overheating is also necessary. An arsonist who dies of heat has never been seen.
I also believe that a Willow player should be able to use ONLY the fire to stay sane: we leave Scottish hair, tubas, dapper clothes and green mushrooms to others, please. Mental health is something personal, every character has their own nightmares, everyone should have special remedies to recover quickly (or not at all as a defect, as in the case of Wickerbottom).
So I think Willow should recover a Sanity +20 near the flames. Remember her have the low parameter and freezing when it has little sanity.
But in my opinion Willow shouldn't stop there, he should dare more to be REALLY funny: Fire as WEAPON!
Now, in the game no one really uses fire as a weapon: it does little damage, threatens to damage the player himself and expand the flames to nearby structures, in addition to the risk of losing the loot!
But Willow should radically change the way you play in my view of things: you should WANT to fight with fire. But how?
Immunity is a first step, but not enough.
Let's say that if Willow hits an enemy that is on fire it deals 50% more damage. Here, this is already starting to make things more interesting.
But if, finally, Willow could even build "fiery" versions of the basic weapons?
Nothing particularly convoluted or complex: it would be enough to add a single tab for her, the "toys" tab. Here, combining each basic weapon of the game with a red gem can create an identical variant but with a reddish iridescence, with the same BUT features that inflict fire on enemies.
Always remember that there is always the risk of losing the loot in this way, of setting fire to nearby structures and that any teammates would have difficulty fighting together because they lack immunity. Not counting all the enemies immune to the flames!
So overall it seems to me quite balanced, but potentially hilarious to play, as well as easy to make.
I hope that Klei will give Willow the rebalancing that merit. As lore and appearance is one of my favorite characters, I'm sorry it's so badly done.
In Klei We Trust.

image.thumb.png.573a014e2a202adafb9d20ae31998554.png

Edited by Pop Guy

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Atkvin    408
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

your first point, yes it is cheesy, however so is the entirety of Wickerbottom and Wolfgang's characters as well as overcharge in WX. In actual practice you're rarely going to have a situation where you have a completed boards inventory, a krampus sack, a dark sword, and a thule crown

I.. what? Only Wickerbottom's tentacle pit would even come close in power to Willow with inventory burning and fire immunity vs bosses. And I somehow feel there is much more skill involved in hunting tentacles for her book and then planning a dangerous death trap than getting wood and standing there while the enemy dies from a mechanic that should burn its loot but doesn't as the feature was entirely unintended.

And you hardly need any of those things you brought up. If Willow were given both the things you suggest, proper inventory burning and fire immunity, all she'd need would be a Maxwell, Woodie, pig friends or a Rook to farm enough wood very early and a Piggyback crafted from basic materials in Alchemy (a meager 2 slots less than the Krampus Sack) since the speed won't affect her - all she needs to do is stand there after igniting everything! She does not need anything else except basic armor to shield herself while the creature dies in ~10seconds. Why would she need a nightmare sword or crown unless you're trying for a record time of cheesing a boss?

And while I'll accept your criticism on my ideas since I admittedly have never played too much Willow,

5 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

And it's not the same thing as Wolfgang, there's more to it than just holding f at the right times. It's AoE foremost, giving it unique strategies against enemies with addons (like bee queen)

Have you ever even played Wolfgang? Sure he's cheesy and can tank and crush anything quickly with enough armor and food, but judging by the clip you've shown, you seem to really lack understanding on the power of aoe damage that can kill Deerclops in seconds and doesn't even require careful kiting - you'll hardly even need to "press f' given enough resources to do the job. If pros were upset at Winona's catapults or Wortox's souls how do you think this perfect vision of Willow would land in DST?

I don't mean to attack you and your experience with Willow nor your hopes for her to become a more viable, unique and fun character, but I just really don't think this is the way to go about it.. Just because we have rather powerful characters and boss-stomp characters already doesn't mean Willow need to be given those buffs to match them - she just needs to be made fun enough and strong enough in her own niche to be competent with other characters.

Edited by Atkvin

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Mr.Mulk    1,113
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Atkvin said:

I.. what? Only Wickerbottom's tentacle pit would come close in power to Willow with inventory burning and fire immunity vs bosses. And I somehow feel there is much more skill involved inhunting tentacles for her book and then planning a death trap than getting the materials and standing there while the enemy dies from a mechanic that should burn its loot but doesn't as the feature was entirely unintended.

And you hardly need any of those things. If Willow were given both the things you suggest, proper inventory burning and fire immunity, all she'd need would be a Maxwell, Woodie, pig friends or a Rook to farm enough wood very early and a Piggyback crafted from basic materials in Alchemy (a meager 2 less slots than Krampus Sack) since the speed won't affect her - all she needs to do is stand there after igniting everything! She does not need anything else except basic armor to shield herself while the creature dies in ~10seconds. Why would she need a nightmare sword or crown unless you're trying for a record time of cheesing a boss?

This is completely over-blowing how it actually ends up playing out. The point actually references the issues it has, that it requires a significant amount of resources and time to maintain optimally (which is extremely rare in actual gameplay until the endgame). Stating that it's unfair because you can have a Maxwell or alternative source of fuel is like suggesting characters shouldn't have synergies with one another, in that case Wicker's books shouldn't charge WX players or her food keep Wolfgangs eternally mighty. Also as Willow if you're focusing on inventory burning and combat you're not really capable of exploring, traveling, or gathering, as you'll end up destroying precious resources along the way. So it locks you into a singular area for a significant chunk of time, costs a lot of fuel, and removes a basic function of the character, which is access to their inventory to use optimally.

People who've watched the video but never actually tried it in a playthrough assume that's how inventory burning actually plays out in normal gameplay. I can assure you it's never like that in reality.

A more realistic approach to it is the utilization of 2-5ish inventory slots set aside for burning rope in when needed, which provides a comfortable boost in DPS but doesn't require dropping and/or consuming my entire inventory and locking me to trying to find a spot where I won't burn anything. Also that takes time, so unless I walk around completely prepared for, say hounds, I'm probably not going to have the time to get properly set up and deal with them effectively, as least not in a way that doesn't risk burning my stuff. Logs are an inefficient fuel source based on cost/time to begin with, even if converted to boards, which end up getting you stuck standing in one place for a good period of time.

Also the mechanic of lighting stuff on fire in your inventory was completely intentional, otherwise coconades wouldn't be functional. The side effect of this, inventory burning, while not directly intentional was considered an interesting addition after the fact.
 

29 minutes ago, Atkvin said:

Have you ever even played Wolfgang? Sure he's cheesy and can tank and crush anything quickly with enough armor and food, but judging by the clip you've shown, you seem to really lack understanding on the power of aoe damage that can kill Deerclops in seconds and doesn't even require careful kiting - you'll hardly even need to "press f' given enough resources to do the job. If pros were upset at Winona's catapults or Wortox's souls how do you think this perfect vision of Willow would land in DST?

Honestly I'm kinda unhappy with the judgmental tone of this. Of course I understand the importance of good DPS, why do you think I'm suggesting inventory burning to begin with? I know how important combat is, it governs a significant portion of the gameplay. And also to the second part of this, it's not my job to answer a hypothetical about what some "pros" may whine about. Why should I care what a bunch of "pro meta" players think or if they get upset that their fragile meta gets changed? Nor am I suggesting this is a "perfect vision" of Willow, that's ridiculous. I said this mechanic is a good foundation for Klei to consider building off of.

And finally all of this is still ignoring the fact I stated I'd be fine with Klei working on it for a more multiplayer friendly setting! All of the critiques I've heard of it are assuming Klei just slaps it straight into the game without another thought (which I don't like), and I seriously doubt they'd do that to begin with.

 

Edited by Mr.Mulk
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On 4/5/2019 at 2:23 PM, Stonetribe said:

Maybe Willow could also simply gain the ability to quickly extinguish fires with her hands even if they're actually burning and not just smoldering? I do think that being the resident fire fighter would certainly be a useful team ability, but at the same time I'm kind of conflicted as putting out fires is awfully contradictory to a character whose in-game nickname is literally The Firestarter. It probably wouldn't be too big of a deal though, it's not like Willow can't love setting fire to as many things as possible while also still wanting to keep the things she needs to survive intact.

Make objects/structures/mobs/fire pits/campfires in a radius around her burn for *longer* before going out.

This helps with every criterion. It's more in-character for the Firestarter. It means flaming mobs receive more fire damage. And it means the team has more time to react and extinguish burning valuables. Also would be a nice way to conserve fuel before everyone has Scaled Furnaces.

On 4/5/2019 at 4:29 PM, Stonetribe said:

I'm pretty sure that's not true, a single fire dart does 120 damage and a fire staff shot does about 50 and rabbits only have 25 health.

It is absolutely true. Fire in DST deals different amounts of damage depending on the source and the target but they are all pretty lackluster. Typically bosses take around 75-85hp of damage from a single fire staff blast or the burn that follows gunpowder, 55-65 damage when set ablaze by a torch or Willow's Lighter, and 35-45 damage when set ablaze by a Fire Dart (Fire Darts are really really bad, the most expensive firestarting item and yet the worst damage) over about a 10 second burn. The fire staff's ~8 DPS is almost negligible compared to the damage Willow currently does with even really bad melee weapons (54.4 DPS with just a flint axe, for instance--27.2 damage per hit and 2 hits per second).

Trash mobs generally take even less damage from fire than bosses (by about half). You don't need to take my word for this, you can check it out yourself with console commands and any mod that displays mob HP like Show Me.

The main value fire has in combat right now is not damage, but crowd control. Many mobs are CC'd while they burn because they run around in a panic, unable to do damage. This can be situationally useful if you are in an open space with no flammable valuables around. I've linked this video a few times before but it does showcase combat mechanics in DST that I'd like to see expanded upon, even if they are of little practical use in DST's current state:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSMhN4i0-eM

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Stonetribe    419
2 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

It is absolutely true. Fire in DST deals different amounts of damage depending on the source and the target but they are all pretty lackluster. Typically bosses take around 75-85hp of damage from a single fire staff blast or the burn that follows gunpowder, 55-65 damage when set ablaze by a torch or Willow's Lighter, and 35-45 damage when set ablaze by a Fire Dart (Fire Darts are really really bad, the most expensive firestarting item and yet the worst damage) over about a 10 second burn. The fire staff's ~8 DPS is almost negligible compared to the damage Willow currently does with even really bad melee weapons (54.4 DPS with just a flint axe, for instance--27.2 damage per hit and 2 hits per second).

Trash mobs generally take even less damage from fire than bosses (by about half). You don't need to take my word for this, you can check it out yourself with console commands and any mod that displays mob HP like Show Me.

Wow, you're right. I didn't realize that the damage varied depending on the mob. Yeah, fire related weapons definitely need to be buffed then. Not just if they're used by Willow even, just buffed in general.

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sosiskaKi    145
On 06.04.2019 at 12:29 AM, Stonetribe said:

I'm pretty sure that's not true, a single fire dart does 120 damage and a fire staff shot does about 50 and rabbits only have 25 health.

Really? I need about 7 fireballs to kill grass gekko.

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2 minutes ago, Stonetribe said:

No you we're right! I was only going off what the wiki said before I tried it out for myself.

The wiki has an absurd amount of misleading and inaccurate information about DST, mostly (I think) due to confusion about mechanics that have changed from how they worked in single player, though that alone doesn't account for all of the misinformation. I don't trust anything it says anymore until I've confirmed it in-game : 3

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Stonetribe    419
6 minutes ago, Swanky Psammead said:

The wiki has an absurd amount of misleading and inaccurate information about DST, mostly (I think) due to confusion about mechanics that have changed from how they worked in single player, though that alone doesn't account for all of the misinformation. I don't trust anything it says anymore until I've confirmed it in-game : 3

Yeah, I'm aware that it's been in need of some attention for a while now, especially in regards to things being different between the two versions of the game, which in all fairness is a hassle in its own right.

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Canis    2,689
53 minutes ago, Stonetribe said:

Yeah, I'm aware that it's been in need of some attention for a while now, especially in regards to things being different between the two versions of the game, which in all fairness is a hassle in its own right.

Nevermind that the entirety of this year is going to be filled with changes to the game.

Hooh boy.

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minespatch    49,721
4 hours ago, Canis said:

Also here's my excuse for posting this

You could also remake this with a alternative text saying "Consider the alternative".:wilson_ecstatic:

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Canis    2,689
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, minespatch said:

You could also remake this with a alternative text saying "Consider the alternative".:wilson_ecstatic:

When I was *really* tired last night, I almost said "screw it" and made it say "this is why youre a f***ing idiot" or "this is why you're wrong" but then I decided against it because I like not being banned.

(Also if you want to meme with it or something heres the version without a background)

Spoiler

5caa325074d01_MagmaticWillownobg.thumb.png.69c2712cf55e6939707ad545bbb16ff8.png

 

Edited by Canis
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TurtleKitty    1,135

1. Fire Immunity. Absolutely integral to her character. 
2. Immunity or Resistance to Overheating. 
3. Loses sanity quicker when cold, maybe? 
4. Bernie getting little accessory add-ons like a firelight or dragging a 4-slot pack behind him. or little teddy armor. 
5. ?Profit???

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Canis    2,689
33 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Give Willow the ability to set fire to the rain.

Give Willow the ability to set fire to air

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Stonetribe    419
1 hour ago, Canis said:

Give Willow the ability to set fire to air

Give Willow the ability to set fire to fire.

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