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Mr.Mulk

Moon Rock Idols and Character Reworks

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Mr.Mulk    1,114

So I've taken some time to enjoy the recent updates we've been getting with both the new character, Wortox, as well as Winona. However, there has been one thing that's been on my mind since the updates began which has bothered me, something which progressively is a growing concern. That thing is... Moon Rock Idols. No seriously, hear me out on this one.

To clarify, the majority of Winona's buff (to my understanding) is construed in a massive buff to her item/structure creation. I understand that there are perks around her character itself, however for the sake of this we'll be focusing primarily on her new structures, as well as the one issue I've noticed developing in relation to the usage of moon rock idols. After the calming down of her hype, a significant portion of players I encountered have started using her solely to build her structures and then immediately switch back to their (usually) meta characters, making her "buff" really more a buff to the farms which can be used by any character (ironically buffing the meta even more). She became what I half-jokingly like to call a "swap" character, which is a term I coined for a character who's only useful for their items/structures, but isn't actually played because they're still not Wolfgang or Wickerbottom. While I agree that being a "swap" character is better than not being played at all I don't think it's necessarily the game design DST should have, at least in my opinion. Characters should be buffed so that they're played, not used merely as construction tools for another, more powerful character.
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 This issue stems from moonrock idols themselves, which degrade the importance of character choice as a whole (you can be anyone on essentially a whim with no realistic limits) however the purpose of this discussion isn't really so much about these items themselves (although they need some sort of fix in my opinion) as it is the upcoming rebalance for this month: Willow.

Now why would I be concerned about this? Because Bernie and the lighter both exist, and the same concept can be applied to them. Make no mistake, buffing a character's items as opposed to the character themselves is not by any means a bad thing, it's still a buff, however it's also indirectly a buff to everyone else in addition, which is arguably not the intention of "character-specific" items. To sum up what I'm saying is I'm concerned with the rebalance Klei is going to use up a lot of their assets working on Bernie instead of working on Willow as a character herself, which is going to realistically have one of two outcomes. Either Bernie will be useful enough to matter, resulting in people swapping to Willow solely to craft him and then swapping back (similar to Winona now) or he's still not going to matter, either of which at it's core isn't a good thing. I find it extremely unlikely that the buff if focused heavily on Willow's items will garner enough for people to be interested in actually playing her so much as it will cause people to just have yet another set of tools to acquire when they switch characters.
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There's multiple solutions to this issue, and I'm completely aware it may not be an issue at all in practice, as Klei may focus solely on Willow herself for the rebalance (we obviously have no idea). Foremost, (unfortunately) nerfing moonrock idols in some way may be a solution. Since I'm not a fan of nerfing stuff (it usually makes the game less fun) I'm not exactly thrilled at this thought, however perhaps a tentative cooldown could be considered as a simple solution that doesn't ruin their purpose and yet makes them not spammable (making character choice at least slightly more important as a result). Another solution is if the future rebalances focus solely on the characters themselves moreso over their items/structures. Obviously Winona is a fringe case where her items and structures being her main thing is thematically appropriate, however future character reworks should be more focused on the character over their items (unless their items are genuinely character specific, ie can't be transferred and used by another).

Honestly I'm probably just paranoid and this may not even end up being an issue, and I recognize that. I just want Klei to focus more on the characters themselves and consider the implications of buffing character items when moonrock idols exist and are relatively easily to acquire/use.

TL;DR
I don't want the primary direction Klei takes with reworking Willow to go towards buffing her items, specifically Bernie, which would encourage her to become an item "swap" character. I think the focus should be on mechanically buffing Willow herself before attempting to buff the items is considered.

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Canis    2,818

I heard an idea getting thrown around that a viable nerf to this specific situation would be to remove the catapult's HP regen if the Winona that built it logs off of the server / goes into caves / switches characters. It's not a huge thing, but it would keep the incentive to play as Winona.

Theres also the possibility that you can add more maintenance to Winona's buildings, which forces you to play Winona if you want to keep them up.

 

For willow, we have no idea what Klei is going to do with her, so we'll just have to hold our tongue until the update comes.

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Mr.Mulk    1,114
4 minutes ago, Canis said:

For willow, we have no idea what Klei is going to do with her, so we'll just have to hold our tongue until the update comes.

Yeah I point that out in the post, the purpose is more to just give the suggestion that buffing a character's items (unless truly specific like Lucy or the Codex Umbra) isn't necessarily a direct buff to the actual character themselves, and that this should be considered when they're reworking Willow.

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Fidooop    2,584

Just force character specific items to be character specific at their core in some way or another.... Winona buildings requiring Winona to do routine maintenance for her structures to stay at optimal functionality. Bernie could require a Willow to link to the same exact way Abigail links to Wendy making him leave the server with Willow whenever she leaves. This end result would make "swap" characters nonexistent because you wouldn't be able to keep their items after switching to a different character.

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TealsMyth    20

I mean there are worse fates than being a switch character. Like being pre-buff Winona! Luckily this sounds like a problem with a few easy solutions.
1. When a Winona switches characters, it self destruct the buildings that she made. Similar to how it does in TF2 when a player switches off of Engineer (Completely unrelated game, but its the best example I could think of). This solution is honestly easy enough where someone could mod it in the game, but I doubt anyone would use a mod that nerfs something like this.
2. Add a cool down to switching characters so people can't not rapidly switch characters. This one explains itself really, this cool down could either be attached to the player or the portal itself.
3. Re-working the idol to multiply it's cost to use every time it's used The most over complicated yet effective solution so far. This would incentivize players to use character switches sparingly

The good thing is that the idols usually are made in the later game, so early game its not too much of an issue. So it's a somewhat situational problem that I don't think would be likely to happen to Willow, but then again I think that discussions like this help the developers to digest community feedback and ideas.

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Fidooop    2,584
2 minutes ago, TealsMyth said:

1. When a Winona switches characters, it self destruct the buildings that she made. Similar to how it does in TF2 when a player switches off of Engineer (Completely unrelated game, but its the best example I could think of). This solution is honestly easy enough where someone could mod it in the game, but I doubt anyone would use a mod that nerfs something like this.

See, the issue here is that the structures took resources to make. And also might mess with placement. (imagine setting up your crockpots and fridges just right and then suddenly your crockpots self-destructed)

I think a better solution would be to have them deactivate outright. Only problem with that though is that they'd deactivate if she left to caves. Which is why I believe they should just degrade overtime and require a Winona regularly fixing them up.

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Chris1448    12,694
3 minutes ago, Fidooop said:

Which is why I think they should just degrade overtime and require a Winona regularly fixing them up.

Alternatively, they could use the tape to be patched up, so you don't need a Winona to be around to repair her buildings, but you will need her eventually to resupply the tape used to fix her buildings.

And regarding Willow, personally I feel like her items are fine and in good standing. The buffs she needs lies in her actual character, not the items. #FireImmunity2019

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The way I see it is that Moonrock Idols make the character choice a lot less meta, as beforehand when picking a character you really needed to think about who to pick, now you know that you won’t be stuck with the character till the end of time so the choice is a lot less important, whether or not the majority of games reach that point.  I agree with Winnona being a ‘swap’ character though, if duct tape worked less effectively for other players it could help on her part, or if genoraters occasionally broke down, and could only be fixed by Winnona.

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TealsMyth    20
1 minute ago, Fidooop said:

See, the issue here is that the structures took resources to make. And also might mess with placement. (imagine setting up your crockpots and fridges just right and then suddenly your crockpots self-destructed)

I think instead they should just deactivate outright. Only problem with that though is that they'd deactivate if she left to caves. Which is why I think they should just degrade overtime and require a Winona regularly fixing them up.

What do you mean by messing with placement to cause crockpots and fridges to SD? And I mean like that to only happen if she switches characters not if she leaves the game or not.
I realize that creates a different problem of people joining on alts, building and leaving forever. However at that point the player is going out of their way to abuse the game. Currently the issue is that people can use Winona as a "swap" pick and the game alllows it to some extent, which renders actually playing Winona in the current meta during the late game kind of pointless.

 

1 minute ago, Unn0ticedShadow said:

if genoraters occasionally broke down, and could only be fixed by Winnona.

Flashbacks to the drills in Payday 2 "occasionally" breaking down

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Datanon    209

imo the simplest solution would be to only allow winona to charge the generators

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Viktor234    1,734
1 hour ago, Datanon said:

imo the simplest solution would be to only allow winona to charge the generators

That's the easiest solution but not the best to be fair.

It feels same like disabling spawned tentacles if there's no Wickerbottom in range and removing Maxwell's ability to read books because only Wickerbottom should be able to use her books.

Want to kill Bee Queen with Catapults? Swap to Winona, refuel the generators with gems, kill Bee Queen, swap your character once again.
Want to kill Bee Queen with Tentacles? Just kill her with Tentacles.

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Fidooop    2,584
3 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

That's the easiest solution but not the best to be fair.

It feels same like disabling spawned tentacles if there's no Wickerbottom in range and removing Maxwell's ability to read books because only Wickerbottom should be able to use her books.

Want to kill Bee Queen with Catapults? Swap to Winona, refuel the generators with gems, kill Bee Queen, swap your character once again.
Want to kill Bee Queen with Tentacles? Just kill her with Tentacles.

The point trying to be made here is to avoid swapping to Winona just for a single use and then back to "your character".

The point is making it so that people use a character for the character and not the character's items. It's not cool if a character's just used to spawn stuff and then gets swapped out right away, there's then no point in the character anymore. lol

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Viktor234    1,734
14 minutes ago, Fidooop said:

The point trying to be made here is to avoid swapping to Winona just for a single use and then back to "your character".

The point is making it so that people use a character for the character and not the character's items. It's not cool if a character's just used to spawn stuff and then gets swapped out right away, there's then no point in the character anymore. lol

I'm explaining why that suggestion doesn't feel that good, you're explaining me what this topic is about.

Winona's Catapults are mostly only useful to deal with bosses or the Reed Field Trap but not the best way to deal with Hounds etc. (Pigs, Bunnymen or Spiders as Webber work way better). They might be useful to farm caged mobs but feeding a mob and telling him to attack each other or just picking Wendy or Webber is pretty much the same. Why would anyone want to use Winona's Catapults daily?

 

A reason why Winona is a Pick and Drop Character is probably because she doesn't has any useful surviving abilities except the free hit from Charlie & faster crafting but I get into this situation only once every 10-20 games.

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x0VERSUS1y    2,818

I for one found the Moon Rock Idol pretty problematic in current incarnation right from start, mainly the lack of a buffer period and cheap material requirements.

 

20 days-buffer for another character-swap could be part of an answer to its balance.

Also making it more costly, like its aspect seems to imply more moon-rock to its build: 1 Purple Gem + 1 Moonlens + 5 Moon Rocks - seems more in tune with its use (by comparison Moon Dial is costlier yet less useful) and be another part of this particular item's balance-issue.

 

No matter the characters re-balances, above changes could be an elegant solution to the swapping affair.

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Warlockadamm    613

I so dont understand why a dilemma like that bugs people... why do you mind how other people play ! If you dont like the idea of character swamping well just dont do it ! Its that easy. I dont get how character swamping can affect someone that doesnt use it !? If you wanna go kill a boss a certain way let it be. Just dont impose your playstyle on others, that take all the fun out of a game...

If some people choose to swamp to winona just to kill bee queen and then go back to their character its there choices. The biggest problem with the playerbase atm is people value "meta, power, OP, effectivness" over FUN. You play a game to have fuuuuuuun. 

 

Sorry for my outburst but many times have i felt to say those line in one of those type of thread

 

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x0VERSUS1y    2,818
3 minutes ago, Warlockadamm said:

I so dont understand why a dilemma like that bugs people... why do you mind how other people play ! If you dont like the idea of character swamping well just dont do it ! Its that easy. I dont get how character swamping can affect someone that doesnt use it !? If you wanna go kill a boss a certain way let it be. Just dont impose your playstyle on others, that take all the fun out of a game...

If some people choose to swamp to winona just to kill bee queen and then go back to their character its there choices. The biggest problem with the playerbase atm is people value "meta, power, OP, effectivness" over FUN. You play a game to have fuuuuuuun. 

 

Sorry for my outburst but many have i felt to say those line in one of those type of thread

 

Actually fair point.

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Fidooop    2,584

The whole reason Klei's doing character revamps is to balance the characters all out and diversify what people play and give them more options rather than have every single server be filled with Wicker, Wigfrid, and Wolfgang. Character swapping completely tears apart that idea and people will just use a character for things they make and then swap back to the most powerful character. It's not fixing how unfun it is to play on pubs, it's just sort of reinforcing it instead.

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Viktor234    1,734

Winona's only 'survive abilities' right now are:

  • Takes a free hit from Charlie (if your light source disappears, you'll have twice as much time to replenish your Light)
  • Crafts twice as fast if not hungry (useful if you need for example a weapon/armor against Hounds chasing you)

These are abilities which grant you a 2nd chance in case of emergency, but these situations are really rare nowadays, only if you can't find your lantern in your inventory or if you forget that Hounds are approaching. A way more used ability against safety hazards might be:

  • Taking critical damage will make you survive with 1 health and you'll become invincible for 0.5 seconds; resets after some amount of time if you restore 50% of your max health (if you loose a fight against any mob or boss (armor broken etc.), you'll still get a chance to flee and to cheat death)

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Fidooop    2,584

But if gemerators were only fuelable by Winona suddenly all her structures become parts of her survival perks just the same way as spiders are a Webber perk or Bernie is a Willow perk.

In my honest opinion a character should not introduce things that any character can use. It's like if you spawned in as Webber and then changed to Wilson and was able to still befriend spiders as Wilson.

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TealsMyth    20
14 minutes ago, Warlockadamm said:

If some people choose to swamp to winona just to kill bee queen and then go back to their character its there choices. The biggest problem with the playerbase atm is people value "meta, power, OP, effectivness" over FUN. You play a game to have fuuuuuuun. 

For games like these the "meta, power OP, effectivness" and the fun factor need to mesh together. Some people find the fun in doing well and playing the meta. I know the person who started the thread can speak from experience when I say it's not always fun when it feels like your favorite character is at a constant disadvantage or they're a throw away pick. It's something I've definitely experience in many different games. An example would be if they

Lets say Stanley wanted to main Winona after the update and he's playing just for fun! However a few months later he finds out that everyone else can just swap to Winona, build, then swap back. Since a large chunk Winona's impact after the update is her buildings, that would kind of make Stanley feel invalidated because that character specific thing doesn't feel so special anymore.

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Viktor234    1,734
14 minutes ago, Fidooop said:

But if gemerators were only fuelable by Winona suddenly all her structures become parts of her survival perks just the same way as spiders are a Webber perk or Bernie is a Willow perk.

In my honest opinion a character should not introduce things that any character can use. It's like if you spawned in as Webber and then changed to Wilson and was able to still befriend spiders as Wilson.

Nobody is forced to use Winona's gears since there are many alternatives available, and Bernie isn't Willows perk because every character can use him as much as he/she wants to. Willow's Lighter is her perk because it's not refuelable and only Willow can cook items with it.

And it's more like if you spawned as Webber, collected Spider Eggs easily, made a sturdy Spider farm and swap later on to Wilson just to make use of that Farm as Wilson. Befriending Spiders as Webber is a way different ability and can also be achieved with a Spider Hat.

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Mr.Mulk    1,114
1 hour ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

I for one found the Moon Rock Idol pretty problematic in current incarnation right from start, mainly the lack of a buffer period and cheap material requirements.

 

20 days-buffer for another character-swap could be part of an answer to its balance.

Also making it more costly, like its aspect seems to imply more moon-rock to its build: 1 Purple Gem + 1 Moonlens + 5 Moon Rocks - seems more in tune with its use (by comparison Moon Dial is costlier yet less useful) and be another part of this particular item's balance-issue.

 

No matter the characters re-balances, above changes could be an elegant solution to the swapping affair.

My dude that couldn't have been said any better. While the purpose of this thread isn't to address the moon rock idol issue (at least not directly) the fact is it plays into why character items aren't necessarily character specific anymore in a big way. Which is why I think rebalances should focus less on character items and more on character mechanics (at least as a foundation).

 

1 hour ago, Warlockadamm said:

I so dont understand why a dilemma like that bugs people... why do you mind how other people play ! If you dont like the idea of character swamping well just dont do it ! Its that easy. I dont get how character swamping can affect someone that doesnt use it !? If you wanna go kill a boss a certain way let it be. Just dont impose your playstyle on others, that take all the fun out of a game...

If some people choose to swamp to winona just to kill bee queen and then go back to their character its there choices. The biggest problem with the playerbase atm is people value "meta, power, OP, effectivness" over FUN. You play a game to have fuuuuuuun. 

 

Sorry for my outburst but many times have i felt to say those line in one of those type of thread

 

If you don't like it don't do it has always been a weak defense. If you don't like smoking, don't do it, doesn't mean you're not going to be impacted by smoking of others around you.
At it's core there's a subjective interpretation of the importance of character choice here. Some people (myself included) think that characters should actually matter, and that the decisions you make in the game about who you play should have lasting consequences. When you make it so people can just switch whenever they feel like it removes that entire aspect of the game, which to me is something that's been lost. In certain genres I can respect that this mechanic would be more fitting, but it really does seem unnecessary in DST.
 

1 hour ago, Fidooop said:

The whole reason Klei's doing character revamps is to balance the characters all out and diversify what people play and give them more options rather than have every single server be filled with Wicker, Wigfrid, and Wolfgang. Character swapping completely tears apart that idea and people will just use a character for things they make and then swap back to the most powerful character. It's not fixing how unfun it is to play on pubs, it's just sort of reinforcing it instead.

Character swapping from what I've seen has actually only exacerbated the "meta" problem which plagues the community. People now play wickergang instead of just wicker or just wolfgang, and the meta has only gotten stronger as a result. While there's the potential for the character refreshes to change this, no one knows what the future holds after all, the point is that moonrock swapping, at least without some sort of control is not helping.

17 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Nobody is forced to use Winona's gears since there are many alternatives available, and Bernie isn't Willows perk because every character can use him as much as he/she wants to. Willow's Lighter is her perk because it's not refuelable and only Willow can cook items with it.

And it's more like if you spawned as Webber, collected Spider Eggs easily, made a sturdy Spider farm and swap later on to Wilson just to make use of that Farm as Wilson. Befriending Spiders as Webber is a way different ability and can also be achieved with a Spider Hat.

Regardless the point still stands currently that Winona is a swap character, which is clearly not the intentional design of the game. Characters are made to be played, not used as tools for people to reinforce the meta.

Honestly the only thing moonrock idols have done is take an already relatively easy game and make it even easier, which at least in my opinion is not a good thing. It's trivialized the risk of choice, and at the very least really should have at least some form of cooldown/nerf.
I digress though, the point here is that because they exist character items either have to be actually character specific otherwise they risk becoming a swap character, or the reworks should focus on actual non-transferrable mechanics of each character (which would be better in my opinion anyways for Willow).

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Viktor234    1,734

@Fidooop: Say, what are you confused about? Are Winona's Catapults 'Must Have' for you?

There are many videos on the internet which show how to defend yourself against Hounds or possibilities how to beat Bosses like Bee Queen without Catapults even before Winona has been reworked. Klei wanted to give Winona a bigger perk but also an alternative to beat Bosses, and you're complaining that this perk is available to everyone, once it has been set up. But the same goes to Wickerbottoms tactic to plant many Tentacles and to kill the Bee Queen by using the Tentacles. And players will stop swapping between Winona and any other character as soon as Winona's gear has been completly restricted to her, not because they need to pick Winona but because there are alternatives which are way better.

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Fidooop    2,584
On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 7:38 PM, Viktor234 said:

@Fidooop: Say, what are you confused about? Are Winona's Catapults 'Must Have' for you?

There are many videos on the internet which show how to defend yourself against Hounds or possibilities how to beat Bosses like Bee Queen without Catapults even before Winona has been reworked. Klei wanted to give Winona a bigger perk but also an alternative to beat Bosses, and you're complaining that this perk is available to everyone, once it has been set up. But the same goes to Wickerbottoms tactic to plant many Tentacles and to kill the Bee Queen by using the Tentacles. And players will stop swapping between Winona and any other character as soon as Winona's gear has been completly restricted to her, not because they need to pick Winona but because there are alternatives which are way better.

I feel like you're trying to suggest that I'm bad at the game and need the catapults to survive. That in fact is not the case at all, I do not rely on catapults. And by the way, the fact that Wicker also can be used as a swap character does not make this any better. I am trying to point out in the plainest speech possible that character swapping is a very bad thing. Just go back and read Mulk's last post. It touches on every bit of what I've been trying to get at. It turns characters into tools, it reinforces bad metas, it makes the game way too easy. I want characters to be unique to themselves not just tools for the "better" characters to use. That's just dumb.

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lakhnish    841

@Fidooop @Mr.Mulk Is this about character swapping that's the issue, or is it the design behind the character that doesn't promote longevity that's the real issue? Cause with character swapping, an alternative solution to any restriction you'll place on the Celestial Portal is just to have an alt account that surpasses that (though that would be a much more limited use), and kind of removes any sort of fun that I can have with the portal, which I see as a positive addition to the game.

Your preferences seems to be for playstyle characters where even if you can do a playstyle where you pick and drop a character, there's something more to them that kinda incentives you to stay as them (my preferences are similar). 

This is slightly edited version of what I wrote to another user elsewhere on what I thought about Wortox, and I hope that Klei creates more characters like Wortox in terms of design (playstyle characters, or a character with longevity, a twist to the survival experience, yada, yada):

Spoiler

 

I need to play Wortox some more, but from what I've done and seen, I can confidently say that I like Wortox. It's very evident to me that lot of thought and effort went into the design of Wortox (the devs themselves on their own stream say that as well).  

My motto for a long time has been that its players over characters, as in I'd prefer an experienced Wes over a nooby Wolfgang. It's player creativity and ingenuity that really makes the game fun and interesting, and if everyone were to choose "the trio," I'm of the firm belief that many of the cool things you can do with other characters simply wouldn't exist. Not only that, the majority of characters have a fun and unique playstyle that can be done with them if you really make use of their perks in my view. 

Wortox fulfills their goal "unique, interesting, and valuable [characters] in their own right" from their DST 2019 Roadmap, and to keep my judgement consistent and standardized, I use this expanded criteria.

  1. Unique, interesting, and valuable character in their own right. Keep it in theme with their design/archetype as much as possible.
  2. An innate ability/perk that's tied to the character, that's difficult or at least not easy to to replicate (unique), and/or can offer a different way of playing the game (this is to promote character longevity and reduce incentives to turn characters into crafting stations). Something to offset their downside possibly that is again, tied to their perks or ability.
  3.  A downside that brings a twist or challenge or something different to the survival experience. This is honestly the most difficult part to design. Some good examples are: Webber's a monster, Reduced Damage multipliers, low health pool, cant't heal from foods like Wormwood, etc.
  4. Has an appeal to both newer players and Veteran players. Both can take advantage of their perks and/or have a challenge to their downsides, though veterans are typically able to ignore downsides b/c skill and experience normally triumphs.
  5.  And of course, something balanced and fun, or at something that at least close to this as possible (ie. not a boring or bland character).

I made this criteria after Winona's rework, cause, if you're not aware, I was extremely critical of Winona's initial rework on the dev's forums. I of course knew that a balancing act was going to occur, but I predicted that even if they made balance changes to her, she would just be a bland and boring character and wouldn't really pass the criteria I listed above. 

Winona, is what I would classify as "bad OP." She still lacks perks to continue playing as her, something that could have given a twist or uniqueness to the survival experience. It's honestly better to just pick her, make catapults, and then pick a character that you think is actually fun to play as and it hurt her in terms of longevity gameplay in my view (I made that judgement after making several videos where I showcased the sheer firepower that the catapults were capable of doing, which made for boring gameplay in my opinion. And the fact that once they were down, you don't really need her really irked me). While she has more "stuff" to her, she ultimately a "miss" character as she could have been made better based on my criteria (you of course can disagree with this).

Wortox, on the other hand, would be "good OP" as he fulfills this criteria I layed out above. His souls offer an interesting dynamic to the game. I have to think about how to always have souls on hand in a variety of scenarios. His Soul Hopping ability, while being a lazy explorer, is actually fun and costs a soul to use and using an actual Lazy Explorer the same way as Wortox would be an annoying way of transportation.  

The 1/2 the healing, hunger, and sanity value of all food items is actually a rather decent downside. Half the value from food can be evident in a few situations (perogies heal and feed the same as a soul!) so you would primarily want to eat souls for hunger for 20 hunger (though doing so drops your sanity by 5) and to drop a soul to heal for 20 hp. Soul hopping itself also costs a soul per hop and since souls only stack upto 20 souls (anymore makes you drop about half of them) and the fact that you can only have souls in your hotbar means you need to do proper soul management or at least think of cool ways to indirectly expand you soul holding capacity. I could keep going, but I'll stop here.

At this point, not only does Wortox pass my criteria above while being a strong character, I can still see Wortox being a fun character to play as post balancing.

So yea, I hope that future DLC characters and character reworks pass my criteria and don't end up like Winona ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. 

 

Klei may feel differently though and designs more mechanical characters similar to Winona.¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

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