Suggestion: Research Points

[Thebadvoodoo]

Thanks for the warm welcome and the positive feedback.

Granted, the idea is something that isn't fully formed yet, but I really do think it could work. One of my favorite things about it (and something I neglected to mention in my first post) is the very natural way that it provides the user with objectives. In a game like Don't Starve, the free form nature of it is really key to how much fun it is. How you play the game is an expression of yourself - and everyone wants to express themselves.

I actually read Jamie Cheng's writeup on objectives, and I couldn't agree more. Giving a player a task in the form of researching a specific item makes sure that the player feels like it's their objective and they can complete it at their own pace, rather than something the developer told them to do.

I also like the potential of that system presenting surprising, new things to do for the player that they weren't expecting. The current system for acquiring new recipes is very deliberate - you can see exactly what you're going to research at any point, and there aren't any surprises associated with discovery. I think Jesse Schell said it best: Fun is pleasure with surprises.

(also apologies if that link to the article is broken, I'm HTMiLliterate.)

[KonradosHut]

Well, I love your idea, Thebadvoodoo. And I dare add to it one idea of my own, that I just had:

Having a "Ideas Diary", a menu where all the ideas for new items are stored, that gives you hints on how to create that item, and, once you succeed in creating it, it disappears from the Diary and appears on the building menu. Yes, it is a new menu, and might be lots of work for Klei, but this would be more user friendly than just having to keep track of what ideas the character had during your playthrough.

I don't know if I was clear enough, but that is my idea. =D

[Thebadvoodoo]

Exactly! You could have it show up as part of a research interface when you interact with the Science station that shows all the "ideas" you've had, and you could drag and drop resources on to that "idea" to devote resources to it.

[mobius187]

I'll throw in my support behind Thebadvoodoo's suggestion. Research and invention should be more natural and based on necessity, so if I spent all my days chopping down trees, wouldn't it only be natural that I would be looking for better or faster ways to accomplish said goal? Misfortunes could also prompt invention as well, for example locking the player out of any weapons, except maybe chucking stones at monsters... and then after such an encounter trying to think-up a better weapon.

I like the idea of a diary, or journal, playing a more important role in the game. It should function like the map, either with its own icon in the lower right corner. I'm split on whether or not the player should need to first invent the journal (i.e. using papyrus). But as papyrus isn't a starting-off resource that would needlessly convolute the invention process. Better to just have players start with a journal.

There was a game I played a while back that took idea words and allowed you to try and figure out connections between them. Maybe the invention process could be similar with a page of words that players actively combine. The page would start off fairly blank with a few basic necessity words like "food" and "warmth". Then as the player explores the island new words would be added based on what he comes across. Seeing trees would add the word "wood", while seeing bunnies would add "rabbits". Then the player could combine words like "food + rabbit" and the character would express his thoughts... "Maybe a trap made from twigs and grass?". Or maybe even just mention "trap" and that would add the word to the idea page so you could combine trap + rabbit to come up with rabbit traps.

The player could be alerted to the whole process with a scribbling sound, like a quill writing on parchment. Just like in the game, Amnesia.

I would also like to see the journal used as a means of studying the other beasts and monsters on the island, providing useful tips as you encounter and deal with them. It would be nice if the entries had a sketch of the creature and then scribbled (not neat) notes, with more haphazardly added over time.

[Thebadvoodoo]

The journal idea is definitely cool, but to make it a really compelling addition it should either solve a problem, or improve an existing feature that currently feels incomplete or lackluster. I like the idea of tying the map in to the journal and having it replace the map icon, and to have the map sketched out in that journal along with relevant information on other pages about creatures, items, ideas for crafting, etc. If the plan is to introduce more of a narrative later on in the game, this is an excellent place to collect that information as well.

I think that the journal actually might serve to clean up the UI a little bit. The crafting UI has certainly made me feel like it's limiting my field of view considerably, especially when I go to do something else after crafting an item (and forgetting to close that secondary column that comes up). Moving crafting to the journal UI might help keep things from feeling too claustrophobic.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Thebadvoodoo

[Excess]

Maybe the invention process could be similar with a page of words that players actively combine.

This reminds me of the alchemy type of games, where combining different "elements" result in new elements.

I would really like this implemented with the items of Don't Starve. If made graphically, one problem would be differentiating if 2 twings and 2 flint is either a shovel, a spear or a pickaxe. Perhaps, when "researching" stuff, you could also have, apart from your available items in the inventory, concepts like "hunger", "attack" or "wood" (this could be represented with words).

Throwing together twigs, flint and "attack" would yield a spear, but twigs, flint and wood would yield an axe. If there are not enough twigs, maybe Wilson could say something like "perhaps I should try with more twigs".

The first time you "discover" a recipe, it may ask for more resources than usual. But if you keep spending resources on this "machine/table/whatever" the recipes would get improved until they cost what they actually cost today. So, the more resources you gather of one type, and the more you use to "research" them, the better recipes you get with that material.

[Thebadvoodoo]

Alchemy was definitely a fun game - but I think one of the problems there might be that, at least for me, it was only really fun once. The discovery was entertaining, but beyond that it sort of lost it's appeal. I also wonder whether it'd break down the pacing that research points lend to the discovery of new, better items. What's to stop someone from just knowing all of the recipes right at the start of the game?

[mobius187]

This reminds me of the alchemy type of games, where combining different "elements" result in new elements.

Yes, this is what I imagined it would be like, however while the elements provided at the start allow the "player" to reach every single discovery what I would suggest for Don't Starve is that these basic elements would need to be discovered and examined. This would then add the word to the journal, play the scribbling noise to indicate a new word, or words, have been added and maybe even bold them when the player initially checks his journal to indicate which words were just added. Words that you haven't encountered, like say "pumpkin" would prevent you from selecting and therefore discovering how to create a pumpkin lantern, for example.

I would really like this implemented with the items of Don't Starve. If made graphically, one problem would be differentiating if 2 twigs and 2 flint is either a shovel, a spear or a pickaxe. Perhaps, when "researching" stuff, you could also have, apart from your available items in the inventory, concepts like "hunger", "attack" or "wood" (this could be represented with words).

Well we wouldn't want to go down the road set by Minecraft. And also it wouldn't so much be just about thinking about the items in your inventory, but rather what you're trying to accomplish, like cutting down a tree. Maybe one word could be "harvest" so you could choose harvest + tree (or wood), which would lead the character to comment about needing a good solid axe for the job, which would then add the template for creating an axe. You would select it and so long as you had the resource you would get your axe.

Throwing together twigs, flint and "attack" would yield a spear, but twigs, flint and wood would yield an axe. If there are not enough twigs, maybe Wilson could say something like "perhaps I should try with more twigs".

Yes, although maybe simply pondering about using those resources for a given application would be enough to allow you to realize the invention, then all you would need to do is collect them. Maybe to limit random connections certain advancements could be linked to specific creatures even, so until you meet such a creature you could never invent the item associated with it.

The first time you "discover" a recipe, it may ask for more resources than usual. But if you keep spending resources on this "machine/table/whatever" the recipes would get improved until they cost what they actually cost today. So, the more resources you gather of one type, and the more you use to "research" them, the better recipes you get with that material.

I could certainly see that, as a cost for experimentation. I always found it odd how in Kingdom of Amalur you could experiment to create potions by combining any 2-4 ingredients, but the discovered potions sometimes used more ingredients than you initially experimented with... and it does give you a potion of that type from the experiment. It would have made more sense if you had to spend 2-3 times as many of those alchemical ingredients to learn the potion and then lowered the cost of the final product from that point onwards.

I'm sure I've played another game which had a similar efficiency model, where repeating the process again and again eventually lowered the overall resource cost. But for the life of me I don't recall the name.

What's to stop someone from just knowing all of the recipes right at the start of the game?

Simply not having the "words". So until the player finds and examines certain things in the world they won't be able to realize or create certain inventions. I'm sure early on players will try to come up with inventions based on what words they discover, which is good, because it would help them uncover the basic tools the need for survival (i.e. axe, pick, shovel, torch, ect).